I know some of you think that I am alarmist when I talk about fundies wanting a real life version of the "Republic Of Gilead."

I'd rather cry wolf and be wrong than to be right, silent, and dead.

*******************

First, some background:

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/794999/pdf


The American Redoubt and the Coyolxauqui Imperatative
Dismembering America through Whiteness, Remembering America with Gloria Anzaldúa
Terrance MacMullan (bio)
Keywords
Whiteness, white supremacy, Racism, Redoubt, Gloria Anzaldúa, mestiza, conocimiento

These are sad and concerning times: we live with increasing fears of ecological devastation, the dissolution of civil society, and even nuclear war. Many people in the United States—particularly those who are white and Christian—respond to these fears by fleeing our crumbling cities for the isolation and perceived safety of rural environments. This is particularly noticeable in the movement known as the American Redoubt. The American Redoubt is a complex movement driven by political conservatives and Evangelical Christians who hope to extricate themselves from the complexities of U.S. society and the problems of a chaotic world by segregating themselves in rural enclaves in the U.S. Northwest. Their motivations include a desire to prepare for civilization's impending collapse, a yearning to be free of what they consider excessive state control over individual liberties as well as the aspiration to establish a devout Judeo-Christian theocracy.1 Abraham Lincoln argued that sometimes a political dismemberment is the only way to save the body politic, writing "often a limb must be amputated to save a life."2 Lincoln was likely thinking of the Nazarene's edict in Matthew 5:30: "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." As extreme as this response might be, those who seek refuge and rebirth in the American Redoubt hope for an even more extreme political dismemberment. They believe that the American body politic is so contaminated that the best [End Page 175] they can hope for is an inverse amputation: saving the healthy limb by amputating it from the diseased body.

The American Redoubt is also a practice of embodied whiteness wherein adherents who share a common notion of purity enact their physical and economic privilege by self-segregating from people they deem polluted and morally inferior. This essay argues that the Redoubt is not just an unethical response to political problems and an impractical survival strategy. It is a symptom of our nation's long festering chronic spiritual illness: habitual white racism that threatens to destroy any hope of community among the peoples of the Americas. It also signifies that the Americas are in a Janus moment: we can delve deeper into the terrible violence born of separation and ignorance or embrace the hope that we might finally know and love our many selves and create a greater union.

This essay argues that our best guide away from the false promise of life through unnatural purity and isolation is the radical and loving wisdom of the cultural theorist and spiritual activist Gloria Anzaldúa (1942–2004), who urged the people of the Americas to develop a new mestiza consciousness. In her uncompromising and category-defying work, Anzaldúa encourages us to see that attempts to ignore, run from, or kill our fears will prove fruitless since white Americans cannot disown the shadows of our actions. Further, there is no pristine Eden towards which we might return and shelter from the whirlwind we've caused. More than any other philosopher or visionary, Anzaldúa prophesied this moment and the need for the people of the Americas to seek healing and redemption through a form of understanding and spiritual activism she called the Coyolxauqui Imperative. Engaging with Anzaldúa's work will enable white Americans to see that fences and AR-15s won't protect us from the shadows of our actions and that we must instead be brave enough to face and amend for our sins against other people and the life of the world.3

AN AMALGAMATION OF LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE
Demographers have predicted for many years that by 2040, white people will be a racial minority in the United States.4 A cursory glance across the U.S. political scene shows that a lot of white folks are really freaked out about this fact. Quite a few of us are adapting to this reality through a response open to anyone who happens to have enough money to buy many acres...


https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/15/politics/oregon-secession-idaho-partisan-divides/index.html


eated on a bench looking out at the 20-acre expanse of his yard in Powell Butte, Oregon, fresh snow lightly covering the juniper trees, McCaw’s property is a world away from Portland. It’s a liberal city he knows well, having lived and taught students there for 20 years. McCaw and his family only recently left when the pandemic struck, frustrated by the school closures and restrictions on his family.

The problems between where he currently lives and his old city, he said, begin with rural Oregonians living fundamentally different lifestyles than people in the city of Portland. At the ballot box, due to the population strength of the cities, the rural region is outnumbered in every major statewide vote.

