Ásatrú, the Icelandic name for their former pagan religion, is now the second largest religion in Iceland, after Christianity. This is a relatively recent phenomenon, but it sounds genuine, as opposed to being a passing fad/joke (e.g. Pastafarians)

I wonder if the name (Ásatrú) is related in any way to Ishtar/Astarte from the ancient Middle East. The similarity could be just pure coincidence, but if so, it is a pretty remarkable one. Hopefully this is one of the things covered in LW's preschool curriculum.

Here's the whole article. No paywall.

https://religionnews.com/2024/02/06/after-1000-years-a-new-temple-to-the-norse-gods-rises-in-iceland/

>I wonder if the name (Ásatrú) is related in any way to Ishtar/Astarte from the ancient Middle East


https://www.thorsoak.info/p/asatru.html

"The word Ásatrú is modern Icelandic for “Æsir Faith” and refers to belief in the major tribe of Norse deities. Practitioners often self-identify as Heathens, and the term Heathenry is generally used to refer to the wider range of contemporary religions related to various Northern European polytheistic traditions dating back to approximately 2000 BCE."

> I wonder if the name (Ásatrú) is related in any
> way to Ishtar/Astarte from the ancient Middle
> East.

That seems unlikely since Icelandic is a northern German language. The German languages, in turn, migrated out of the Tripolye culture of Western Ukraine and Carpathian Romania around 3000-2700 BCE. There may have been some distant exchange since the Maykop culture just north of Mesopotamia did interact with local steppe groups, but if the Icelandic Asatru gods came from Maykop, the names of those gods would appear as loan words into the Indo-Euopean languages rather than having native etymologies. In the Indian case, for example, it's clear that "Indra" was originally a non-Indo-European god--probably absorbed from the BMAC culture of Central Asia or even proto-Uralic--because the name appeared out of nowhere and cannot be explained in terms of Indo-European roots.

By contrast, the Icelandic Asatru divinities do in fact have Indo-European etymologies. For example, the names of the "Aesir" gods are cognates with the Sanskrit "Asura" and the Iranian "Ahura" ("god" or "lord," as in Ahura Mazda). So the problem with your proposition is that the Asatru religion has no demonstrable etymological trail from Ishtar/Asarte/Innana and the Asatru gods themselves are clearly Indo-European.

It makes a lot more sense to me that nations and cultures go with their indigenous spiritual practices as opposed to those adopted from a Middle Eastern people with whom they have little in common. JMO. And no, I'm not in favor of Aztec human sacrifices, lol. I just like cultural integrity.

There is no such thing as "cultural integrity."

Take any place in the world and look at what happened over time. Consider the Middle East. No one knows what the original Neanderthals worshiped, but worship they did. Presumably when Neanderthal and HSS populations mixed, they shared religious ideas and emerged from the interaction with new pantheons.

When the agricultural revolution occurred some 10,000 years ago, the result was to increase massively the population that could be sustained in any particular geography. When the local environment was saturated, farmers took their technology and their families to other people's lands, where their much higher fertility rates quickly swamped the locals. Genetically that meant that the dominant people's Y-chromosomes displaced almost all of the pre-existing people's Y-chromosomes because the male newcomers had a reproductive advantage. The same thing happened with language and religion: the hunter-gatherers' words and gods were replaced in short order.

Then there are developments in the Pontic-Caspian steppe--development of the wheel, the development of the wheeled cart, domestication of the horse--that enabled Indo-Europeans to invade Anatolia and impose their own languages and gods while doing the same thing across the steppe, in the southern parts of the European forests, and in Eastern Europe. A millennium later the Indo-Europeans at Sintashta in the southern Urals invented the war chariot and then spread across much of India, Iran, Mycenaean Greece, even Western China, replacing in each of these areas the old languages and gods with their own. That's why the main pre-Christian Icelandic gods are closely related to some of the Iranian deities.

Later came the emergence in China of the dominant Han people, who suppressed the languages and religions of earlier peoples; Roman Christianity, which displaced countless cultures in the Mediterranean basin and Europe; and later still Islam, which did the same thing from Eastern Europe and northern Africa to Western China and Southeast Asia. The story goes on and on.

This leaves no more room for "cultural integrity" than for genetic integrity. Take any people and go back three hundred years. Do you see the same religions? The same goods, the same languages? Usually not.

So which are the indigenous Icelandic gods? Those worshiped by the hunter-gatherers? Those imposed by the Germanic peoples of the Corded Ware culture? Later Christianity? Today's humanism?

"When the local environment was saturated, farmers took their technology and their families to other people's lands, where their much higher fertility rates quickly swamped the locals."

