More faith-based hate from Tennessee.

What "faith" compels you to force your way into a child's home, break into their room, and drag them away into foster care to force them to become what the regime wants them to be? Do you think you are "saving" them? If they die, will you persuade yourself that it was "God's will" and they weren't fit to live anyway?

This is not a dystopian fantasy. This is happening right here and now in the United States Of America.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/88gyev/cops-trans-girl-twitch-stream

Police officers entered the bedroom of a 16-year-old trans girl in Tennessee while she played Minecraft live on Twitch in late April—and the confrontation was caught live on stream.
The streamer, a girl named Wynn who goes by VioWynn on Twitch, in an email to Motherboard said she was pressured to do online school rather than attend in person, and that she has refused to go to the online school and thus has been considered “truant.”
In a recording of the stream, Wynn says, "This will probably be the last stream ever because they're trying to get me to either kill myself or go into foster care or something. Instead of just giving me an education. Honestly, I just want to go to school. But they don't want me to go to school because I'm trans. I'm just really stressed out."

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/human-rights-campaign-condemns-tennessee-gov-bill-lee-for-enacting-needless-law-to-perpetuate-discrimination-against-transgender-students

In the last three years, anti-LGBTQ groups and politicians have singled out transgender kids to deny them access to gender-affirming medical treatment, prevent them from participating in sports teams consistent with their gender identity, and deny access to bathrooms. 2020 set a record number for anti-transgender bills filed with 79 bills, largely focused on attacking transgender youth; 2021 surpassed that record with 147 such bills filed in 34 states. 2022 is on track to surpass that record yet again. For transgender youth – who are simply trying to navigate their adolescence – to bear the weight of these attacks year after year, this legislation takes a toll. Politicians are culpable for the harms they inflict by continuing to consider bills that target transgender youth.


https://medium.com/perceive-more/god-of-hate-a-brief-history-of-transphobia-in-british-evangelicalism-92512d15f94c

https://rewirenewsgroup.com/article/2014/09/09/conservative-christians-fear-transgender-identity/

Accepting the very existence of trans people is an act that threatens conservative Christians (and Mormons) image of God.

The Bible doesn’t speak directly to transgender identity. So leaders on the religious right get around this by conflating non-binary gender with sexual sin—namely, “sexual immorality,” a vague umbrella term covering everything from sex outside of marriage to homosexual acts. Gender, in the eyes of evangelicals, determines sexuality: If you are a man, it is your God-given role to marry and bed a woman. If you are a woman, you are to submit yourself to your husband. All other deviations from this norm are sin.

Without fixed gender, one’s sexuality is therefore unstable. And fixed sexual and gendered roles are a necessity for the evangelical vision of family and church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 04:15AM by anybody.

But they are against governmental intrusion into our personal lives. Oh, wait...

Religion is just a tool for them, nothing more than a means to an end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 10:04AM by anybody.

Got that, sls

Wow. That poor kid.

Maybe that is the same kind of faith that compelled religions to go take Native American kids to "help" fix them.

Those folks are always looking for witches to torture.

I am so sorry for her.

Just like with racial segregation, the times ARE gonna change, but it's going to take awhile (especially in states like Tennessee).

What if Youth Services took a teenage girl into foster care because her parents were scheduling her for a clitorectomy (female genital mutilation)? Is it right for us to impose our cultural norms on this family?

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if Youth Services took a teenage girl into
> foster care because her parents were scheduling
> her for a clitorectomy (female genital
> mutilation)? Is it right for us to impose our
> cultural norms on this family?

This is an excellent question, caffiend.

There is an unnoticed (and misleading) conflation going on here between family values and rights (on the one hand), and the separate and individual rights of an individual person (on the other hand).

Different individuals, different families, and different religious and cultural groups all have their own rights, and IRL these rights frequently conflict with each other. What the USA has done is to look to law as the primary "reflex" when these kinds of conflicts appear.

