It seems to me that this group is a little light on neurotypical. There are a lot of INTP and INTJ Meyers-Briggs personality types. A lot of high-functioning autists. When you are at the grocery store, do you straighten crooked boxes? That's your OCD. Types like us can't "let it go". They value truth so Mormonism is an affront to their sensibilities.

Is there truth in Mormonism? I have to admit there are some nuggets. However, they are drowned out by dogma. More importantly, for me, the culture clashes with my personality type.

I don't need organized religion. I certainly don't need high-demand social clubs pretending to be religions. I know thee now, thou art Lucifer. Yup, I can see TSCC for what it is.

In my opinion, OCD can also lead to religious scrupulosity, so it goes both ways.

Many years ago, it took me several months to figure out that a little boy in my class was likely autistic. Nowadays I can pick it out almost right away. I can think of at least three TV shows with autistic main characters (The Good Doctor, Professor T, and Astrid.) I think more people are aware of neuro-divergence than ever before.

I know a guy who brings up the MBTI in every conversation.

That guy is a typical INTP.
That guy is very INTJ.

Most people have no idea what he's talking about. I've taken the Myers Briggs test multiple times and every time I get a different result. The MBTI relies way too much on Jungian speculations and sounds like a research paper that was based on a research paper that were based on yet another research paper.

It's the Reid technique of Psychology. The Reid technique is an outdated police interrogation technique that has been implicated in numerous false confessions. Police start with simple questions that most people would answer truthfully.
What's your name?
How old are you?

Then when they get to the meat of the conversation, when the suspect might lie, and the suspect displays any body language that varies from their body language when they answered the baseline questions, that's a sign that they're lying.

I had an amateur try to use this with me in a personal conversation. I crossed my arms because the room was cold, and he said it was a sign of deception. LOL.

Or the suspect scratches their nose because it itches, and an overzealous cop misunderstands that as a sign of deception.

Getting back to the MBTI, the questions are written poorly. One question goes to people-pleasing. When the subject reads that, the question does not take into account who they are thinking about when they answer, or how a recent experience might affect that answer. I might be a people-pleaser at home, but at work I tell it like it is. How am I supposed to answer that?

Another is about avoiding confrontation. I do and I don't. I pick my battles. Do I avoid confrontation because I'm afraid, or do I avoid confrontation because I'm mature and I've learned to listen? Do I avoid confrontation until I get all the facts, then come out with all guns blazing? The test does not allow for those variances.

I just took it right before replying to this post. It reminded me of the Reid technique because it seems geared toward putting the subject into a corner, rather than actually helping them learn what type of personality they are. What was my type this time? I'd have to pay to find out, and I don't want to take the time to find a free one. I've already done that, like I said, and I get a different answer each time.

Not that I have a better alternative. The appeal to authority might be that it is used by corporations around the world to help people "understand themselves". Many things are used by corporations that are deeply flawed. That's why I have a job.

I'm not a psychologist, but I have a lot of questions about the MBTI. Is it really accurate? Can it help people understand themselves? Can it help us understand other people? Is it really anything more than a hypothesis?

Here's a funny thing that people use in Japan that I troll them on all the time. They think that blood types can help us know all about someone's personality. And once they know someone's blood type, they start to see them through a lens where only the personality traits that fit that blood type are noticed. I often troll my colleagues and tell them the wrong blood type.

Inevitably, they say, "I knew it! You are exactly the personality that goes with that blood type." They have no idea they're being trolled, and even if I tell them later that I was joking, they still only see the personality traits that go with the fake blood type I gave them.

Getting back to MBTI, is it possible that once someone tells their results, but gives them the wrong type, will others only see them as that type and treat them differently based on that mistaken type? If it's really necessary to treat people a certain way based off of a test, what if they treat them the wrong way and actually make matters worse.

That might be a more interesting troll than the blood type troll. I'll have to try that. Surely anybody who knows the 16 types well enough will eventually figure out I'm trolling, right? Or will confirmation bias get the best of them?

Maybe I'm just a guy who doesn't like to be put in boxes that don't fit. Cheers!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2023 10:31PM by T-Bone.

I have several friends who are anti-MB test crusaders. They also complain that their type changes every time they take the test. It is quite easy to "aim" for a particular result if that is your goal. When I ended up in the army, we had to take a personality test to guide the army in assigning us a military occupational specialty (MOS).

I answered every question that could be construed as how would I fare in a foxhole in the negative, and I can within 2 points of not qualifying for infantry. That was my goal. Anyway, I've decided that "people who completely disbelieve the MB test" is its own specific personality type.

It does have its problems. The categories are kind of arbitrary, and it is not clear how much each category interacts with the others - and it is quite possible to be on the borderline between categories - for instance neither particularly introvert or extrovert. The final category you get loses all that information. I have been pretty solidly I and J, just barely N and T.