That is so Mormony

Perhaps of interest.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0Yuibsf1tVI/TMjYVSdfXnI/AAAAAAAAAAM/ESpISblwLHs/s1600/scan0001.jpg

That post sounds AI generated.

You need to get out more.

Has anyone informed the Icelanders that the mormons have already baptized their pantheon by proxy into The Only True and Living Church on the Face of the Earth, and that Odin, Thor, et al. are mormons now?

Odin could easily be the President of the 744th East Paradise Stake by now, reporting directly to Asgard Area President John Widtsoe.

I can't believe what I just read.

“Ásatrúarfélagið” is supposed to be a “real” religion in contrast to the joke religion of the “Pastafarians”? Do you actually assume that significant groups of Icelanders really believe in this Hollywood nonsense? So it's "the second largest religion in Iceland", but perhaps it's worth noting that only 5,000 people profess it (which doesn't mean they're serious about it). And what should we understand by the apparently welcome “indigenous spiritual practices”? Is something perhaps resurfacing here that is somehow in the Icelandic genes? Or what else does a costume nonsense founded in 1972 and inspired by Nazi ideology have to do with a religion that was abandoned 1000 years ago? But at least someone is happy that "nations and cultures" no longer want to have anything to do with the Jews, with whom they have "little in common".

I can't eat as much as I want to puke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2024 07:36PM by fritz.

Hitler's Nazis were Christian, not Pagan.

If people find the Abrahamic God irrelevant to their culture and their cultural roots, I can't say that I blame them. What is irrelevant in Japan or India can be equally irrelevant in Iceland.

The majority of the Third Reich's population was nominally Christian, but many National Socialists favored a form of Christianity with Jewish aspects minimized. The NSDAP itself grew out of a völkisch occult group and the Third Reich legislated for pseudo-pagan festivals. Hitler himself was fairly neutral on the subject although it seems Himmler was more of a fan. The most obvious use of pagan imagery was their use of runes, which they felt exuded mystical powers. The SS lightning bolts are the best known of these.

There is certainly an appreciable "pagan" influence on early National Socialism.

Bagpuss Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> . . . many National Socialists
> favored a form of Christianity with Jewish aspects
> minimized.

Don't you mean "favored a form of Christianity with JEWS minimized?” Because killing six million of them certainly counts, in your appallingly euphemistic words, as "minimizing" them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2024 07:35PM by Lot's Wife.

I looked into this when visiting, and came away with the impression that it was mostly white/nordic supremacist cosplay with a little sex and lots of alcohol consumption.

It could be, but it could also be people enjoying and celebrating their own Nordic culture. I'd like to see a citation of that -- hard evidence.

You don't seem to have understood what I was trying to say (perhaps inadequately): Icelandic culture was dominated by Christianity (yes - that un-Norse Jewish thing) for 1000 years, and there was no real cultural continuity of the old Thor beliefs. So what does “their own Nordic culture” mean and what is it based on? Blue eyes, light skin, other special genes?

It's based on their traditional stories, myths, and traditions. I'm at a loss as to why this is too hard, or what it has to do with their skin or eye color.

If people are happy exploring their cultural roots, what is that to you, really? If you fear this puts them in the path of White Supremacy, as I pointed out elsewhere on this thread, Hitler's Nazis were Christian. White Supremacists latch on to all sorts of things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2024 05:49AM by summer.

" joke religion" .... like your religion ?

Germans:
I wish there were more information on Tacitus' writings on the Germans' god Tuisto and his son Mannus.

In their ancient songs, which are their only records or annals, they celebrate the god Tuisto, sprung from the earth, and his son Mannus, as the fathers and founders of their race.

The interesting connection to "Tuisto" is the German word for "german" is "Deutsch" which appears to me to be close to "Tuisto."

Who is this Father and Son combination in Tacitus' annals?
Since Tuisto arose from the already-created Earth, He is not to be confused, I believe, with a father-son creator godhead.
Maybe Tuisto and Mannus are father-son hennotheistic gods of the German people.

Other odd fact: "Deutsch" is believed to mean something like "of the people" but "Das deutsche Volk" would then mean "the people of the people." More information is wanted.

I'm not sure why one would rely on Tacitus, a Roman historian who was unaware of the byzantine relationships between Indo-European languages, to understand something as complicated as proto-Germanic and Germanic.

It is common for ethnicities to call themselves "the people," or "the folk," to distinguish themselves from others. Sometimes different ethnicities unwittingly use words for themselves that in fact came from the same origins.

"Deutsch" and "Dutch" stem from the Old High German "diutisc." Meanwhile "Deutschland" stems from "Diutiskland," which is obviously an exact parallel. And all of those terms ultimately derive from the proto-Indo-European "tewte´h", meaning "the people" or "the community," when that language existed some 5,000 years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2024 06:47PM by Lot's Wife.

