If you thought Francis was too liberal, think again.

I fear for the innocent lives that will be destroyed by this.


There's a market for babies, so let's see if people of means will actually obey this.


##############

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vatican-gender_n_6613dff2e4b0d81853f9df35

The Vatican on Monday declared gender-affirming surgery and surrogacy as grave violations of human dignity, putting them on par with abortion and euthanasia as practices that reject God’s plan for human life.

The Vatican’s doctrine office issued “Infinite Dignity,” a 20-page declaration that has been in the works for five years. After substantial revision in recent months, it was approved March 25 by Pope Francis, who ordered its publication.

In its most eagerly anticipated section, the Vatican repeated its rejection of “gender theory,” or the idea that one’s gender can be changed. It said God created man and woman as biologically different, separate beings, and said people must not tinker with that plan or try to “make oneself God.”

“It follows that any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception,” the document said.

It distinguished between gender-affirming surgeries, which it rejected, and “genital abnormalities” that are present at birth or that develop later. Those abnormalities can be “resolved” with the help of health care professionals, it said.

The document’s existence, rumored since 2019, was confirmed in recent weeks by the new prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Argentine Cardinal Víctor Manuel Fernández, a close Francis confidant.


In a newly articulated position, it says surrogacy violates both the dignity of the surrogate mother and the child. While much attention about surrogacy has focused on possible exploitation of poor women as surrogates, the Vatican document focuses almost more on the resulting child.

“The child has the right to have a fully human (and not artificially induced) origin and to receive the gift of a life that manifests both the dignity of the giver and that of the receiver,” the document said. “Considering this, the legitimate desire to have a child cannot be transformed into a ‘right to a child’ that fails to respect the dignity of that child as the recipient of the gift of life.”


##############

I dunno, pushing back against mass hysteria has been good in the past.

The best estimates to date are less than 2% of the population.


"Blonde Extinction Fear" is real, but blonde people aren't going extinct. Alien abduction fear is real, but actual alien abduction is unproven. Fear of someone "converting" you to the opposite sex against your will is just in your mind -- unless you are a gay man in Iran.


#########


https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-study-estimates-16-million-us-identify-transgender-2022-06-10/


#########

https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-examines-the-social-contagion-hypothesis-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-identities/

A study published today in Pediatrics, using a large national dataset of adolescents in the U.S., provided evidence against the notion that adolescents in the U.S. come to identify as transgender due to “social contagion.”

The study also found that the percentage of teens openly identifying as transgender or gender diverse (TGD) did not increase between 2017 and 2019. Additionally, contrary to past research with smaller samples, teens assigned female at birth were not overrepresented among TGD adolescents in the U.S. It is the largest study to date to examine the controversial hypothesis that more adolescents who were assigned female at birth have identified as TGD because of “social contagion.” The study adds important new knowledge to the evolving field of transgender health care and ongoing public debate of legislative measures regulating access to gender-affirming health care.

“The hypothesis that transgender and gender diverse youth assigned female at birth identify as transgender due to social contagion does not hold up to scrutiny and should not be used to argue against the provision of gender-affirming medical care for adolescents,” said study senior author Dr. Alex S. Keuroghlian, who directs the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at The Fenway Institute and the Massachusetts General Hospital Psychiatry Gender Identity Program.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2024 11:47AM by anybody.

The Vatican plays the role of Snake Pliskin: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8OilisaAv0I

Surgery produces huge profits. They are always looking for someone to cut up, so I am always wary of unnecessary surgeries being promoted, especially to people incapable of informed consent.

I don't see how it's possible, so please "explain" it to me.

Here's an ex-Evangelical "born again christian" mother, how or why would she go through all of the rejection, loss of employment, having to flee to another state, why?


##########

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIkLNsRtas

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Surgery produces huge profits. They are always
> looking for someone to cut up, so I am always wary
> of unnecessary surgeries being promoted,
> especially to people incapable of informed
> consent.

Could you clarify? Who are the people "incapable of informed consent". Sorry if I'm being clueless...

Oh. Got it. Thanks.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bradley Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Surgery produces huge profits. They are always
> > looking for someone to cut up, so I am always
> wary
> > of unnecessary surgeries being promoted,
> > especially to people incapable of informed
> > consent.
>
> Could you clarify? Who are the people "incapable
> of informed consent". Sorry if I'm being
> clueless...

Minors. I have no problem with adults getting this surgery if they are mentally compotent. Children who are in the single digits are not capable of understanding the issues. Some of them regret it later and there have been court cases about it. Look up John Money and David Reimer.

