My new wife and I moved into a new ward. The Bishop wanted to meet with us yesterday after Church. This ward is my wife's old ward. So I understand the meeting. He wanted to get to know who I was!!! I still feel very dirty from that meeting today. He was pleasant and he was wondering what Church callings I had had. At that point I shared with him my concerns I was dealing with, namely the SEC stuff and how he will ask me if I strive to be honest in a temple recommend interview. I stated I would have trouble supporting the top guys as setting up shell companies is very dishonest and you only do that if you have to hide something. Anyways he tried to tell me it was only one person who was involved. I clued him in. I said why do you want me to be honest and yet I can't expect God's prophets to be honest. He then said the scriptures are filled with lots of prophets who have made mistakes. And the top guys are just men too. "This was mistake. And what I need to do is separate the temporal church from the spiritual Church. That is what he does." I think he heard me but it does not make me feel good. Its like you have an opinion but you can not express it. I do not think I will be getting a church calling!!! But why do I feel like I need a shower today?
It sounds like he gave you all the regular excuses to explain away when they do shady stuff (hence the shower feeling!).
At least he knows you are going to call them out. I'm guessing he hopes you won't get too chatty with the ward members. I'm sure you are on their mental watch list now as a potential trouble maker.
I hope your wife doesn't give you any crap about standing for something.
Good. You got him to admit that the guys at the top make mistakes. That ties in to the power of discernment and how it utterly failed. Also, you can ask him if he thought the Q15 prayed about this decision. If he says yes, what does it say about prayer as a life guide; and if no, then why didn't they pray about such a big decision, since they're always telling the hoi polloi to pray about everything?
Second, this leads into what other recent mistakes have they made? The second earring rule has apparently been loosened, so you could say that was a mistake too. And mormons can now drink caffeinated sodas, so prohibiting those was another mistake.
Given these mistakes, what else could qualify? How about the current ban on "mormon"? The same leaders are involved; who's to say that's not a mistake as well? Why should the current leaders be given the instant obedience they demand, since any of their decisions could be a mistake?
Admitting the current leaders aren't infallible opens up a huge can o'worms that hurts TBM brains.
Exactly. There is no reason to take anything they say seriously since they "make mistakes" and change things so often. Why bother. The Jesus thing apparently is what is important, so that means you don't need Mormonism at all.
But it's not just faith in Jesus that matters. If a member violates any of the rules pronounced by any superior in the hierarchy, s/he will be punished.
They don't care about Jesus: they only care about obedience.
And what about the "mistakes" that members make? Is the church quick to offer grace and forgive and forget when a member slips up?
Members are judged harshly for not falling in line with all the rules. Temple recommends are confiscated. Excommunication courts are held. Why should church leaders expect understanding and forgiveness for their mistakes (or in this case deliberate acts) when they don't offer the same to members? No, I'll judge the church and its leaders the way they taught me to judge.
Poor bishop. Ultimately, guys like him who know better, who have critical thinking skills, but compartmentalize will be viewed as cowards by their children and others who come after.
Agreed. I feel really bad for him. Because as a Bishop, truly, he's just a guy. Plucked from the pool of the rest of the congregation last week even. He's like the highest level you can get promoted and still be "just one of the nobody's from the pews." Stake and Branch presidents are a bit more but honestly, I'd count them too as simply guys, untrained to handle complex human psychology, and still so much a part of the "demanded obedience" the rest of us felt.
This bishop is facing a lot of pressure to look after his "flock" from those who he answers to and that can come in the form of either trying to save concerned or treating him like an enemy, depending on what levels his anxiety gets triggered at(aka, "the Spirit" counseling him when it is time to give up trying to play nice). But that also means, being just a guy among guys yesterday, he has to know things in order to counter and answer Concerned's questions. Stuff that he has this immense amount of pressure and expectation to get right with or face the shame of letting everyone down, including god, who he likely believes singled him out specifically.
That feels so...unfair to be put in that position, to want to do good(probably; he could be one of those bishops who reads between the lines of the corrupt example the leaders of the cult have set and bishop would be a handy little position to take advantage of) and how many knots he has to tie to maintain his composure. How many "tests from Satan" will he be forced to face in that office and how many doubts he'll have to vanquish and silence to fit into this idea of worthiness that's been hammered into him.
You think you feel like you need a shower, Concerned? I bet this bishop, if he's halfways a decent fellow, probably never feels clean. Not now, where we're at with church history and modern church controversies in the news every month-year. That smile and friendly demeanor is fake, is fear, is survival. And I'd keep things close to the chest unless you sense something in him that is willing to seek the truth. Because projection is a beast he will become in order to fight the "unshowered" feeling HE has, and you spouting too much concern will likely make you a target for that beast's claws and jaws. Just be careful when you have a cognitive dissonance sighting and recognize it for the straw ready to snap a camels back that it is.
You don't work really hard to hide mistakes. It just highlights how corrupt the system is that so few knew about all that money. From the beginning they should have been reporting to the members about what they had and what they were doing with it.
Per LDS theology, the only way to Jesus is via the Celestial Room in the temple. I beg to differ.
This is the same church that gave us men who slept with girls and already-married women. It gave us Warren Snow and Mountain Meadows. It gave us Brigham Young and Ezra Benson.
I would gladly follow the prophets. Here's the problem- I have never encountered a real one.
Compartmentalizing. A yes, that’s a good way to have you always look the other way. It’s like “don’t think of a white rabbit.” And then BAM…there is the white rabbit in your head. Yeah, sound advice.
*shudder* This made me realize that I could not deal with being anywhere near the church again unless it was for a funeral or a wedding. An interview? No way.
I chatted with a coworker recently about the $150 billion hidden account. I have known of it for a few years, the 60 Minutes expose' was a bit delayed, but finally it went international. Anyway I mentioned the Rainy Day Fund the church had been keeping under wraps. I was assured it was now being used for good! Temples being built, updated, ward buildings, etc. I wanted to ask her about the church's press release about the $10 million the ponied up for hurricane ravaged Houston. In light of a hidden pot of billions, that $10 million is a tad embarrassing.
Though I wanted to tell her that is a different pot of money, regarding buildings and such, I left it alone. I find there can never be a discussion.
You feel like you need a shower because you seem like a person of integrity trying to assimilate into a group where at least some of the actual leaders are sleazy and dishonest.
I still try to wrap my head around the ultimate question: If this is the church of Jesus, is it he who either recommended that the quorum break the law, or did he turn away as he did for thirty years regarding sexual abuse of the youth within the church, which has lead to the largest class action lawsuit of all time regarding the BSA?
Is there a Jesus, and if so, when does he become accountable? This seems trite, but my only point is that you have a quorum that seems to get things wrong consistently, and I can only chalk that up to not being special witnesses to anything or anyone.
At some point, these individuals become blasphemies, to the very divinity they claim to witness.