So... There are several Mormon relatives in my husband's immediate and extended family that claim to see and talk to dead people. They each claim they have a "gift" of visions etc. Personally, I think they are simply lying. Once established they appear to relish in the attention and continue to invent stories to keep the ruse going. What is the best way to call them out on their lies? When they insist that it is true, and they will, what is the best way to then tell them they have psychosis and are mentally ill? This is very personal to me as they continue claim to see my dead son among other dead relatives. Of course the dead relatives always show up at any family reunion. It has become a sad acknowledgement between my husband and I before every family reunion;"Okay, lay your bet on who sees our son at this reunion."

(MHO) Having a "vision" is 100% a mental / metaphysical / neurological experience, not to be confused with an actual, in-person visit or face-to-face experience.


Did Joey have a vision? IDK / IDCare since a vision wouldn't affect me for 'good', 'bad' or neutral.

I occasionally have 'visions' of being with my former wife #1; does that prove anything? Not In The Least.

Tell them they've been deceieved by Satan. Within the Bible believing world, communing with the dead is witchcraft, necromancy, demonic practice.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/communicating_with_the_dead

I like the one about the stoning of the communicators with the dead. Try and get them to set the appointment for when you're going to stone them to death. Use the commitment pattern and overcoming objections with relationships of trust.

Hahaha. I'll have to investigate this option too. :D

dogbloggernli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell them they've been deceieved by Satan. Within
> the Bible believing world, communing with the dead
> is witchcraft, necromancy, demonic practice.
>
> https://www.openbible.info/topics/communicating_wi
> th_the_dead

Most excellent point db!

Absolutely.


PS: I mean to indicate that I know that is what the Bible most definitely says, not that I think it's literally true. I've never been much of one for believing in too much woo-woo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2023 04:22PM by Nightingale.

I see you've changed your post. The original suggested telling people that according to the Bible their seances were satanic. My reply to that is as follows:



But it won't work.

The Bible is full of angelic visitations; Mormon doctrine and literally thousands of accounts of such likewise indicate that communications with the dead can be divine in origin. There are records of many such experiences in one of my two parental lines; one relative even collected and privately published a book of them.

There's additionally a section in the D&C that tells you how to distinguish between an bad angel and a good angel. If all interactions with the dead were satanic, there would be no need for such distinction: you could just reject them all. But the scripture says that you need to know how to tell the difference, meaning that some of them are real interactions with good spirits and hence a blessed experience.

So anyone who has such interactions will almost inevitably feel that they bore the Good Heaven-keeping seal of approval.

  There's likely nothing any
  non-TBM can say that could
  or would sway the faithful
  brethren and cisterns from
  doing and saying what they
  think best for the lost and
  faithless who aren't safely
  in the bosom of the church.

That sort of gift runs in families. My first wife could see dead people. She would complain that they followed her around. The dead get very excited when someone can see them.

I would feel sorry for your Mormon relatives for being able to see too much. It must be a burden for them to be thought of as freaks.

Hmmm. . .

Mormonism is based on necromancy.

D&C 110 lists many of the dead Joseph talked with.

Joseph F Smith's vision D&C 138 has a long list of dead he saw.

Many mormons claim seeing the dead in the temple. I desperately wanted to see my deceased mother, but I guess I didn't have enough faith.

It used to be very very common in my neck of the woods in the 60s to communicate with deceased loved ones. I think it has pretty much died out now.

"Necromancy."

Some Mormon and spiritualist practices sound so very bad when you describe them with the proper words.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Necromancy."
>
> Some Mormon and spiritualist practices sound so
> very bad when you describe them with the proper
> words.

Necrobaptism

New Norman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Necromancy."
> >
> > Some Mormon and spiritualist practices sound so
> > very bad when you describe them with the proper
> > words.
>
> Necrobaptism

blech

Edit: This is-- for real!--a "Lesson-Sermon" title (topic), instigated by Christian Science founder Mary Baker Eddy. Twice a year, this title (topic) will appear in the "Lesson-Sermon" rotation. Devout Christian Scientists will study excerpts from the Bible and their "textbook," Science & Health, then hear it read to them in church. Enough intro, the topic:

"Ancient and Modern Necromancy, Alias Hypnotism, Mesmerism, Denounced."

I shouldn't give my critics on the board ammo, but I grew up reading this crap. BTW, my mother served on the Mother Church committee that selected the readings for the 26 subjects. She kept it a carefully guarded secret (so spiritual!) until years after her term.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2023 02:31AM by caffiend.

> "Ancient and Modern Necromancy, Alias Hypnotism,
> Mesmerism, Denounced."
>
> I shouldn't give my critics on the board ammo, but
> I grew up reading this crap.

So did we.

We were taught that Ouija boards were evil, that magicians like Houdini were evil, that playing cards were evil: because even if they didn't have real power, they could open the doors to satanic influence.

There's a scene in Shot in the Heart, the book about Gary Gilmore, that has his mother and her Mormon siblings playing with a Ouija board and successfully summoning spirits that terrified them. Later a demon visits her over a child's crib. For that generation of Mormons, the supernatural was part of this world.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We were taught that Ouija boards were evil, that
> magicians like Houdini were evil, that playing
> cards were evil: because even if they didn't have
> real power, they could open the doors to satanic
> influence.

So was I, as a JW and in various EV churches I visited with friends. (Friends pretty much until I didn't join their churches).

Do they seem to have an agenda? (i.e. that your deceased son has told them that you need to get back to church.)

You could either ignore them or have some fun with them, i.e. "My son has communicated with me as well. He's told me that you have hemorrhoids developing in your rectum. He says, "stop straining so much on the toilet."

It's remarkably common. I know of a number of non-Mormons who claim to have had such experiences. Some of them are Spiritualists, so probably don't count, but not all are.