Some of these people have to buy hormones for the rest of their lives. Which is expensive.

without any counseling or psychological screening -- but they aren't regarded as a "threat" to male sexuality. They cater to it.

There was even a song about this...

Lords Of Acid -- "I Must Increase My Bust" (Explicit Language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jzVJjk32E


When you get through the religion, politics, etc, what you are left with are people, mostly men but also some women who value their place in a patriarchal system and want no dilemmas or thinking.


Utah, BTW, is the plastic surgery capital of the USA


##########


https://universe.byu.edu/2022/10/10/reshaping-utah-understanding-the-plastic-surgery-epidemic/


Driving through Utah, it’s impossible to miss the billboards lining the freeway advertising cosmetic and plastic surgery. It may come as a shock to learn that Salt Lake City has the second-highest number of plastic surgeons per capita in America while being one of the most religious states in the country.

The American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery reported in 2016, Americans spent 15 billion dollars on cosmetic procedures and nonsurgical aesthetic procedures. In a state where 87% of Utans identify as white and 57% as Mormon, you can’t help but question some sort of correlation between the two factors.

Whether it’s a trend or a way culture has told young women how they should look, it is definitely noticeable among women in Utah following perfectionist ideals.


#########


https://www.commondreams.org/news/utah-transgender-healthcare


Utah GOP Excludes Cisgender Teen Breast Implants From Gender-Affirming Care Ban



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2024 05:41PM by anybody.

Yeah -- women get fake boobs, fake butts, fake everything. And we are worried about a legal adult who wants to surgically transition? It seems hypocritical.

As usual, Roman Catholics will listen politely and then do what they want.

If you aren't a Catholic, what difference does it make to you?

I'm not a Mormon, I could care s--t about garments.

"Captain America" (2011) -- "I don't like bullies."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQRHZmgmKuA

Take a quick look at the Supreme Court and get back to us.

By calling it "gender affirming" you are already using loaded language to subvert discussion. You follow this up by referring to it as "treatment" rather than "procedure" which would be a neutral term.

Here is the Vatican document in its entirety, if anyone wants to have a look at it:

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20240402_dignitas-infinita_en.html

Section 60 is the relevant section in terms of gender identity. It's interesting that the Vatican distinguishes between "sex-change intervention" (their words) and corrective surgery for those born with genital abnormalities. If one's gender is so sacred, then why endorse any surgery at all? Corrective surgery in the case of gential abnormalities always makes a choice of gender, but what if that is the wrong choice? Where is the dignity in that?

They have no shame and no consistency.

I wish they didn't still have the influence they do. They cause more harm than good IMO.

Why would they want to alienate members and potential members by getting involved in people's private lives to this extent?

Sorry for the big duh on this one from me. Perhaps it's due to me considering that the issue is (1) private and (2) medical/physiological. And I guess (3) would be my opinion that churches should just be there to serve whichever people want to come through their doors, not as the great big unwanted bully in the room that demands that no matter what, conforming is the number one principle of the known universe.

Also, you'd think they'd be happy to fill up the pews with as many people as want to be there.

Also, compassion for others would be a good doctrine for a church to teach and practice.

You'd think.

They can cause so much pain and misery. Not, I would have thought, their raison d'être.

But at least they're being upfront, I guess, about what their "standards" are. People are free to choose to dis-attend, avoid, not join in the first place. Except for those born-in. The born-ins who don't want to, or can't, conform are unfortunately the ones who can suffer the most by feeling unwanted, rejected, unworthy. It's a terrible thing for a church/leaders/congregants to institute and allow to carry on.

Maybe they too easily overlook/misinterpret the Golden Rule - Do Unto Others.

To me that's the "gospel" in a nutshell. But I'm not a trained church leader so what do I know. {{sarc}}

I hate it when "they" make me sad. I can't stand to think of hurting people not flourishing as they could in a more suitable environment.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2024 10:26PM by Nightingale.

But really, I don't see how this could be a surprise to anyone. It's the Vatican.

Do you support female genital mutilation? What if the Catholics came out against FGM? Would that be bad too? Because unnecessary gender reassignment surgery is the same as FGM.

If gender affirming care (a woke religious practice) doesn't deserve criticism, neither do Islamic practices such as FGM or stoning for adultery.

FGM is usually done to young females without their consent. The closest equivalent in the Western world is circumcision for men, although I would argue that it's not nearly as extreme. No one ever claimed that circumcision preserved virtue.

Why do you think this?

It's not the same thing and you know it. It's been known since ancient times.

You sound like this is some sort of "fad" or trend when it's simply part of the human experience. For reasons that are not fully understood at present, about two percent of the human population has a gender that isn't the same as their biological sex.

