Recovery Board
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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Well, go find out.
Don't take my word for it.
Find out for yourself.
I know a trans kid who is now a teenager. I met her when she was four years old. I'm a friend of the family. This isn't "fake," nor would it be possible to "fake" it for over a decade. Would you really go through losing your job, being rejected by your family, go through a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding and move because of death threats, etc. just for social media "likes?"
I don't think so.
When I hear the "they're too young, how could they possibly know" comment, I think of my own childhood. It was pretty much impossible for my parents to force me to do anything. They might be able to talk me into it, but if they were trying to "con" me, I'd figure it out pretty quick. I don't buy the "satanic parents infected with the woke mind virus" trying to "turn" their children argument. It just doesn't make any sense.
When you go round and round with all of the stereotypical arguments, what it boils down to is something like "I don't want to live in a world where I can't just assume a persons sexual provenance by simple inspection." It's very much like the "menace from within" argument against mixed-race people who could pass for "white" or Jews that didn't "look" like Jews.
The least you could do is try to support people so they won't have their bodies physically altered against their will by puberty (probably the opposite of what you were thinking, right?) by allowing them to have medical treatment until they are of legal age so they won't kill themselves...but then they'd be able to "pass" and you wouldn't be able to "tell."
It's hard enough to get kids to get vaccinated or take cough medicine, much less live and act as a "different" gender.
Like I said, don't take my word for it.
##########
https://19thnews.org/2023/10/church-transgender-family-faith-book/
Jamie Bruesehoff grew up in the Lutheran church. Her husband has been a pastor for 20 years. As their daughter, Rebekah, explored her gender expression and grew into her identity as a transgender girl, they made it a point to tell her that God doesn’t make mistakes — she is who she is meant to be.
Rebekah, now 16, has sometimes struggled with her Christian faith, or how to show it, because of others’ views. But alongside her parents, she has learned how to nurture her spirit in a community where acceptance is not always guaranteed.
“Transitioning has allowed me to fully explore my faith,” Rebekah told The 19th. “After I transitioned, I found that I was able to find my place in my faith community, find where I belonged. … I got to explore my connection with God and also the people around me in a way that I hadn’t otherwise.”
The Bruesehoffs belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), a mainline Protestant denomination, and attend church in New Jersey. In her new book, “Raising Kids Beyond the Binary,” Jamie Bruesehoff offers a guide for religious families who want to support the trans, gender diverse and gender-nonconforming children in their lives.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2024 09:45PM by anybody.
Don't take my word for it.
Find out for yourself.
I know a trans kid who is now a teenager. I met her when she was four years old. I'm a friend of the family. This isn't "fake," nor would it be possible to "fake" it for over a decade. Would you really go through losing your job, being rejected by your family, go through a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding and move because of death threats, etc. just for social media "likes?"
I don't think so.
When I hear the "they're too young, how could they possibly know" comment, I think of my own childhood. It was pretty much impossible for my parents to force me to do anything. They might be able to talk me into it, but if they were trying to "con" me, I'd figure it out pretty quick. I don't buy the "satanic parents infected with the woke mind virus" trying to "turn" their children argument. It just doesn't make any sense.
When you go round and round with all of the stereotypical arguments, what it boils down to is something like "I don't want to live in a world where I can't just assume a persons sexual provenance by simple inspection." It's very much like the "menace from within" argument against mixed-race people who could pass for "white" or Jews that didn't "look" like Jews.
The least you could do is try to support people so they won't have their bodies physically altered against their will by puberty (probably the opposite of what you were thinking, right?) by allowing them to have medical treatment until they are of legal age so they won't kill themselves...but then they'd be able to "pass" and you wouldn't be able to "tell."
It's hard enough to get kids to get vaccinated or take cough medicine, much less live and act as a "different" gender.
Like I said, don't take my word for it.
##########
https://19thnews.org/2023/10/church-transgender-family-faith-book/
Jamie Bruesehoff grew up in the Lutheran church. Her husband has been a pastor for 20 years. As their daughter, Rebekah, explored her gender expression and grew into her identity as a transgender girl, they made it a point to tell her that God doesn’t make mistakes — she is who she is meant to be.
Rebekah, now 16, has sometimes struggled with her Christian faith, or how to show it, because of others’ views. But alongside her parents, she has learned how to nurture her spirit in a community where acceptance is not always guaranteed.
“Transitioning has allowed me to fully explore my faith,” Rebekah told The 19th. “After I transitioned, I found that I was able to find my place in my faith community, find where I belonged. … I got to explore my connection with God and also the people around me in a way that I hadn’t otherwise.”
The Bruesehoffs belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), a mainline Protestant denomination, and attend church in New Jersey. In her new book, “Raising Kids Beyond the Binary,” Jamie Bruesehoff offers a guide for religious families who want to support the trans, gender diverse and gender-nonconforming children in their lives.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2024 09:45PM by anybody.
