and this is even more acute in an insular social world like Mormonism.

No need to post links here -- there are a plethora of news stories full of acrimony and vitriol. Reading them is like a master class in denial, indirection, and obfuscation...anything to avoid calling out the elephant in the room -- racism.

My story was similar -- an outsider who was going to marry into an old family and "steal" the favorite son -- only in my case they made him call it off.

Many families will be going through the same kind of drama over the holidays from now on and into the future. It's not worth disowning or shunning people over it.

Think about it first so you won't regret it later.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2022 03:02PM by anybody.

can y'all feel / smell that there christmas spirit ? ~



ziller knows y'all can ~

My own opinion is that while there are *a few* members of the extended royal family and household who are racist (probably some of the older members,) it's by no means all of them. If Meghan got into trouble with the royals, it might have been her personality as much as anything. And I think that it's a very tough family to marry into. Kate had a very long period to adjust, an amount of time that Meghan never had.

I also think there are (at least) two sides to every story, and we're only hearing one side of it. So I'm taking whatever Harry and Meghan say with a very large grain of salt.

I totally agree with you, summer. There are always at least three sides to any situation.

I also agree that shunning is very hurtful and damaging. My husband lost 15 years with one of his daughters and even more with the other because of shunning. It’s a terrible waste.

Unlike Harry and Megan it's likely those families won't have millions of dollars to sooth their way through the drama.

Exactly. A lot of people would love to "suffer" in a multi-million dollar Montecito home. Harry most likely has come out ahead with the settlement his dad gave him, along with the couple's ability to negotiate business deals. It's not like the "spares" automatically have a huge source of income independent of their royal roles.

Imagine planning to go meet your bf/gf's family for thanksgiving or christmas, and when you get there they slam the door in your face.


That may or may not have happened in the Sussex's case, but that's the kind of thing I'm talking about happening to regular people with hating families or relatives.


I don't think all the money on Earth could make that kind of hurt go away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2022 06:27PM by anybody.

I think it would likely have been better for them if they had not agreed to all the extra publicity. Much of it they can't avoid but some of it they do control.

It's wince-y when anybody comes across as over-sharing. In their case, unfortunately, it's easy for people to lack sympathy because they have money and fame, especially without seeming to have done much of anything to earn it. Accident of birth in the case of members of the Royal family, which is seen by many as unfair right at the starting gate. It's understandable that many would see that in a negative light and call them whiny, among other negative terms.

I don't really understand what they were thinking in baring their lives to the public like this. It's so entirely predictable that they will get skewered, as is occurring at this very moment. I'm not even paying much attention to it and yet the publicity and the sound bites are everywhere.

I've heard some most unkind comments from newsreaders and opinionators and onlookers. I don't think it's necessary to get so personal, if not absolutely catty, as some of them have done, especially about Meghan.

I don't think it's possible to know the truth entirely, particularly from a distance.

I have no idea about the racism question. I would hope it isn't true but it likely is a factor with some people. Who those people would be (Harry's family?) I don't think we can know, absent irrefutable proof, such as a voice recording. And, of course, the lady-in-waiting, or whoever, who just had to resign due to a comment she ill-advisedly made.

I don't think there was nearly as much fuss about who Harry may marry as there would have been about William because in quick order Harry is quite a distance from even a chance of ever becoming King, but as one of Princess Diana's sons of course the interest never wanes, unfortunately for him.

Against my better judgement I've just started watching the Netflix series The Crown about Queen Elizabeth's accession to the throne and her reign. I can't stand gossip and also, without even trying, I had heard uninspiring reviews of the series. But I succumbed to curiosity and have watched nearly the whole of the first series (one more program to go). I'm not overwhelmed by it. I think the characterization of Prince Phillip, for one, is appalling. He's a puny whiny temperamental guy in the show who so far is doing nothing at all of any use to man or beast. I'll stop there with my amateur review. Except to say that if in truth they all hate their roles so much why don't they just call it a day. That whole thing about sense of duty seems to be dying out anyway.

What does tug at my heart is the thought of Harry, who lost his mother at such a young age (for them both) which, obviously, was completely devastating, feeling fearful that the same fate could befall his wife. It would be understandable that he would be vigilant about that over and above all else. I didn't follow all the various ins and outs of it all but when they first moved to Canada and then the USA it was fairly unbelievable that they couldn't automatically get the protection they needed for the risks their high profiles posed. I understand that taxpayers in both countries had questions about the expense of it, as did the British public likely (if they were or would be paying even if the couple was living away from there). It came across as harsh though - stay in Britain or we won't provide protection, even though Harry is a son of the King and the brother of the future King so would likely face some degree of risk.