McCaw cited gun control and decriminalization of drugs as two major issues where the lesser-populated rural and vote-rich urban divide collide. “The political tension does not come because Portland’s doing something. The political tension comes when Portland does something and says we have to do the same thing. It doesn’t work for us.”

Sandie Gilson, a Greater Idaho Movement board member and a small business owner in John Day, Oregon, sees the problem more simply. “We are very different people,” she said of the cultures in the east versus the west of her state. “The rules and regulations that they’re making, that makes sense in the city, don’t make sense out here. The people here haven’t changed. Portland’s changed. Salem’s changed. Eugene has changed.”

Gilson says government boils down to representation. “I don’t believe that the Oregon government as a whole and the supermajority that has been in power there for many decades is listening to eastern Oregon at all.”


It’s not just Oregon and Idaho
The discontent of rural communities with their urban, and often liberal, counterparts has been a longstanding sentiment across the US.

Nearly two years ago, Republican legislators from three Western Maryland counties penned letters asking state legislative leaders if they could leave Maryland and join their more conservative neighbors in West Virginia. And in West Virginia in 2020, some Republicans in the state legislature tried to get conservative counties in Virginia to join them – 160 years after West Virginia broke off from the commonwealth.

In Colorado, Weld County residents have seen a variety of efforts to move the state line so that Weld – a county that backed Trump by double digits in a state that voted for Biden – would become a part of much redder Wyoming. An online petition urging support for the move states, “Weld County’s values align more with Wyoming than Denver/Boulder,” adding that “rural communities are getting ignored.”

And in New Mexico in 2021, a Republican state senator proposed a constitutional amendment that would allow counties to petition the state legislature to secede from the state and join a neighboring state or create a new one.

But none of these measures have gone much beyond proposals. The success of Greater Idaho is notable because it’s already passed one chamber of the legislature.

The counties involved, both state legislatures, and the US Congress would all need to approve such a switch of counties between states.

Not going to happen.

The Malheur Wildlife Refuge is in the middle of nowhere. Bundy and his band of Merry Men took over a few administration buildings in a wildlife refuge until the plumbing got so messed up, not to mention poor food choices, that they ended up getting arrested when they ventured out of the refuge.

The only reason the government didn't just go in and crush their takeover was the administration didn't want another Waco on their hands.

If push ever really came to shove (which it did not with Ammon and the boys) the feds can shove much much harder than a bunch of boys with pea shooters.

Ain't gonna happen?

Probably not.

Then nobody thought that Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns, 2 titans of the investment banking world would go belly up either.

Lehman Brothers was established in 1847, and had weathered many financial panics. In 2008 both banks put most of their cookies into subprime mortgages. Stock values gradually headed south, and then to zero. Many stock holders got out while the getting was good. Many lost a lot, and some went bust.

Progressive politics are the subprime mortgages to many (not all) in Eastern Oregon.

Your inflexibility costs you credibility, anybody.

The history department was trying to get me to give up astrophysics and be an historian rather than a scientist -- who knows, might have been better off.

I don't know where you are coming from LW, but I'll say this:

Most nations that have had the almost night/day divisions that America has now would have come apart at the seams years ago, and it's a miracle that we've held together this long.

This isn't like 1861-65.

This is totally new, and religion is the cooked up divider now.

I say "cooked up" because the version of Evangelicalism that the fundies created for themselves is tailor-made to be (a) a justification and (b) a psychological coping mechanism for their own innate fears and prejudices.

The Mormons just wanted their own little fiefdom.
The fundies want all of America.
They believe that it was "promised" to them by almighty God to rule over and exploit as they see fit.

I don't see this subsiding or going away any time soon.

Suppose we (i.e. the rest of America that isn't like them) gives in to their demands. A re-segregated society, apartheid, forced birth (like when girls disappeared from school back in the 1960s and mysteriously re-appeared nine months later), official state religion, persecution of 2SLGBTQIA+, ya ya ya.

That's not the 21 Century I expected to live in.