There is frequently some necessary "give" in the interpretation of laws which directly affect individual persons--especially in the years between childhood and adulthood, which are particularly vulnerable since both cultural and legal standards are constantly, and independently, evolving from "what once was" to "this moment, right now." Usually, some kind of legal procedure decides what is most beneficial to the individual and to society at large.

One possible remedy would be Legal Emancipation, where the trans teenager could be deemed an adult for whatever specific reasons the court finds both fair and beneficial.

In the case of clitorectomy (Female Genital Mutilation for religious or cultural reasons), the absolutely permanent results of the procedure are so dire that American law cannot fully respond except by prohibiting the entire procedure (absent medical emergency situations, etc.).

Both of the situations cited are deeply misogynistic, and--given the situation(s) as presented, neither should be allowed to stand.

hopefully these kidknappers will not mutilate this girl's clitorus ~



sending thoughts and prayers ~

Forced FGM and puberty blockers have nothing to do with each other.

One takes away agency, the other provides it.

It's the same as the parents telling the child "you be you. You decide what you want to be."

No surgery happens until the child is of legal age (16-18), and before that happens, there is psychological screening and evaluation as well as other medical testing. It's not about the kid wanting to be a dog or a cat. This is persistent and permanent.

And before you start the "parents making the kids do it" thing, that's impossible.

The was a famous case from Canada on PBS about a male infant raised as a girl after the infants's genitals were either deformed or damaged and converted into female. Parts are not the brain, however and just as you can't make a left handed person become right handed, you can't make someone with a female brain male or vice versa.

Brain body mismatch does happen, so allowing trans kids to grow up and physically be what their brains are telling them is no different from correcting a cleft palate or scoliosis — or are you going to say those are "God's will" too...

What the hell kind of question is that? Do you seriously think anyone on this board would think that genital mutilation of a woman is morally defensible?

You're just attempting more equivocation: it's okay if caffiend's people abuse a trans kid because non-caffiend's people mutilate little girls. Except they don't.

Absurd.

We've seen this movie before. It's called "Saving Alex".

Sounds interesting, I have not seen it. I will keep an eye open.

The weird thing is that public school teachers of pre-adolescents and adolescents are well used to accommodating kids who often dress in strange ways, have odd hairstyles and hair dyes, multiple piercings, jewelry, etc. It goes with the territory. So, what's one more difference?

Ask the fundies why.

https://yesterdaytoday.net/2022/01/01/32-fascinating-photographs-showing-life-of-students-at-new-trier-high-school-in-winnetka-illinois-in-1950/

I used to be so jealous of the boys, who could wear jeans and tee shirts to school while we girls were forced to wear dresses or else skirts/blouses (both of which I loathed.)

I have kept maybe a half dozen dresses in my closet for the odd occasion when I need one, and a black suit that is reserved for funerals. (And yes, they all still fit.)

Nazi Germany is back among us. The modern version of the gestapo is alive and well and active.
Self serving forceable interference groups are among us.
WATCH OUT!!!! WE ARE ALL IN DANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm guessing the schools have failed, they're suppose to get everyone to comply to societal norms and learn proper etiquette in the work place, how to take orders and obey management, and look alike,, unusual genders may cause this girl to be outcast, and have no friends or be able to have a successful career, I hope people will accept her. But I don't have much faith in american society. She's in for a tough situation.

I heard a clip today of one of Tucker Carlson's old Replacement Theory rants. He claimed that the Democratic Party wants to bring in new voters who "have limited education and can't speak English."

I thought it was a foolish idea, since having more Maca's in the United States couldn't possibly help the Dems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2022 05:24PM by Lot's Wife.

I can change. I favor Trans-rights in general.

There is one area I do NOT favor Trans-rights.

I was an athelete in school. One sport was Track. I was one of the fastest sprinters (years ago). I could NOT beat the boys. Even the slowest member of their sprint team could beat me (I might be able to beat other track members who were boys, but not those on the sprint team).