I think that if Harry had valid concerns about his wife's safety, which many experts say he did, given what happened to Princess Diana (dying as she was trying to get away from the ravenous press pack that was following her) it's obvious why he would be so protective of Meghan and outraged about the situation.

Who knows when they decided to speak out or what all has caused them to want to spill their guts. Maybe that oppressive British imperative to keep a stiff upper lip no matter what was just too difficult in light of what they were experiencing.

It's a certainty that both Diana's sons were, of course, very deeply affected by her sudden death and its a sorrow they will carry for their entire lives, certainly and understandably. It seems like Harry is living through that trauma all over again. Whether it's justified by events or not, who knows, but certainly it's understandable that it would prey on his mind.

I feel for him as a person that he seems to be reliving that acute pain.

What all the ins and outs of all the publicity are I'm not up on that, not having watched their series. It's a bit disturbing that it's being covered on major newscasts. Exhibit 1 in their claim that they can't live a private life.

But on the other side of that is the fact, as many vocal critics are clamouring about, they are choosing to ramp up the publicity and coverage for their series and other endeavours.

So who really knows. Except them. I just hope things end up well for them. And their kids. So far, even from a distance and not following all the noise, it's a bit of a circus, for sure.

As for family drama, yeah, it's that time of year. Unavoidable in many cases. Too bad, but life is apparently like that.

Lots of people are not welcomed into a family for a lot of different reasons. I am sorry that happened to you. In a situation with so many people involved there are going to be even more than two sides. Problem #1 is that they got married much too quickly. Supposedly William warned him about that. Kate started with a better idea and they still took YEARS before they made a final decision. That was one of the big problems with Diana too, not understanding the position they were getting into. On one hand they want privacy and on the other they keep making themselves public and making money that way. She is an actress and he doesn't have a lot of marketable skills so they are trading on what they have. A lot of things they have said have been proven false, who is to know about a lot of the others. They made a big stink about Queen Elizabeth not wanting pictures taken. Turns out they were not just talking about pics of the kids with Granny, they wanted their professional Netflix photographers given access. And that just wasn't going to happen for obvious reasons. A big stink is being made about Kate not wanting to hug her the first time she met her. So what? She didn't know her. I don't hug people I don't know. From the clip I saw she didn't understand protocol and didn't make an attempt to learn at least in the beginning and Harry didn't prepare her for what would be expected. You meet the Queen of England, you curtsey. Then there was the deal about the available tiaras when they got married. The Queen decides not the bride and there are people involved and ways things are done. Throwing a fit and making demands doesn't work or endear you to those involved.

Racism is an easy answer to a complex situation. More so when only one side is being made public and the money is being made from it being sensationalized.

It is not just a family affair. They have thrown the underpinnings of the UK under the bus with their long planned and premeditated attacks. I believe it will be a long way and a long time before forgiveness, if they ever seek it, is given by the British people. Harry has dropped from third in line to the throne (when the Queen was alive) to 5th and as William and Kate's children grown the news focus will shift farther and farther from him.

I was trying to say parents and grandparents should think twice about rejecting or disowning children or grandchildren because they are in "socially unacceptable" marriages, LGBTQIA+, etc. and using Harry and Meghan as examples.


Harry isn't the only royal who has gone through this, nor is he the first to marry a black or mixed-race person. Archduke Francis Ferdinand had to agree to a "morgantic" marriage as his Czech wife Sophie was not considered fit to be the future Empress of Austria. Prince Maximilian of Liechtenstein married an Afro-Panamanian commoner. Alexandre Coste is the son of Prince Albert II of Monaco and a former Afro-French air hostess. Ceawlin Thynn, 8th Marquess of Bath (whose father was a notorious polygamist), married Emma McQuinston, Afro-British mixed race daughter of a Nigerian oil billionaire.


My opinion is that jealousy and infighting came first and the racism came second. The handsome second son and his "exotic" mixed-race American wife couldn't be allowed to outshine the heir to the throne and his family, and racism was the weapon to use against them.