That's the 12th Century from the Middle Ages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2023 09:54PM by anybody.

I agree with you about the threat posed by the right in its various incarnations. But jumping to the Gildead rhetoric is just inflammatory.

We saw the same sloppiness with regard to trans people and sport. I again agree that trans people should have equal opportunities to compete but that does not necessarily mean they should be allowed to compete with born women. That's an empirical question, not an emotional one. You asserted that no trans athlete has ever competed in the Olympics, which, as I pointed out, is false. You did not know--and apparently still do not know--that post-hormone-treatment Lauren Hubbard went from a national male ranking of about 200 to a national female ranking of about 19, thereby belying your notion that hormonal equalization creates a fair playing field.

Indeed, you did not notice that identical implication in studies you cited. Thus you advocated hormonal treatment as sufficient to render trans women and women equally competitive and yet as an afterthought referenced studies arguing--as Lauren Hubbard's case indicates--that testosterone levels do not account for differences in athletic performance. You cannot logically hold both positions, and the contradiction should have given you pause for thought.

So too should your observation that the possibility of trans men competing with men has not been criticized as roundly as the prospect of trans women competing with women. You implied the difference reflected a societal bias against trans women rather than recognizing the possibility that many people believe the situations are competitively different--or that some of your evidence in fact supports that latter interpretation.

In fact, if you were logical in your support for trans people you should insist that trans men receive hormonal or other support to the point where they are on an equal footing with men. And yet you did not. Your concern starts and ends with trans women. Why is that?

We all get things wrong, but a willingness to see the shortcomings and inconsistencies in one's own arguments is important not only per se but also for credibility. As someone who agrees with you on most of the major issues, I am saddened to see you undermine your own arguments with the selective use of evidence and TV rhetoric.

Like I said, compromise was possible on the trans women in sport thing, and there's not been a 100% clear line on who is and who is not "fit to be female" for athletic competition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

But I'm not speaking just of sexual minorities.

I'm mean the state of the nation as a whole.

Perhaps I should have said "Massive Resistance" instead of the Bundy stand-off in the above example.

LW, I agree with you that a complete break-up of the USA *probably* won't happen -- barring unforeseen events that could kick it off -- but that doesn't mean that there won't be turmoil along that way, or that people won't be hurt or killed.

That's what keeps me up at night.

I know people -- personal friends -- who have had to flee red states for the sake of their children, and some who are so scared about what's coming that they've fled the country or are seriously considering it. The level of extremism has become so great now that it's no idle threat and it's damaging people's lives -- and there's no one trying to turn the temperature down. Instead, they are fanning the flames.

The ironic thing is that I have more in common with the "fundies" than they realize.

I grew up in ranch country, and wore Rocky Mountain Jeans and Roper boots. I have a full-size Chevy Blazer 4X4 with a 4" lift and 33" tires that I rebuilt myself -- the real one, not the thing nowadays that looks like a mini-Suburban. I like visiting the big city, the art galleries, museums, the symphony, and the high-end boutiques -- but I wouldn't like to live in one. I don't even like coffee (except when it's really cold out), I've never had a pumpkin spice latte from Starbucks, don't drink, don't smoke, never used drugs (just not interested, probably the reason Mormon guys dated me in college), and I like classic science fiction and horror movies on late night TV.

Here's the difference. I don't fear people who are not like me.
Diversity is our greatest strength, not a weakness.

When I meet immigrants, I always ask what state they are from and not what country, because when you come to America, you are an American, plain and simple. You don't need to be a certain race, religion, or culture. America doesn't even have a "culture" -- it's a made up mish-mash from all over the world. I don't think I'm "losing" anything if I treat others with dignity and respect as they want to be treated.

I remember the night after the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks when I was in school. I had to wait for hours that afternoon to get gas, and drove back home past the local mosque that was run by the Islamic student association. There was an entire circle of people who surrounded the mosque that night holding hands to keep someone from trying to burn it down. That was the finest thing I have ever seen in my life. That's the America I believe in -- not hate, not exclusion -- where *everybody* is welcome.