It isn't something I've really experienced. About the nearest I've come to it was when I spotted someone through a bus window once and waved to them. She was pretty distinctive looking. I mentioned it to someone else later that day and found out she'd died two weeks previously!!! The only logical explanation I can think of is that she had a doppelganger.

Beyond that the only "contact" with the dead I have is in dreams. If you can call it that.

I've had close friends see dead people when they were very sick. One nearly died during COVID and saw dead relatives. The other was in a hospital with a brain infection. Young kid didn't know about such things so he was asking why all the people in his ICU room. He had a NDE on the operating table. Says he saw Jesus and Buddha standing together.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... Says he saw Jesus and Buddha
> standing together.

I likely wouldn't know Buddha even if he were standing right in front of me.

As some of you know, my wife passed away a few years ago. She was terminal for nearly two years, so we had a chance to talk about a lot of things. Sadly, dealing with TBM morgbots was one of them.

We dreaded the thought of any of our TBM extended family members trying to claim they'd seen her in the temple, so we devised a system to debunk their claims. First, in case they claimed to haven spoke with her, we came up with some things that would be communicated to verify that it was really her, and also some visual things in case there was no audible communication (our own "signs and tokens," I suppose).

Anyway, no one has been stupid enough to approach us with anything of this nature, which is fortunate. Not surprising, because they've been shunning us for nearly a decade now, but my idiot brother does pop up from time to time and I have to remind him that he's shunning us and to please respect the boundaries he's established. Generally "not being nice" is enough to drive him away for at least a year, but once in a while I have to dial it up enough that he can feel smug about accusing me of having an anger management problem, but that generally keeps him away even longer, so it's worth the trade off. ;)

That's unfortunate you and your wife had to go there GBS. It's sad, yet, sweet that you could actually talk it over with each other.

The special signs and tokens you spoke of together - that's pretty funny.

I didn't actually ever hear anything like this during my brief stint within Mormonism.

Thank goodness because it kind of gives me the creeps.

Thanks, Nightingale. I agree that it's creepy stuff.

We hope all things, we believe all things, we hope to believe many things. Yea, even unto the admonition of Paul do we totally, like, dupe out. I mean, thou couldst tell any order of bullshit and we'll nod our heads.If there is anything praiseworthy or pawnable, we seek these things.

I smell dead people

I saw many dead people during the 20 years I worked as a first responder but none of them ever spoke.

PollyDee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It has become a sad acknowledgement between my husband
> and I before every family reunion;"Okay, lay your
> bet on who sees our son at this reunion."

I'm so sorry PollyDee - that's really awful.

It's hard to imagine that people could be so clueless. And oblivious to the negative effects on you both.

And really just off the wall besides.

It's also a form of them trying to manipulate you with your own life circumstances. Their fraudulent imaginary relationship with your loved one is more significant than your own is. Your grief, not to mention reality, is not as "important" as their self-serving lies are. It's very contemptuous.

Thank you all for your comments and support it is much appreciated! While I feel this behavior from so many in the family, due to convenience and timing of events such as a family gathering, is manipulative in nature, is there the possibility of delusional hallucinating from schizophrenic mental illness? It's difficult to believe so many could be afflicted with schizophrenia and not really exhibit any other known symptoms of the mental illness. Family reunions have become a group seance of sorts.

Of course, none of them would admit to being mentally ill - each and every one considers it a "spiritual gift"

I agree with with others here that their so-called "gift" is actually a form of necromancy where in they benefit from a perceived higher esteem from family and friends.

It may be worth considering the fact that in a lot of cultures communicating with the dead is considered perfectly normal.

I'm thinking an example published by a famous biologist who spent many years with the Masai. He recounts one time when a village was upset that a woman had been talking to a spirit while walking down the street and wanted to lock her up. The biologist said, "but you and your friends see and talk to spirits all the time. Why is she crazy?"

"Because she sees them at the wrong times. Anyone who does that while walking is obviously crazy."

In other words, seeing the dead is normal as long as it occurs within the proper context. What counts as "sanity" or "insanity" is in some places and times culturally dependent.

My point is that sometimes you don't need to look for underlying mental illness. Sometimes a society will have a visionary, a shaman--often one who is schizophrenic and fulfills important religious functions--and other members of the community not only believe his (or her) stories and but have lesser versions of the same phenomenon themselves. None or very few people are mentally ill but they think "spiritual" experiences are perfectly rational.

Mormonism has some of that. Believers are sure that spiritual visitations occur, so they expect those things and proudly report them. Maybe your family fits that pattern. My mother's certainly does. None of them are schizophrenic; none of them are even mentally ill. But there is such a thing as the "madness of the crowd," in which people reap conscious and subconscious rewards from their social network for what is perceived as greater spirituality. In such circumstances the "madness" is not psychological but sociological.

But there is such a
> thing as the "madness of the crowd," in which
> people reap conscious and subconscious rewards
> from their social network for what is perceived as
> greater spirituality. In such circumstances the
> "madness" is not psychological but sociological.

Exactly, thank you! DH and I have been very tolerant of their reported sightings for the past 15 years. However, over time, it has become similar to what sunbeep stated. To know anything about our son we must come to them. Two relatives, in particular, the worse offender being DH's sister, act this way. To us it feels like identity theft and more precisely, relationship theft. DH's sister acts as though we can only know our son through her. If we buy into it the result is that our memories and loving relationship with our son is then hijacked by her. It becomes all about her and her interpretation of our relationship to our son. To have that kind of emotional control over grieving people would be a narcissist's dream come true.

When I was younger, there was a man in the ward who professed to see and talk with dead people. He relished in the attention and even made appointments with people to come to his house while he talked to their dearly departed loved ones. The Bishop had to tell him to tone it down a bit.