I think girls who transition to boys should have no restrictions on sports.

Boys who transition to girls should NEVER be allowed to do woman's sports. They have a physical advantage that won't go away, even with other transitions.

I don't have a problem with most of the rest of their platform, but this one issue WILL make me side with those opposed to what the Trans-rights are pushing.

I think it is against woman's rights which we fought to gain for decades. I think it is against women in general.

As a former athlete, I agree.

I have no problem with any of the Trans Agenda (if there is such a thing) other than in sports. The notion that equalizing hormone levels will compensate for the additional stature and the neurological patterns previously established through training as a male at higher speeds and strength levels is preposterous.

Trans people should be given meaningful sports opportunities--I don't know how--but not at the expense of the half of humanity for whom Title IX was a rare success.

I only skied. So did my brother. I could never keep up with his increased strength and fast-twitch muscles.

Watch skiers on a field of moguls--The difference between men and women is amazing. This is one venue where fast-twitch muscles are easily recognized and noticeably more common to men.

It's not just the fast-twitch fibers. The broader shoulders create a better counterpoise and enable sharper changes of direction in moguls. That's an advantage that will not be altered by subsequent hormone therapy.

Sounds like you're a skier. :D

This is about forced puberty, just like the fundies forcing pregnant people to give birth.

If a trans female athlete never had the "advantages" you speak of, the situation never arises. Trans boys never have breasts or a feminine figure, and trans girls never have a male figure.

So why do the fundies want to stop trans girls from looking like girls?

It's no different from the Taliban forcing men to grow beards and women to wear burkas -- only in this case, it's about denying medical treatment. Also, a lot of the rw fundie male politicans don't want to "wonder" about what they see when they are doing what they do with lad's mags. That's a big part of this -- notice their silence about trans men. They aren't seen as a "threat" to male sexuality.

I don't understand what you mean by "forced puberty."

Was "forced old age" imposed upon me? If so, I'm mad as hell.

Can you explain that a little better ?

Forget Christine Jorgensen or Caitlyn Jenner.

My dad was a forensic pathologist. Before age 10, there's not a lot difference between girls and boys bodies, and it's very difficult to tell decomposed bodies of young children apart. Before that age, kids have the same hormonal levels, The big increase of testosterone in boys doesn't happen until around age 11.

For about the last thirty years or so, transgender kids don't have to go through body changes caused by puberty.

###

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075

Transgender and gender-diverse children might choose to temporarily suppress puberty through the use of prescription medications called pubertal blockers. But deciding to get this treatment is a big step.

The medications mostly commonly used to suppress puberty are known as gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues. Here's what you need to know about the benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

What do pubertal blockers do?
Puberty's physical changes can cause intense distress for many gender-nonconforming adolescents. When taken regularly, GnRH analogues suppress the body's release of sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen, during puberty.

Sex hormones affect:

Primary sex characteristics. These are the sexual organs present at birth, including the penis, scrotum and testicles and the uterus, ovaries and vagina.
Secondary sex characteristics. These are the physical changes in the body that typically appear during puberty. Examples include breast development and growth of facial hair.
In those identified as male at birth, GnRH analogues decrease the growth of facial and body hair, prevent voice deepening, and limit the growth of genitalia.

In those identified as female at birth, treatment limits or stops breast development and stops menstruation.

###

So what happens is that when these kids grow up, they will be virtually indistinguishable from their cisgendered peers. Transgender females who never went through male puberty won't have wide shoulders, male bone structure, an Adam's apple, deep chest, etc. You can't tell, and unless they tell you, you'll never know, and once they get to be of legal age and have surgery, only a good gynecologist will know.


So, as I said, why are fundies in red states dragging these kids from their homes or not allowing them to become what they want to be? In doing so, they are forcing them to have all the secondary sex characteristics that you are taking about so you can tell the difference, and, since genital surgery cannot correct that, in essence fundies are marking them for life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 07:14AM by anybody.