Years from now, I think they (Harry's relatives) will deeply regret all of this -- which is the point I'm trying to make.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2022 10:01AM by anybody.

If race was a problem they would not have married with approval in the first place. No evidence of racism has been presented.

Thank you Kentish.


I respect some like I did the Queen but the only ones I actually like are the HRH Corgies. And I don't find the Royals situation as particularly applicable to to anyone else's. They are secretive beyond words and no one knows the truth but them perhpas.

I watched the Crown. Full of speculation and artistic license and I have read in depth articles by historian type people who explain what in the series is true and what is either twisted for artistic reasons or made up. My other half is a Royalist and he despises what Harry had done.

The press we get is just the bits and pieces that become evident accidentally or from reading between the lines when all the lines are not even present to be read between-- because besides Harry and Meghan the other Royals are not parading all their personal information to the public. They take a much classier approach.

We do not know what was said or done. We weren't there. We do not know what is in any of the Royals Hearts. Harry and Meghan wanted a bigger lime light than they were getting because of station? Me reading between the lines is that playing the racism card is such an easy ploy nowadays. Why not use it? Why not blame that for everything? They didn't want their royal duties so they don't get their royal titles or the bucks that come with it. Perhaps that really is all it is. So they sit to the side at the funeral because that is how Royalty works.


Harry and Meghan are cashing in by telling "their side" of the story. Every day in this world people leave their families for good reason and just get on with life. I am tired of their "poor little me" stance. I suspect they may have been insufferable and racism had nothing to do with any of it.

Royalty is a job. A hard job.



In the gooey Christmas shows on TV there is always family drama and then at the end all is wonderful as they come together. Well at least with the Royals they are not pretending all had a happy ending. They are a mess like everyone else but more elegant about it.

In the end family rejection happens every day. You don't need to wait for Christmas. Like a lot of gay people do any day of the year, you can just choose a new family rather than start a war of revenge.

But I'm odd. I gave up on acceptance a long long time ago and found it ultimately freeing.

I can respect individual contributions from members of the RF but to me my total respect is to the institution of the Crown which represents the established order of things in the United Kingdom. It is the underpinning of the British system, the constant that holdsl everything else together and its power lies not in power wielded but I power denied. "God Save the King. Send him victorious, happy and glorious..." means that we all will be so blessed. I hear Americans talk of the Constitution being a "living document". Whoever sits on the throne is Britain's actual living document. That's my poor attempt to explain it all. So, if when or until things change "God Save the King!"

Not a poor attempt at all. Gives me a much better understanding of why most of Britain still want their Royals.

I don't know what went wrong within Harry's immediate family (Charles/Camilla, and William/Kate,) but I have no reason to believe that racism played any part. I did believe the rumors that Meghan was not at all nice to her staff. I also think that long before Harry and Meghan made the decision to move away to Canada and the U.S., they may have had very different ideas for how they wanted to proceed with their lives. And that's not going to fly with the royal family.

Also, while the press can be brutal, they could have chosen to put their heads down and plow on through it. If the royals do their jobs properly, and show caring and concern for the British people, IMO eventually the press will come around. Surely Meghan knew that this wouldn't be a cakewalk?

I don't like when the royal family is dragged down unnecessarily, and I don't like what Harry and Meghan are doing. Hopefully having had their vent, they can eventually proceed to live their lives as they wish in a *much* quieter fashion.

"Surely Meghan knew that this wouldn't be a cakewalk?" Nailed it.

I think Meghan (And Harry) is very definition of "Having your cake and eating it too".

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and this is even more acute in an insular social
> world like Mormonism.

It's ironic how Mormonism is all about the family - until it isn't. You have to toe the line or get punished in some form or another for not doing so.

It's a powerful strategy to keep people from leaving the fold out of fear of being judged and shunned by most, including family.


> My story was similar -- an outsider who was going
> to marry into an old family and "steal" the
> favorite son -- only in my case they made him call
> it off.

Ouch. I guess the reflex would be to say he wasn't worth as much as you thought if he buckled under their pressure but still it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.


> Many families will be going through the same kind
> of drama over the holidays from now on and into
> the future. It's not worth disowning or shunning
> people over it.

Yes, it's so painful to all or most parties and usually whatever the big issue is, with time and distance it fades but often the pain does not.


> Think about it first so you won't regret it later.

A wise motto for pretty much everything in life.

