A quick glance at the board and I see posts asking questions about recovery. Here's a test:

Who here can read the following, a conversation between a Linguist (Noam Chomsky) and an Evolutionary Biologist (Robert Trivers) about Deceit and Deception, and NOT think about Mormonism and its people and structures?

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/noam_chomsky_robert_trivers/



For me, recovery from Mormonism is much less about not being reminded of Mormonism and far more about it not bothering me so much if I'm reminded of Mormonism.

Things remind me of Mormonism because I was once Mormon. Like a rough childhood, it is part of my experience. But unlike my rough upbringing, Mormonism very often fails to arose strong emotions either way anymore. This is after 11 years of being out.

11 Years ago this interview would have easily made me livid. I would have completely missed the points of the interview because I would have been furiously busy thinking only of myself and Mormonism. Not today. Although the interview reminded me of Mormonism, I grew livid for other reasons.

Human, recovered (but reads RfM for pleasure)

That is pretty much where I am. I am here because I like the board, not because I need it for recovery. The only time I get upset with the church is when it interfers in politics or when I have to deal with an obnoxious Mormon.Since I live in Utah, I will have to deal with that from time to time.

Ahhhh, then you really are recovered, bona dea. If I had to live in Utah I think my emotions would trigger a lot more often. Calgary has more than its fair share of Mormons, but they live and speak within a much larger, secular culture.

As to politics and religion I'm with you 100%. Like what Dagny was saying on another thread, the tax exemption thing really must go.

The politics does bother me a lot, but most of the Mormons I know are okay. As far as the tax exemption, I don't mind it providing it is only for real charity work and providing they stay out of politics.

I was going to add the disclaimer about "real charity" but then everything gets really complicated.

As to meddling in politics itself, like LDSinc did with Prop 8, that's wrong in so many ways. Even if someone was against homosexuality it wouldn't be wise to support such actions by a religious group.

I can't think of anything more American and more in the spirit of the founding of the country than the separation of Church and State. People who believe in America ought to also believe in this.

This is my personal check list.

I know I'm really out when.....
...There are no resentments, anger, regrets, or self recrimination, explosive responses, name calling, etc.

...I can live with and love Mormons and accept them like anyone else - making religion a non-issue.

...I can be kind to members, and maintain a rational relationship and friendship like everyone else. This is very important to me as I want as many positive relationships as possible. Sometimes I have to wait awhile, but I'll wait.

...I understand that Mormonism is a religion like thousands of others and it's OK to change my mind, leave it, and know I am OK and was OK all along.

...I can respect all people's rights to choose their own religion (or none) as a valid choice and honor that right.

...I love my family and friends unconditionally, regardless of their religious choices.

...I own my own power, set healthy boundaries when necessary, and take charge of my own life, living it today, not for some reward after death.

...I choose my friends regardless of their religious choices.

...I can go to an LDS church building, read their scriptures, articles, etc, attend functions associate with Mormons like anyone else.

These are all facets of how I "make peace" with Mormonism and all of my life.
There is a lot of freedom in this list.

You're right, SusieQ#1, there is a lot of freedom in your list. I like a lot of it.

I'm not quite as free as you are, alas. For example, it's still difficult for me to attend a Mormon church without having my emotions buzzed a bit. I missed the last family Mission farewell partly because I really didn't feel like putting on the suit and sitting in the pew going through the routine again. I felt a little badly because I did want to say farewell to my niece, one of my favourites, but not at the price of that Sunday routine.

I have enjoyed, upon meeting someone knew, the feeling that their religion or lack thereof is merely one small aspect of their person. Even when meeting someone overtly and perhaps even obnoxiously religious, I usually find that once that part is out of the way I can go on and discover lots of common ground. When I was Mormon religion seemed to be the only ground.

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're right, SusieQ#1, there is a lot of freedom
> in your list. I like a lot of it.

That list evolved. I have other things on it now also.
>
> I'm not quite as free as you are, alas. For
> example, it's still difficult for me to attend a
> Mormon church without having my emotions buzzed a
> bit. I missed the last family Mission farewell
> partly because I really didn't feel like putting
> on the suit and sitting in the pew going through
> the routine again. I felt a little badly because
> I did want to say farewell to my niece, one of my
> favourites, but not at the price of that Sunday
> routine.