What you say is both factually correct and irrelevant to the topic at hand. We are not talking about puberty blockers. We are discussing sports.

The fact that extremists want to use the issue to promote their agenda does not obviate the problems that women athletes face. Tying the latter to the former as if they are necessarily connected is caffiendian logic.

I would bet that there are already trans female athletes who have never had male puberty who are active now -- and we just don't know about it. Nor should we. It's none of our business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 05:01PM by anybody.

I could not disagree more. Sport functions under the assumption that doping is prohibited and hence that WADA and other agencies have not just the right but the responsibility to monitor athletes' exposure to hormones and drugs. Your views would render such monitoring, and hence fair sports, impossible.

I concur with you on the general issue of trans rights, but I think you are way off the mark on both trans athletes and the authority of monitoring bodies to force athletes to pee in a cup.

Again I ask -- Where's the advantage?

If an adult trans woman who never had male puberty, had surgery, and no longer makes any testosterone, never had at any point during her lifetime average male testosterone levels, and has her drug levels maintained in the same range and checked as other female athletes, where's the advantage?

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If an adult trans woman who never had male
> puberty, had surgery, and no longer makes any
> testosterone, never had at any point during her
> lifetime average male testosterone levels, and has
> her drug levels maintained in the same range and
> checked as other female athletes, where's the
> advantage?

There would not be any advantage in that scenario.

But that's irrelevant since the scenario does not presently exist. Kathleen and I were addressing the problem of trans women, who have been through puberty as males, competing against women who have been women their whole lives.

Your analysis avoids the problem by keeping the predicate but changing the subject.

You can argue about adult transitioning transgender women in sport, fine.

But they will be the exception rather than the rule as more parents allow their children to transition early before puberty.

Precisely. The problem may well go away.

But we were not discussing what happens after the problem goes away, we were talking about the situation now. The women who are displaced by Lia Thomas and trans women like her suffer unfair discrimination now and for some years to come.

Put differently, the fact that Vladimir Putin will ultimately fall from power is of no help to Ukraine today.

I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I realize that the right wing has seized on this issue, but that doesn't mean I have to abandon facts and assume the opposite position just because I dislike the right wing.

The bottom line is that people who go through puberty as men have structural advantages in many (but not all) sports due to their skeletal development. People who train as men for multiple years develop additional advantages in terms of the neurological pathways that most sports require. Hormone therapy can neutralize the muscular and some other advantages, but it doesn't reverse the skeletal or the full set of neurological benefits.

The result is that trans women enjoy a significant athletic advantage in many (but not all) sports relative to people who have spent their entire lives as women. It follows that if you think people who have spent their whole lives as women should be able to compete fairly, they should not be forced to compete with trans women who bring to the field of play a number of traits that other women do not have.

I have said before, and I say again, that trans women should be able to compete in high-level sports. That is a problem whose solution I do not know. But I'm not going to pretend that female hormones will narrow a previously male person's shoulders or shrink her height. That's just nonsense.

And I repeat: this has nothing to do with what trans women "look like." Fundies can do what they want. Like you, I think trans women should be trans women; they should look how they want to look. But that is not the same thing as saying it is fair to let trans women compete in sports with lifelong women, a group who have also suffered significantly from discrimination.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 04:23AM by Lot's Wife.

The problem is the puberty blocker effect is irreversible per the article you cited. Children, puberty age, don’t always make good decisions for themselves, which is why they don’t buy cars. And there are are good reasons you can’t legally tattoo a minor, at least not in the state of California.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 11:12PM by Kathleen.

Puberty blockers? Seriously? To children? Adults doing that to children? I can't even imagine the serious consequences down the line. Channeling Mengale?

Seems like you would do anything at all anybody, no holds barred, to make sure trans women can compete against women in sports. Your extreme need for this at any cost to anyone is scary as hell.

Yes, it's scary as hell.