(Sorry I focused on the H&M thing entirely in my first post. I didn't mean to ignore the main important issue you were raising).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2022 07:55PM by Nightingale.

In the end, it is all very sad that it has come to this. Harry, I'd say, needs his family--at the very least, his brother.

BUT, who am I to talk? We've had fighting between the 3 sisters since our parents died and before and forever. We just went through another bout. We have 2 disabled brothers and trusts for them and some property. Not very much compared to the royal family.

I just think it was in very poor taste to do what they are doing. Harry's book hasn't come out yet, has it? Doesn't he have money from Diana's estate, too? It seems like it was quite a bit. Not enough I guess.

Money and *attention* are separate things and “needing” them can be a path to destruction.

The arguments we've had since our parents died have been over money and property, etc.

And my dad's sister and her husband had a lot of money and the arguing over that money started before they died. The dad had been a SP (he reactivated in his 50s) and he kept threatening to give the money to the church. He didn't. He was afraid his wife would spend it, so he put her in a nursing home. She never forgave him. I went to see her after the funeral and she was furious at him. He wanted her declared incompetent. They all still argue over the money.

All the parents have been dead for between 12 and 14 years.

Ditto to summer's views above. I have not watched any of the Harry and Meghan stuff nor the Crown stuff.

Besides issues with race, rushing into things, unfamiliarity with royal traditions, family and personality differences, etc., I think overall culture plays a role.

In GENERAL, Americans can be impatient loudmouth (me me me) in your face types. From the few visits and observations I have made in England, I would say they tend to be more subtle, reserved and stuffily polite. There are differences like that that an American might not be used to and could interpret as hostility.

Totally agree with this characterization of Americans by people in other countries. I am an American, but I live in Germany, and it always shocks me when I run into Americans here. So many of them are super loud and obnoxious, and they seem oblivious about it.

My husband and I have taken to speaking quietly when we’re out. One time, we were in a restaurant in Slovenia and there were a bunch of Americans in there. It was like an elementary school cafeteria. We were sitting there and noticed a German couple sitting nearby. They nodded in sympathy to us… obviously thinking we were Germans, too!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2022 11:07AM by knotheadusc.

When I traveled in Europe long ago, one of my great pleasures was to be mistaken for a European. Some of the behavior of my fellow Americans made me wince -- they could be loud, obvious, and attention-seeking. It wasn't every American, but enough to be noticeable.

I always thought it was not a great idea for Harry to marry an American. Meghan didn't appear to understand the culture or the expectations at all well. And she appears to have an assertive personality, which could have led to a lot of missteps.

There is nothing stuffy about politeness. It is common courtesy. The world needs more politeness.

Not at all. There are cultural and language difference to be sure, but I like the British. You are my people. We will always have your back when the going gets tough.

An amusing story that still gives my wife and me a chuckle when we are teased about our English accents. Yes, we still have them after more than 50 years though they have been, ahem, tainted a bit.

Anyway, we were sitting at the farthest breakfast room table from the door at a beautiful 13th Century farmhouse bed and breakfast inn in Crepon, Normandy, France, chatting to three friends from England. There were 25 or so people in the room and the air was filled with numerous European accents. The door at the front popped open and a middle aged couple entered. Before taking a seat the woman made a beeline for our table and standing before us and looking at my wife and I enquired: "Do I hear American accents?" At the risk if being taken seriously, we were aghast.

PS. To anyone planning a Normandy visit I would highly recommend La Ferme de la Ranconniere hotel in Crepon. (can't do the appropriate accents) They have a great internet site. Close to all the WW2 beaches.

Thanks for the tip. I hope to get to Normandy in 2023.

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS. To anyone planning a Normandy visit I would
> highly recommend La Ferme de la Ranconniere hotel
> in Crepon. (can't do the appropriate accents)


Ferme de la Rançonnière :)

Ransom firm or ransom farm? Maybe Tom can help. Neither sounds right.

Thank you NG.

I can't do the special marks on here either - I Google the word or phrase and then cut and paste it from the Net into my post here.

So, my secret's out.

Fortunately, I have others.

Have fun tomorrow, Kentish, watching the game. I've organized the universe so nothing else is happening tomorrow in my world except the World Cup. What else are Sundays for? :)

It's supposed to start at 7am here but knowing TV there will be a lengthy pregame which I dislike. Not interested. Just play the game. I may get to see the first part only.