They say fundies are motivated by fear and have a zero-sum game view of the world. I can have a debate or constructive argument with people who don't agree with me, but you can't ever agree with people who live in a conspiracy theory fantasy land who think that lizard aliens have taken over the world or Hillary Clinton has a sex-slave colony on the Moon and keeps kids locked in a pizza restaurant basement. That's just plain nuts. They want to control everybody though fear, if there are no real fears, they make them up.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2023 12:03AM by anybody.

America has always been a place to dream

First by those living here before ships arrived
Then by immigrants, their descendants & new arrivals
And most recently it's by crazy Americans themselves

Their "dreams", however, are real nightmares for ordinary citizens.

This land is/ was/ never was/ never will be your land
People make themselves stranger by ignorance and apathy

The separate states and peoples of the land of America

"America has always been a place to dream"

The Native Americans had dreams.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "America has always been a place to dream"
>
> The Native Americans had dreams.

No doubt!

Read my post again Bradley-

"... Those Living Here [in the 'pre-USA'] Before Ships Arrived (America's ORIGINAL DREAMERS)

similar ideas were floated in Washington too, some wanted a 'Freedom County' at the NW part of Washington, others wanted an East-West split of the State.

Guns & other weapons + ideology + fear + charismatic leadership > chaos as we've seen recently

The difference is that there are a LOT of extreme right wing types who got voted into Idaho's legislature. I can't believe some of the stuff they are pulling. I'm concerned.

There appears to be no guardrails effectively protecting representative governing

I don’t know squat about the Idaho State constitution, but we can see what’s happening with the U. S. Constitution thanks to trump & his supporters


was Barry Goldwater a part of the start of this?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2023 01:19AM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> similar ideas were floated in Washington too, some
> wanted a 'Freedom County' at the NW part of
> Washington, others wanted an East-West split of
> the State.
>
> Guns & other weapons + ideology + fear +
> charismatic leadership > chaos as we've seen
> recently


Try weather, terrain, proximity, density, resources, ideologies, economies, fools ...

Fanatics everywhere-

Another one: the Olympic Peninsula breaking off, creating an island, without bridges, or ferries or cars or roads or anything, with water all around and no more Puget sound anywhere to be found, only waterfalls, salmon, cedar and gold...

You need to get out more Anybody. You are extremely paranoid.

I was totin' my pack along the dusty Winnemucca road
When along came a semi with a high an' canvas-covered load
"If you're goin' to Winnemucca, Mack, with me you can ride"
And so I climbed into the cab, and then I settled down inside
He asked me if I'd seen a road with so much dust and sand
And I said, "Listen, I've traveled every road in this here land"
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the deserts bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
I've been to Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota
Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota
Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma
Tampa, Panama, Mattawa, La Paloma
Bangor, Baltimore, Salvador, Amarillo
Tocapillo, Baranquilla, and Perdilla, I'm a killer
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the deserts bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
I've been to Boston, Charleston, Dayton, Louisiana
Washington, Houston, Kingston, Texarkana
Monterey, Faraday, Santa Fe, Tallapoosa
Glen Rock, Black Rock, Little Rock, Oskaloosa
Tennessee to Tennesse Chicopee, Spirit Lake
Grand Lake, Devils Lake, Crater Lake, for Pete's sake
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the desert's bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
I've been to Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Ombabika
Schefferville, Jacksonville, Waterville, Costa Rica
Pittsfield, Springfield, Bakersfield, Shreveport
Hackensack, Cadillac, Fond du Lac, Davenport
Idaho, Jellico, Argentina, Diamantina,
Pasadena, Catalina, see what I mean
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the desert's bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
I've been to Pittsburgh, Parkersburg, Gravelburg, Colorado
Ellensburg, Rexburg, Vicksburg, El Dorado
Larimore, Atmore, Haverstraw, Chatanika
Chaska, Nebraska, Alaska, Opelika
Baraboo, Waterloo, Kalamazoo, Kansas City
Sioux City, Cedar City, Dodge City, what a pity
I've been everywhere, man
I've been everywhere, man
Crossed the desert's bare, man
I've breathed the mountain air, man
Of travel I've had my share, man
I've been everywhere
I've been everywhere

"You need to get out more Anybody. You are extremely paranoid"

You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you.