>
> Seems like you would do anything at all anybody,
> no holds barred, to make sure trans women can
> compete against women in sports. Your extreme
> need for this at any cost to anyone is scary as
> hell.

No, I didn't say that.

I did say trans people should be treated equally and fairly just like everyone else.

I also said in a previous discussion about this that allowing adult trans women who never had male puberty to compete would be a possible compromise.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Puberty blockers? Seriously? To children?
> Adults doing that to children? I can't even
> imagine the serious consequences down the line.
> Channeling Mengale?
>
> Seems like you would do anything at all anybody,
> no holds barred, to make sure trans women can
> compete against women in sports. Your extreme
> need for this at any cost to anyone is scary as
> hell.

https://xtramagazine.com/power/activism/parent-trans-kid-investigated-219289


I am the proud mother of three beautiful children, and my oldest was 10 the first time we were reported for so-called “child abuse.” Today, that child, Rebekah is a 15-year-old honours student. ...Her teachers tell us all the time that she’s exceptional, and we can’t argue with them. She also happens to be transgender.

Rebekah wasn’t always the happy, thriving kid she is now. She struggled deeply with anxiety and depression until she socially transitioned seven years ago. ...

...That didn’t prevent Child Protective Services (CPS) from showing up at our door one afternoon in August 2017. Likely due to our public advocacy, someone had anonymously made a report claiming that we were “forcing” our child to be a girl.

...Research indicates alarming rates of anxiety and depression for trans young people, but that’s not because there is something wrong with them—it’s because of the exclusion and discrimination they face in society. Like all kids, trans youth need to be loved and seen by their communities. They thrive when they have access to affirming families, safe schools, appropriate medical care and opportunities to be a part of a team with their peers. ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2022 02:10AM by Tevai.

Putting aside our disagreement about sports, let me say how much I admire you and your husband for doing what is right. It doesn't surprise me in the least but your daughter and her siblings are fortunate to have you as parents, as are we to have you as a fellow poster.

Anybody, I wish you had told us this before. I still think puberty blockers are dangerous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 08:39PM by Kathleen.

Whether dangerous or not is a separate question. You and I are talking about whether trans women now should be competing against cis-women now.

Only if women can to the Russian kick dance.

:-)

If you mean hopak women can. Millions of years ago I could. Hell on the knees.

anybody this violates copyright. You are going to get CZ in trouble. This is not OK. You need to edit your post.

"Due to copyright considerations please post links to articles and do NOT copy the articles themselves. I few sentences from an article is ok, as long as you credit the source, but wholesale copying is not proper even if the source is acknowledged. Unfortunately, posts that contain all (or almost all) of an article will be deleted."

Fortunately, there is hope that things will improve as more people gain understanding. I enjoyed the recent Canada's Got Talent performances of Kellie Loder who is open about being trans. I admire her for being so open on the public stage. Also, the fact that the producers of CGT obviously had no issue with showcasing a trans contestant. Who happened to come in second overall, so yay for Canadian voters as well.


https://www.folkharbour.com/teams/kellie-loder/

“Kellie Loder is a Juno-nominated singer-songwriter from Badger, NL. She writes immensely poignant lyrics and sets them amidst dazzling melodies. Combining profoundly emotional stories with sparkling anecdotes, it seems that if she isn’t breaking your heart, she is splitting your sides. Raised in a family where music was ever-present, Kellie was part of a drumming ensemble at age 10 years, started playing guitar at 14, and began writing songs a few years later. She wrote 11 songs for her debut recording, The Way, released 2009.”


https://www.socanmagazine.ca/features/kellie-loder-making-spiritual-music-for-all-ears/

"When Kellie Loder was 14, their (Loder uses gender-neutral pronouns) older cousin died in a car accident. Inspired by a poem a friend had written in his honour, Loder decided to try setting the words to music – and quickly found their calling.
“I realized I could write songs,” they say. “From there it snowballed into me being a songwriter. I knew early on that I felt so much joy from writing songs.”