Now days, I rarely have an opportunity to be involved in a church event. It takes time to change/ sort out our relationship with the church and what we want to participate in.
>
> I have enjoyed, upon meeting someone knew, the
> feeling that their religion or lack thereof is
> merely one small aspect of their person. Even
> when meeting someone overtly and perhaps even
> obnoxiously religious, I usually find that once
> that part is out of the way I can go on and
> discover lots of common ground. When I was Mormon
> religion seemed to be the only ground.

YES! People's religious choice is usually a very small part of any relationship. I have known people for years and still have no idea what their religious views are.

Also, I like what my "dad" said to me when I was just a kid: If you want to keep a friend, don't talk politics or religion...

My view is that if religion is that important, the relationship is probably not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2011 12:18PM by SusieQ#1.

Outstanding SuzieQ.

I would add to the list the ability to hear doctrinal nonsense and not blurt truth.

For me, this was (and is) the hardest.


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Outstanding SuzieQ.
>
> I would add to the list the ability to hear
> doctrinal nonsense and not blurt truth.
>
> For me, this was (and is) the hardest.
>
>
> Anagrammy

Ya, I've since added: Bite my tongue! :-) It has to be an "oh well" issue with me and let it go. That's the only way it works.
Besides, I am not going to get into what is "truth".... and that mess of objective, subjective, faith based, etc... truth... ARGH!! :-)

Sounds like me when I was in my 30s and a Nevermo. I want that back, but there is something in the way, and it's not just me.

Breaking the spell. Recovery is getting well. Getting back to the norm. Out of sickness, out of illusion, out of spell

Getting back to the norm, yes.

A norm, however, many of us didn't even know existed, but are so delighted that it does.

I don't say we anymore. It's them.

Perfect, wcg.

Yes, it's them. That perfectly sums up why it feels so good to be not Mormon anymore.

wine country girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't say we anymore. It's them.

Yes! I agree! I am no longer part of the "we" -- I have my own "we" now.
I am not a Mormon, not a member of the LDS Church. It is, indeed: "them" now.

He is always able to get to the underlying workings of systems of power.

I like his mention of the institutionalization of deception. TSCC has embraced PR, advertising, correlation, sanitizing its history, etc.

Their description of the us vs. them thinking is perfectly described, and I believe worse in organizations like TSCC where children are indoctrinated from birth to believe they are in the "one true church".

This observation by Robert Trivers is great:

RT:..."There’s evidence suggesting that when you’re contemplating something—whether or marry Suzy, for instance—you’re in a deliberative stage. And you are considering options more or less rationally.
Now, once you decide to go with Suzy, you’re in the instrumental phase; you don’t want to hear about the negative side. Your mood goes up, and you delete all the negative stuff and you’re just, “Suzy’s the one.”

Some people in TSCC never leave that phase.

Part of my leaving included not only deconstructing gawd, but having events reveal to me what I had not seen clearly before - that TSCC operates like any other corrupt power structure. I always observed systems of power, but it was observing how TSCC operated when faced with internal corruption, that made me start turning my normal analysis on TSCC.

A lot of people live in denial about TSCC, which I think they describe well in this discussion, and some live a charmed life, and rarely experience first hand how corrupt TSCC is. If they surround themselves with the "proper" profit-recommended things, and influence i.e. propaganda, they will not question much.

LD$ will likely continue to have long lasting effects in my life, so will probably always trigger PTSD.

It is also difficult to recover when I see the temple, and the missionaries, and propaganda facade TSCC has built up around SLC. I know what they really are, and I know what they say they are. I will always be disturbed by that.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2011 04:47PM by atheist&happy:-).

Some of my favorite things to read are discussions Chomsky has with other people.

Pretty much any form of government deception could be applied to the morg. They are masters at it, as are most propagandists.

Nice find man.

My recovery has progressed quickly. First I was scared of the fall out, embarrassed at leaving, then paranoid, hiding from members in the grocery store, thinking they were after me, then questioning my own common sense of how I could have ever bought in, loneliness of no one who could relate to me, repulsed, feeling sick every time I saw a guy in the garments under the white shirt and tie, defensive when preached to by my husband or other family members, and now I am on the cusp of not caring either way about any of it.