If astrophysics gets you on the ISS it might help, unless you don't trust Russians.

Whatever. There’s this big bullshit narrative being sold that there is going to be a right wing insurrection. Well it’s not rural, conservative Christians running fentanyl across the border or turning what were once nice cities into shit holes. It’s not mom and pop in Alabama behind all the financial and corporate scandals. It’s the people with the big money who are the troublemakers and it’s them doing the damage but they need some narratives to take the attention off of them. Believe me, some people in Eastern Oregon are the least of our problems. It’s people who have the resources to bribe, blackmail, threaten and kill who are. You worry about piss ants when there is no accountability for people who are connected. They can do whatever they want and nothing happens.

I disagree about cities though. That type of decline is caused by a lack of investment, shrinking tax base, concentration of poverty, and both white and capital flight.

I have a question for you:

Why do the people your mentioned vote against their own interests?

The ultra wealthy who back religious fundamentalists in America do so out naked self interest. They want (white rural working class) people to support them, and use religion and fear of "the other" as the means to do so. Bomb throwing "performance art" type politicians who pull crazy stunts and promote conspiracy theories are just the sales force in this game.

However, the rich folk behind all of this don't seem to realize that they have pushed things too far, and they are close to bringing the house down. That's the mistake the German business class made with Adolf Hitler. They thought they could use him. Instead, he used them.

Having a transgender girl play soccer, an African American small town mayor, a gay teacher, books in the library, a mosque or a halal grocery store in your town isn't going to destroy America, but the hysteria and paranoia about religion and America's changing demographics has made it much easier to pull the wool over people's eyes.


That to me is the perplexing thing.


The only thing that makes sense is that fear is so ingrained in some folks that they can't overcome it with facts and reason.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2023 07:49AM by anybody.

I agree with you. A lot of politicians keep the populace "busy" on non-issues while they are doing things in their own self interest.

>> Well it’s not rural, conservative Christians running fentanyl across the border

The Mexican cartels are running the drugs across the border. However, white, conservative Christians are heavily represented in terms of fentanyl overdoses.

The state with the highest number of fentanyl overdose deaths (when adjusted for population,) is West Virginia, which pretty much epitomizes rural, conservative, and Christian. Other states with high overdose death rates include red or red-leaning states like Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee. Other states with high overdose rates include very white states such as Maine and Vermont.

https://usafacts.org/articles/are-fentanyl-overdose-deaths-rising-in-the-us/

In terms of racial groups overdosing, you've got Blacks, Whites, and Native Americans who have been running neck-and-neck in recent years. Whites were ahead from about 2014 through 2018. Hispanics and Asians are doing better.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1018663/fentanyl-overdose-death-rate-us-by-ethnicity/

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s the people with the big money who are the
> troublemakers and it’s them doing the damage but
> they need some narratives to take the attention
> off of them. Believe me, some people in Eastern
> Oregon are the least of our problems. It’s
> people who have the resources to bribe, blackmail,
> threaten and kill who are. You worry about piss
> ants when there is no accountability for people
> who are connected. They can do whatever they want
> and nothing happens.


Exactly right, Rubicon. As long as Americans believe the narratives that have them hating/blaming their neighbours, all’s well for the non-pissants.

Don’t hate your neighbour. Love your neighbours and join them in opposing the oligarchy that laughs at you while it crushes you.

This stuff trickles down and can snowball into real damage.

Idaho is in the process of making it as difficult as possible for education by actions with books, taking away school funding, favoring charter schools (here, that means religious), not supporting teachers, no protection, etc.

Smack in the center of Idaho is the DOE's site, which attracts a lot highly educated people working on various projects (some involve nuclear recycling, etc.). I have rocket scientist type kids working there so I know about some of it and the caliber of some of the scientists there.