"Raised in a religious household in rural Newfoundland, Loder, 32, used their writing to make sense of their world, including their own sexuality. “Being a closeted Christian person who grew up in a very strict Christian home, it was my only outlet,” they say.

"At the same time, however, Loder’s spiritual and musical worlds were deeply connected: as a two-year-old, they learned rhythm from banging on church pews during church services, and by 10 they were playing drums in the church band: “That’s basically where I learned to play music.”


https://www.saltwire.com/atlantic-canada/lifestyles/newfoundlands-kellie-loder-finishes-as-runner-up-in-canadas-got-talent-100734384/

"Newfoundland's Kellie Loder made it all the way to the final two in "Canada's Got Talent" before losing to Quebec's Jeanick Fournier in the finale on Tuesday, May 17.
Loder was one of six to hit the stage in a two-hour season-ending episode on CityTV.

"They performed an original track titled “Molded Like A Monster."


Here’s the original song Kellie sang in the finale of Canada’s Got Talent:

If I was molded like a monster
Would you blame me for droppin' bombs
Upon buildings far away in places I've never heard of
If I was raised to be a saint to never do anything wrong
Would you be mad at me if I explored new things
If I was told that God loves some
But he hates the ones outside
Outside boxes we've created
Initiated with our lies
Would you blame me for my judgment if the mold of me is not mine
If I had no choice to not hear the noise

Singin' oh my goodness
We keep making this promise to destroy one another
To destroy
Singin' oh my goodness
We are more the same than different
Cut the noise
Oh crack the code
Break the mold

If I was drowning in a river or I was stranded on a track
Would you remember I was human or would you turn your back
Would you ask me to recite a little verse, a couple lines
Before I was worthy of your saving
Before you would let me die

Singin' oh my goodness
We keep making this promise to destroy one another
To destroy
Singin' oh my goodness
We are more the same than different
Cut the noise
Oh crack the code
Break the mold

All we wanna do is break the mold
All we wanna do is bend the light
All we wanna do is break the mold
All we wanna do is end the fight

If I was born into the world a boy but I felt the girl inside
Would you ridicule my choices or undress me with your eyes
Would you march within the hate parade or stand and hold a sign
That says there's only hate for me and that I should take my life

Singin' oh my goodness
We keep making this promise to destroy one another
To destroy
Singin' oh my goodness
We are more the same than different
Cut the noise
Oh crack the code
Break the mold

If I was molded like a monster
Would you blame me for dropping bombs
Upon buildings far away in places I've never heard of

-----

Imagine having to grow up trans in a strict religious environment and having the courage to speak out to the world. These phrases in the song in particular are so poignant:

If I was raised to be a saint to never do anything wrong
Would you be mad at me if I explored new things
If I was told that God loves some
But he hates the ones outside
Outside boxes we've created
Initiated with our lies
Would you blame me for my judgment if the mold of me is not mine

If I was born into the world a boy but I felt the girl inside
Would you ridicule my choices or undress me with your eyes

-----

Born a boy but I felt the girl inside – wow.

As stated in the first article linked above:

“In their 2018 tune “Molded Like a Monster,” for example, Loder explores the pain of being born into a world where you don’t feel you fit, and about what might happen if love were allowed to triumph over hate.”

Indeed.

God is Love, so they say.


Ps. 139: 13, 14:

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.


Genesis 1: 26, 27:

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.



Made in the image of God. You knit me together. I am fearfully and wonderfully made.


So why do we, especially as Christians, want to deny, ostracize, condemn, hate those who are different from us.

If we're all made in the image.

I wonder.


Meanwhile, I have nothing but admiration for Kellie for their talent and their courage. And for likely being a formidable agent of change.

Sad :(

Many Americans WANT TO BE free...
BUT, they don't want OTHERS to be!

It's a paradox. A juxtaposition. A catch-22.

It's (supposed to be) LOVE, not Fear, Hate & Intolerance. Everyone is supposed to be FREE!