But when the MB people say that only 3% of the people that take the test fall into the INTJ category, that is an actual, honest-to-god statistic. That doesn't mean the description assigned to the category is accurate, but it really does mean that only 3% of the test takers answer that way.

I've taken the MBTI 4 or 5 times over the years. INTJ every time. I imagine people on the cusp between categories would change over time, and those who react against this sort of test could pick any category they want and probably hit it.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have several friends who are anti-MB test
> crusaders. They also complain that their type
> changes every time they take the test. It is quite
> easy to "aim" for a particular result if that is
> your goal. When I ended up in the army, we had to
> take a personality test to guide the army in
> assigning us a military occupational specialty
> (MOS).

Not an anti-MBTI person. I guess you could say I'm more of a skeptic. I guess if one were to aim for a certain type, the test could be gamed. Actually, I found the questions difficult to answer because they are two-part questions, and a bit narrow.

I don't fully agree with McCarley and Carskadon's criticism because they based their conclusions on an older model of the MBTI, but they come very close. As long as the test is used in a descriptive, not prescriptive way.

> I answered every question that could be construed
> as how would I fare in a foxhole in the negative,
> and I can within 2 points of not qualifying for
> infantry. That was my goal. Anyway, I've decided
> that "people who completely disbelieve the MB
> test" is its own specific personality type.

That's me! On the borderline, of course. It still has some use, as it's a system for understanding people, and can be used as shorthand when colloquial terms fall short.

> It does have its problems. The categories are kind
> of arbitrary, and it is not clear how much each
> category interacts with the others - and it is
> quite possible to be on the borderline between
> categories - for instance neither particularly
> introvert or extrovert. The final category you get
> loses all that information. I have been pretty
> solidly I and J, just barely N and T.

I just wish it allowed for more nuance.

> But when the MB people say that only 3% of the
> people that take the test fall into the INTJ
> category, that is an actual, honest-to-god
> statistic. That doesn't mean the description
> assigned to the category is accurate, but it
> really does mean that only 3% of the test takers
> answer that way.
>
> I've taken the MBTI 4 or 5 times over the years.
> INTJ every time. I imagine people on the cusp
> between categories would change over time, and
> those who react against this sort of test could
> pick any category they want and probably hit it.

INTJ - definitely a logical thinker. The first time I took the test, I was INFP-A / INFP-T. The next time, I was INTP-T. So not completely different, but similar. The -T is what I found interesting.

I'm more of a fan of Tupes and Christal's "Big 5". Less black and white than the MBTI.
Openness
Conscientiousness
Extraversion
Agreeableness
Neuroticism

Also, it's much easier to remember the OCEAN model than 16 types under the MBTI. My biggest complaint is that I find it overwhelming. As someone who has not really studied this in great depth, I look for systems that are simple. I like simple. Give me bullet points.

As always, an enjoyable conversation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2023 06:14PM by T-Bone.

Can empathise. I was once accused of being defiant and aggressive for crossing my arms when I was cold. The accuser was a borderline hysteric who consumes pop- psychology non stop but doesn’t identify herself with any of her behaviours.

"I've taken the Myers Briggs test multiple times and every time I get a different result."

I have had the same experience, although I wasn't that surprised because several of the questions could go either way for me, depending on circumstances at the time.

I have taken it a bunch of times from different places over the years but I always get the same result lol. Sometimes I like to play with them to change them though.

I'm one of those INTJs here. They are referred to as "the scientist" in a descriptive book on the Myers-Briggs Test, and indeed are well represented in STEM professions and at universities, though they are only about 3% of the general population. They gravitate toward where their personality works. Think "Dilbert".

It seems pretty obvious that that personality type is particularly ill-suited to being Mormon, because that personality type is thick as thieves on RFM. We are the sort of people for whom evidence matters. That is why scientific fields are a good fit.

I do have a quibble. While Aspie and Aspie-adjacent personality frequently also has OCD characteristics, that is not a given. I score somewhere near the middle of "are you an aspie?" tests, and rock-bottom low on OCD.

BTW, I have for years considered aspie as just a more extreme version of INTJ. Also, aspies are notorious for not having a sense of humor. While my humor tends to be as dry as the Sahara, I do on occasion crack wise here, and of course Scott Adams (Dilbert) makes a living at it. So does Randall Munroe (XKCD)

I've taken that test a few times and it would seem that I'm personality fluid. Solidly I and solidly T, but the other letters just swirl around however they want to. ISTP seems to dominate, but I'll bet if I took it today, the J would be making a push for the top.