The question is what to do about it.

Do you force people to repress their identity or do you let them live as themselves?

The difference between now and then is that modern medical science makes it possible.

##########

https://sahiyo.org/sahiyo-blog/gender-affirming-treatments-are-not-female-genital-cutting.html

Medical care for transgender people is their choice as part of their right to bodily autonomy, whereas FGC violates a girl’s right to bodily autonomy. Minors are often forced to undergo FGC and are too young to fully understand what is occurring and give their consent. Furthermore, consent cannot be given when there is coercion. FGC often exists as a result of societal pressure placed on girls who are told FGC is necessary for them to be a woman, to be a member of their own culture and society, and to be married. Consent can not be freely given to undergo FGC, because coercion will always be a dangerous factor. It is harmful and incorrect to conflate FGC with gender-affirming care.

##########

It's always the same arguments...they're too young to understand, etc.

First of all, there's medical and psychological screening involved. It takes years. No one is operating on kids against their will.

Don't listen to an ally like me. Get it from the source:


Rebekah Bruesehoff and her family address all of these issues.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=d3M2kd_VmeM
https://youtube.com/watch?v=an9wzyJgBMM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If gender affirming care (a woke religious
> practice) doesn't deserve criticism, neither do
> Islamic practices such as FGM or stoning for
> adultery.

I don't understand this comment either. How is gender affirming care related, at all, to religious practice, especially 'woke' (a term I personally cannot stand when it's used as a pejorative, if it matters at all to anyone, which it doesn't but I'm just saying).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_psychiatry


EV Fundies and the far right think that "woke" is some kind of mind pollution or crazy ideology that makes people do "bizarre" things, and if you get rid of the "woke" mind virus, you'll be "normal" again (i.e. just like them).


What is "woke?"

########

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke


Woke is an adjective derived from African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) meaning "alert to racial prejudice and discrimination".[1][2] Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as racial injustice, sexism, and denial of LGBT rights. Woke has also been used as shorthand for some ideas of the American Left involving identity politics and social justice, such as white privilege and reparations for slavery in the United States.[3][4][5]

########


Being aware of bias or discrimination and wanting to treat people fairly used to be called basic human decency.


Here's a real "faith promoting" story. Imaging being a mixed-race black kid growing up in Nazi Germany. Lots of bad, but there were some good people who helped him.


########

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Massaquoi


After the Nuremberg Laws were passed in 1935, Massaquoi was officially classified as non-Aryan and barred from pursuing a course of education leading to a professional career. Instead he was forced to embark on an apprenticeship as a laborer. A few months before he completed school, Massaquoi was required to go to a government-run job center, where his assigned vocational counselor was Herr von Vett, a member of the SS. Upon seeing the "telltale black SS insignia of dual lightning bolts in the lapel of his civilian suit",[4] Massaquoi expected humiliation. Instead, he was surprised when he was greeted with "a friendly wink", offered a seat and asked to present something he had made. After showing Von Vett an axe and discussing his experience working for a local blacksmith, Massaquoi was informed that he could "be of great service to Germany one day" because there would be a great demand for technically trained Germans to go to Africa to train and develop an African workforce when Germany reclaimed its African colonies.[5] Before Massaquoi left the interview, Von Vett invited him to shake his hand, an unusual move not in keeping with the behavior of other Nazi officials Massaquoi had encountered outside of his neighborhood.[6]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2024 05:25PM by anybody.

Thanks, anybody. I had a general idea of the meaning but mostly (?always) hear it in the form of an intended scathing rebuke spoken/written in a disparaging tone or manner. I always kind of laugh because it's like the person employing it is intending to criticize or diminish or insult another but instead it falls flat because there's such a positive connotation to it.

Here is an excerpt from the Merriam-Webster online (comprehensive) definition:

"aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice).

"But we will only succeed if we reject the growing pressure to retreat into cynicism and hopelessness. … We have a moral obligation to "stay woke," take a stand and be active; challenging injustices and racism in our communities and fighting hatred and discrimination wherever it rises."

If somebody wants to criticize me for that - I'll take it!


(I can't post the link or other excerpts as it includes references to current US politics - not permitted here, for obvious reasons).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2024 06:55PM by Nightingale.

They also rejected condom use in the middle of an Aides epidemic in Africa.
Pure
Evil

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They also rejected condom use in the middle of an
> Aides epidemic in Africa.
> Pure
> Evil

Yeah, that was a big duh.

Again - a medical measure employed to prevent the spread of a potentially deadly disease. (Does that sound familiar at all?!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2024 06:58PM by Nightingale.