The "site," as the DOE is known here, is fairly exclusive and secretive (for government projects). All the years I have been here, there were people trying to get hired. Then yesterday on TV I saw something I've not seen before. The DOE had a giant advertisement letting people know you don't have to be a scientist to work there and where to apply for jobs.

I know good employees are in demand everywhere for everything, but this made me think the site might realize smart people won't want to come here to red Idaho banana republic.

A big school superintendent in Idaho Falls recently quit and took a job in Washington. I'm reading between the lines why.

Idaho is damaging itself by it's political shift to more extreme positions IMO. Businesses that require educated people might not come. This could trickle down and all the nice mom and pop business might be shooting themselves in their feet by supporting it.

I think you have hit on a key point. Politicians understand companies not wanting to move to their state.

How many doctors are going to want to open a practice in a state that bans all abortions? How many malpractice insurance companies will be willing to write policies in such states?

How many major companies with high paying, technical jobs, would be willing to move to such a state, a state where education is completely hamstrung?

Utah has a few legislators who are completely bats**t crazy, but most of them, and the governor, are not willing to alienate corporate America. Not yet, anyway.

The news from Friday (3/17/23) reports issues with medical staff are happening.

A small hospital in N. Idaho (Sandpoint area) is now discontinuing delivering babies. The pediatrician left and an OBGYN is planning to leave Idaho. Women will have to travel 45 miles for hospital delivery.

Way to go, Idaho Legislature. Just drive out doctors and all those pesky folks who like to read and see how great it is to encourage poverty and no health care. What the hell is WRONG with some people!

https://idahocapitalsun.com/2023/03/17/citing-staffing-issues-and-political-climate-north-idaho-hospital-will-no-longer-deliver-babies/

I grew up in Idaho Falls and knew people who worked at the Site. One of the benefits of growing up there; you know the schools are going to get funded when the parents have PhDs in nuclear physics. Plus, they have a well-funded public library; that place helped me learn the truth about Mormonism and the fiction section was my favorite place in the town.

With the Idaho State Legislature's bad breakout of rabies, this is not going to encourage educated people to move there. And life for the locals is about to get worse.

I live next to Moscow and grew up in I.F. I hate seeing this happen to where I grew up. And why I think the far-right carpetbaggers are the *real* biggest problem in the state.

Side note: I wish we got more Ernest Hemingways moving to Idaho instead. Seriously, he lived in Ketchum. And, uh, died there.

https://comlib.org/hemingway/hemingway-in-idaho/hemingway-house-and-preserve/

>> taking away school funding, favoring charter schools...

Conservatives and MAGA-types are often fixated on the idea of charter schools. What they don't realize is that any given charter school can be good, bad, or anything in between. Even generally respected chains of schools (i.e. KIPP, Monarch) can have wonderful schools and dreadful schools.

Most of the public school teachers that I know support having charters as an option. Charter schools can provide a different point of view in terms of curriculum and education. And what many conservatives forget is that teachers are normally parents, too. They want good quality school options for their own children. And even as educators, they like to have options for places to work.

Any school needs to be judged on its own merits -- public, private, or charter. There is no magic formula for success.

If I recall correctly, the effort to split Washington state by east and west died when the east side learned that the west side (Seattle) was paying for many of the costs of the east side, ie roads, schools, unemployment, health services, etc.

I imagine the same situation exists in Oregon. The areas that want to move to Idaho are large and lightly populated. Large area and little tax base. To Idaho, I bet that looks like a real winning situation.

Then if you need congressional approval for the change, that's a no brainer. California, Oregon, and Washington has wanted to stop the daylight savings time change for years. This hasn't happened.

Border changes aren't going to happen either.

Plus, if the crazies got control of eastern Washington, like they wanted to in the first place, it would mean "No more Initiative 502." I think this would also work as an argument against eastern Washington becoming part of Idaho. Source: I live in a college town in eastern Washington.

to top it off, Idaho has an income tax & last I knew their sales tax applies to food; NO WEED ALLOWED EITHER (he says in smoke signals...)

There are many headaches between Idaho ( income tax, sales tax on food but lower rate for other goods than Washington)

Nearby Washington & Oregon are in the mix.