Nonetheless, when it comes to relationships with real people, i can't put a lot of cares into this personality type stuff...it's like trying to experience the Grand Canyon by looking at a bad map.

Whenever I share ow that super strong testimony of the Cheerios in Nursery got me down the path of being in the clutches of the Correlation program I'm trying to demonstrate what normal TB[long] is like so these pesky Exmormons and any of my fellow apologists who come along here. Our minds get wired by this program to think so peculiarly because of the washing by immersion our brains receive. And then we have as our only real goal to be even more super obedient to the Brethren and the local overlords they appoint to have dominion over us and to guide us on all our actions and thoughts to make sure we're good obedient sunbeams for Jesus.


Most important of all - I share with them what Exaltation will look like and why it makes most sense for people who like to sift through hundreds of millions of SPAM box messages every hour 24/7 for the rest of all eternity. It's a wondrously appealing prospect that'll help remind people here on what they're missing out if they have to go somewhere else like the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms. When people are reminded of how appealing this Exaltation future can be then they might be more motivated to become good obedient sunbeams enduring to the end.

Thank heavens that the Correlation program is defined as Normal by what I was taught in this program. Otherwise I might do something risky and not approved like ask serious questions. And we're not really taught that as our main focus is on strict obedience and assimilation.

Normal igs just a setting of devices such as your washer & dryer, we shouldn't overthink it.

Autistic people are normal

LGQBT people are normal

left-handed people are normal

tall & short, slender & overweight people are normal

Some religious people, including Mos are normal

I am abby normal and I have actually straightened cans and boxes at the grocery store.I have also tipped grocery carts on their sides to look at the wheels to see why they did not roll right.

...not gonna point any fingers, but I always smile at myself when I see my reflection!

Not sure what my numbers and letters are. It bores me and unnerves me a little bit, the thought of being categorized like that. I'd rather not know so I never have to tell.

I am definitely on the spectrum though. That categorization has been helpful, understanding my symptoms and knowing how to use and deal with them in a neurotypical world. And it helps looking back into the past, realizing how much Mormonism both preyed upon my mannerisms, and how it never fit perfectly, thus allowing me to find the crease in the wall to escape through.

Mormons for many years proudly proclaimed the were a peculiar people.

The one doctrine that was and is true.

We are a peculiar people and one of the most important responsibility of us apologists is to clearly explain the full truth to people on why we're so peculiar and not just do the "milk before meat" baloney or other dishonest tactics to explain the Church to people. Then people can make a decision on whether they'll assimilate based on truthfulness. And besides as a True Church we really don't have any choice but to be completely honest/transparent because that's just what "true" means :)

So far I haven't had much luck convincing the exmos that they should get re-assimilated as I've tried to accurately describe Exaltation :(

If any of you love to read and respond to all of your SPAM messages then Exaltation is for you. Imagine spending the rest of all time/eternity on a 24/7 basis plugged into your INBOX handling hundreds of millions of prayers/supplications from your Spirit Children. You won't have to worry about vacations or stupid days or evenings of rest. You will just be super busy plugged in to your INBOX handling all the requests that come from your Spirit Children. Oh how great shall be your joy :)

One thing that makes us so peculiar is because of how much we look forward to that Eternal SPAM inbox 24/7 :) It's why we sacrifice so much and endure to the end here on Earth as good obedient Sunbeams. Sure we could do other stuff. But we're in it for this Exaltation.

There is no normal.

I don't know any normal people at least.

Peter Pan didn't want to grow up, and with that thought floating around, I don't want to be normal.

several years ago and I haven't a clue what the results were.

By the time I got married, having worked until I was 27 before I got married, I had decided I didn't want to be like mormon women. I grew up in a family that do not act mormon. I had been the most devout next to my mother probably.

So here at 66, I don't consider myself normal and I sure haven't lived a normal mormon life from the moment I was born. Because of how devout I had been, my parents were shocked when I quit going to church, but they didn't know the story. They were very supportive of me, especially my mother, which I was surprised about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2023 10:26AM by cl2.

Sometimes people ask me if I'm on "the spectrum" and I say I hope so cuz if not I'm dead. I consider everyone on a spectrum. I try to stay on at least half a dozen spectrums. Variety.

Good to steer clear of people who consider themselves "normal" as that means they are fooling themselves in a snobby judgmental sort of way as they declare themselves the winners with all the answers like they are some prophet or talk to god or something.

Our crick was Line Crick and I was always up it without a paddle. You don't need one if you smart enough to stay away from the stream during spring run off.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes people ask me if I'm on "the spectrum"
> and I say I hope so cuz if not I'm dead. I
> consider everyone on a spectrum. I try to stay on
> at least half a dozen spectrums. Variety.
>
> Good to steer clear of people who consider
> themselves "normal" as that means they are fooling
> themselves in a snobby judgmental sort of way as
> they declare themselves the winners with all the
> answers like they are some prophet or talk to god
> or something.
>
> Our crick was Line Crick and I was always up it
> without a paddle. You don't need one if you smart
> enough to stay away from the stream during spring
> run off.