Osiris and the great Gods of Egypt will crush them with the weight of Pyramids on their heads!

"Tell the believers and the non-believers. Tell them we've taken the spring. They can have it back when they pray for it."

-- Mr. Wednesday


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK0QCW5aSOs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2024 10:06AM by anybody.

I have been following a murder trial in Delphi Indiana in which Odinists are being blamed on the graphic murder of two young teens. I was unfamiliar with Odinism until a few months ago.

That's awful. The worst Mormons did in the temple was naked baths. I wonder if TSCC could adopt heathen rituals for the temple. I mean, since the Masonic death penalties were removed they should add something to spice things up.

According to this article, the claim of Odinists involvement is coming from the defense

https://nypost.com/2023/09/19/delphi-murder-victims-were-sacrificed-by-racist-cult-suspects-attorneys/

Also see here

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/crime/odinism-understanding-a-term-central-to-a-recent-delphi-murders-filing-indiana-white-supremacy/531-5a114cb3-b80e-469e-be94-f3bc517e03da

"Still, of all the terms rooted in European paganism contained in the court filing, Odinism is the one experts today said hints most strongly at affiliations with white supremacy. It is rarely used in Europe.

“There's a thing to keep in mind with Odinism. That is that has, from the beginning, been associated with the white supremacist interpretation of [Nordic paganism]. So, there are very few people who call themselves Odinists who don't admit to some level of sympathy for white supremacy,” said Nordvig.

The word "folk" or "folkish" also hints at ties to white supremacy groups.

A more complicated term is Asatrú, which also pops up in the Carroll County filing. That term refers to the general worship of Nordic gods and goddesses, and Asatrú has been officially recognized as a religion in Iceland since 1972.

In tracking whether certain groups have ties to white supremacist organizations, Nordvig said he tends to find European references to Asatrú are talking about the original, European pagan belief system. Those groups are often not racist.

However, references to Asatrú in the United States are more likely to have ties to white supremacist groups. The use of the word Asatrú by white supremacists has prompted many of pagan faiths to do away with the term altogether.

“I have seen in recent years that people who identify with more liberal ideology lean towards Norse paganism as a term, and shy away from Asatrú, because as they say, it has been tainted by being co-opted by different white supremacist, and extreme right organizations. But, on the other hand, in Europe, Asatrú is the common term. In Europe, if you say Asatrú, people would not necessarily associate that with any form of extremism," Nordvig said."

Fair enough. So some pagan followers are into White Supremacy, just like some Christians are into White Supremacy.

A couple of police detectives decided to follow the possibility of pagan involvement in the murders. They traced down a university professor who was knowledgeable about Odinism and he told the detectives "yes" the diagram or picture of the tortured girls was definitely Odinist based. When the lawyers got the discovery from the prosecution the professor couldn't be found and the detectives could not remember his name.

Also, two of the prison guards (not a prison gang) who were caring for the suspect had Odinism signs/patches on their work jackets openly displayed.

This is all part of what makes this crime and upcoming trial so interesting.

Norse pagan symbols (such as the Hammer of Thor) are often worn for cultural reasons instead of religious reasons.

When I visited Europe as a teen I was shocked to see swastikas used in old Roman floor mosaics. A guide set me straight on the history of the symbol.

As it turns out the swasticka used to be a positive symbol of happiness and goodness but the Nazi's changed all that by taking it over. As a result most people today know the swastika as Hitler's mark.

Yes, sadly. I think the swastika originated in India, and as you stated, only had positive connotations. I was taught that by one of my art history professors in college.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, I thought the correct spelling is "PastafraNarian".

Who's the arbitor on this matter?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2024 02:10PM by GNPE.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/views/people/64299/the-high-priest-of-asatru-on-the-push-to-revive-icelands-foremost-pagan-religion


The high priest of Ásatrú on the push to revive Iceland’s foremost pagan religion

Despite attempts by white supremacists to co-opt it, the Ásatrú Fellowship is based on openness and respect for the environment, argues Hilmar Örn Hilmarsson.

The temple has been beset by delays, including those caused by the pandemic, but Hilmarsson hopes to open the doors in a little over two years’ time.

“I think mankind needs this,” he says—an ethical system to live by. “If we can learn to be sensible, I think the future is very bright.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2024 02:08AM by Maude.

I like what I'm hearing about what Hilmarsson is doing in Iceland. Hopefully the movement can stave off the White Supremacist crowd abroad.

I really prefer the Roman and Greek Gods. Why we all gave them up for Heavenly Father instead is beyond me.

Dumbing down. It's what humans do best. I could cite some present day examples, but, well . . . you can just watch the news.

They were a heck of a lot more entertaining!