Washington has a high sales tax but not on food or prescriptions but no income tax.

Oregon has an income tax but no sales tax.

Guess where Washington residents go to buy a vehicle or anything portable…

Guess where Idaho residents who live close to a border go to buy groceries, near Oregon to buy a car…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2023 07:33PM by GNPE.

You are the only person I know who has this license plate fixation.

Buying a car in Oregon saves you no money unless you also register the car in Oregon and insure the car in Oregon. [An Idaho insurance company will not sell you an Idaho policy to cover a car registered in Oregon with you residing in Idaho]

Then if you get a ticket in Idaho, you could well get a second ticket for aimproperly registered car. If you have an accident and the insurance company finds out your car is registered in Oregon and you live in Idaho, that's a get out of jail free card for them - they won't pay the claim on an illegally registered car.



Are there people who have illegally registered cars. Some, and they can probably get away with it as long as they don't get a ticket or have an accident. Just like you can get away with not having health insurance as long as you don't get sick or injured.

It all depends on how lucky you feel.

Edit to add: if and when you do register the car in Idaho, you get to pay the Idaho sales tax when you register the car. You pay the difference between the Idaho sales tax and the sales tax you paid in the state where you bought the car.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2023 03:23AM by Brother Of Jerry.

For the secessionists:

I was wondering if you secede, how exactly will the military work?

also, it’s a major headache to set up courts & other necessary systems to have an orderly government (which many resist in the first place)in place.

unconventional Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the secessionists:
>
> I was wondering if you secede, how exactly will
> the military work?


Like it does/n't now-
Like things always have!

People will come together, fight, argue, make it work
And the people work harder and harder, doing less and less

Less mouths to feed.
Less people to do it.

Win
Win

How will the military work?

Washington DC will keep it. They will also keep the monetary system, federal highway funds, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, national park funds, etc.

They may work out a deal to continue SS payments, though Medicare and Medicaid will not pay for out-of-country expenses. New passports will need to be issued by somebody.

A portion of the national debt will be assigned to the seceded state. If they refuse to make the payments, no will bank will loan them anything. That right there will probably end the secession. The state will have a lot of expenses and no money.


BTW, this is all hypothetical. Secession is not allowed. There was a major war that pretty firmly established that. I suppose it might be technically allowed if both houses of Congress, the President, and the state all agree that the state can secede.

Like that would ever happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2023 02:46AM by Brother Of Jerry.

And if states don’t pay federal taxes, how can they expect roads, military proctection, etc?

Sorry, this is all so ridiculous.

I recommend people (especially the discontented) get hobbies, volunteer in their communities, and keep the focus on their localities.

That may help them find their way back to sensible thinking.

unconventional Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And if states don’t pay federal taxes, how can
> they expect roads, military proctection, etc?
>
> Sorry, this is all so ridiculous.
>
> I recommend people (especially the discontented)
> get hobbies, volunteer in their communities, and
> keep the focus on their localities.
>
> That may help them find their way back to sensible
> thinking.


The people who embrace this kind of extremism don't do so out of reason, but out of fear.

You can't reason with them.

That's the problem.

the fear is partially rooted in such as the railways bringing Asians to work on the first transcon.

Ah, yes -- the "Yellow Peril"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril

"It’s not just Oregon and Idaho
The discontent of rural communities with their urban, and often liberal, counterparts has been a longstanding sentiment across the US."


Victor Davis Hanson said in 2016 the Trumped One was going to win that election. His acquaintances in Palo Alto told him he was nuts. How did he know? As he traveled and left urban areas for more suburban and rural areas. The Hillary yard signs changed pretty quickly to Donald yard signs.

Hanson was just lucky. There was nothing foreordained about Former Guy’s win. Comey announced ten days before the election that Anthony Weiner’s laptop was being investigated for possession of classified docs. That sucked all the oxygen out of Hillary’s campaign. The announcement was also a violation of FBI policy.

On top of that she got overconfident and campaigned in states she had no hope of winning and didn’t campaign in the swing states at the close of the campaign. Oops.