If you watch videos from autistic people, two of the things they complain about are statements like "everyone's a little autistic" and "we're all on the spectrum". Apparently we are not.

The Myers-Briggs test often functions as little more than a secular horoscope.

Whats normal?

I have taken at least a dozen communication courses and even more required seminars related to communication. Many personality tests and quizzes as required.

During this time I found I could manipulate a personality test. I did this once while working for a government entity, most my co-workers leaned hard to the left. So I knew to maintain how I was viewed I had to fit just a little left of center for them to not give me grief, I missed the mark by one point! Made my job easy, and I was not labeled.

But over all I have learned this:

Brigg Meyer - I am a INTJ (architect), I can move in and out of ISTJ, but overall I am an INTJ. I am a sigma male and either a D or a C personality depending upon the test. One teacher I had played a song for me to describe my personality..."We are the Champions".

My deal is efficiency, structure, organization, and planning. If I walk through your house I will stay silent, but if you ask. I will point out every flaw, hole in the wall, dirt spot, worn items, etc. I am fine with clutter, because it comes and goes, but I hate a dirty and poorly maintained home or vehicle.

I remember all the pricing in the stores, and objectively look at goods for price versus value. I am a nightmare to a car salesman, and people always tell me that I must come with them when they purchase theirs. Things work in my home, and the walls, floors, and fixtures look the same the day it was built. Most people ask me if I am a professional landscaper.

I have been planning my retirement since I was 16, and I balk at purchasing and maintaining toys that spend most of the time sitting in the drive way or side yard. I maintain backups to anything essential, and I never allow my wife to leave on a trip without my packing a emergency kit and full size spare tire in the back of the car.

Religion makes no sense to me since, it is not organized to optimal benefit to those it supposedly serves, relies upon emotion, and promotes theory that cannot be proven from a rational point of view.

So..........what is normal?

I have taken at least a dozen communication courses and even more required seminars related to communication. Many personality tests and quizzes as required.

During this time I found I could manipulate a personality test. I did this once while working for a government entity, most my co-workers leaned hard to the left. So I knew to maintain how I was viewed I had to fit just a little left of center for them to not give me grief, I missed the mark by one point! Made my job easy, and I was not labeled.

COMMENT: All psychological tests rely upon their subjects answering truthfully. The statistical results and conclusions inferred from such tests (individually and globally) are based upon that assumption. Moreover, people can answer 'truthfully' but inaccurately, for example, as they unconsciously wish they were. The fact that you (and others) can manipulate the results, or otherwise that the responses may not be accurate, is one key reason why such tests are universally denied scientific status.
____________________________________________________

But over all I have learned this:

Brigg Meyer - I am a INTJ (architect), I can move in and out of ISTJ, but overall I am an INTJ. I am a sigma male and either a D or a C personality depending upon the test. One teacher I had played a song for me to describe my personality..."We are the Champions".

COMMENT: So, you know, and have proven, that such tests are flawed, yet you rely upon it to assess your own personality. (And rather proudfully I might add.)

I'm an introvert, and Mormons don't accept the fact. They needed for me to socialize with unlikable people. Sometimes I think that religion is a lonely hearts club.

Pseudoscience at its worst. It amazes me that even some "scientific types" actually seem to take this seriously.

Here is an Abstract of a study on the effectiveness MBTI:

"Despite its immense popularity and impressive longevity, the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) has existed in a parallel universe to social and personality psychology. Here, we seek to increase academic awareness of this incredibly popular idea and provide a novel teaching reference for its conceptual flaws. We focus on examining the validity of the Jungian-based theory behind MBTI that specifies that people have a “true type” delineated across four dichotomies. We find that the MBTI theory falters on rigorous theoretical criteria in that it lacks agreement with known facts and data, lacks testability, and possesses internal contradictions. We further discuss what MBTI's continued popularity says about how the general public might evaluate scientific theories."

https://compass.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/spc3.12434

This represents a consensus opinion in the scientific community.

Note: There is no such thing as a "normal" human personality. However, there *is* such a thing as an average or statistically assessed response to a written test, or set of questions, or to some specified behavior occurring under specified conditions. Of course, in neither case do the statistical results mean a thing as to either what variables exist in the real world as related to human personality, or what 'natural' categories exist when discussing human nature.

What do you mean by "take this seriously", and how do you determine how "seriously" it has been taken?

Don't you just sometimes want to join a party and have some fun?

It turns out I'm a high-functioning idiot!