These kids have spent more time thinking about it than their parents or anyone else.
Trust them.
Trust them.
I agree.
The kids tell the parents at a young age, the parents either accept what the kids are telling them, or the parents reject the kids and choose to either ignore, dismiss, or pooh-pooh what they hear.
There's all kinds of horror stories out there, I don't have to link them, you can easily find them.
The kids tell the parents at a young age, the parents either accept what the kids are telling them, or the parents reject the kids and choose to either ignore, dismiss, or pooh-pooh what they hear.
There's all kinds of horror stories out there, I don't have to link them, you can easily find them.
But the horror stories are on both sides. Kids who outgrow their gender dysphoria (gender wasn't the problem) and regret their transition to the point of suicide, for example.
The problem is that being transgender is the cool new thing. It shouldn't be. You don't want kids getting permanently mutilated to be popular or special because that need will pass and then what?
I have close gay friends. Do I think gayness should be celebrated by society? No, because then you get pretenders who just want the social benefits of being gay. It seems you can't have it both ways. The military's "Don't ask don't tell" policy was a good policy for the genuinely gay.
As academic as this is, it translates to the experience of, say, introverts and aspies. Maybe many of us here. They resent not being understood by most of society and see it as a curse. But you want to know the bigger curse? Acceptance. Understanding. Because then you become "one of them".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 01:33AM by bradley.
The problem is that being transgender is the cool new thing. It shouldn't be. You don't want kids getting permanently mutilated to be popular or special because that need will pass and then what?
I have close gay friends. Do I think gayness should be celebrated by society? No, because then you get pretenders who just want the social benefits of being gay. It seems you can't have it both ways. The military's "Don't ask don't tell" policy was a good policy for the genuinely gay.
As academic as this is, it translates to the experience of, say, introverts and aspies. Maybe many of us here. They resent not being understood by most of society and see it as a curse. But you want to know the bigger curse? Acceptance. Understanding. Because then you become "one of them".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 01:33AM by bradley.
bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is that being transgender is the cool
> new thing.
Really? I don't think so.
Androgynous models, non-binary people, gender non-conforming musicians, etc. aren't necessarily trans.
Are you sure that the individuals you are talking about were properly identified?
There are very few trans people (less than two per cent). One trans woman I met was in her 70s and was born right after WW2. She knew when she was five years old. They don't "outgrow" this anymore than you can outgrow being left or right handed.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 06:09AM by anybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is that being transgender is the cool
> new thing.
Really? I don't think so.
Androgynous models, non-binary people, gender non-conforming musicians, etc. aren't necessarily trans.
Are you sure that the individuals you are talking about were properly identified?
There are very few trans people (less than two per cent). One trans woman I met was in her 70s and was born right after WW2. She knew when she was five years old. They don't "outgrow" this anymore than you can outgrow being left or right handed.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 06:09AM by anybody.
Kids who outgrow their dysphoria...
No diagnosis is perfect and it's ignorant to think so. Gender dysphoria alone doesnt make one trans. But you should look closer at detransitioning.
WHY do they detransition? Studies support that the great majority of those who received trans care as a child are very satisfied with that care and happy to have received it.
That doesn't mean that trans life is working for them. It can be difficult to get jobs because of bias and bigotry. Without which they can't continue care and their preferred life. Some states prohibit documentation in their new identity which also hampers getting jobs and being treated as your identity.
With the current security steps around travel it can be hard for trans people to travel when their appearances don't match their legal documentation. When the body scan show something different than their presentation.
Our current society has many hurdles to trans people living their life and some detransition for work for lack of money, because of how they're treated.
None of that means they're not trans.
But yes I agree there are people who get a diagnosis of being trans and some treatment as trans for which it is not the ideal treatment. This is a small percentage and they deserve better care and diagnosis. but we don't currently have the right knowledge to get more exact in their diagnosis and treatment. More funding is needed.
No diagnosis is perfect and it's ignorant to think so. Gender dysphoria alone doesnt make one trans. But you should look closer at detransitioning.
WHY do they detransition? Studies support that the great majority of those who received trans care as a child are very satisfied with that care and happy to have received it.
That doesn't mean that trans life is working for them. It can be difficult to get jobs because of bias and bigotry. Without which they can't continue care and their preferred life. Some states prohibit documentation in their new identity which also hampers getting jobs and being treated as your identity.
With the current security steps around travel it can be hard for trans people to travel when their appearances don't match their legal documentation. When the body scan show something different than their presentation.
Our current society has many hurdles to trans people living their life and some detransition for work for lack of money, because of how they're treated.
None of that means they're not trans.
But yes I agree there are people who get a diagnosis of being trans and some treatment as trans for which it is not the ideal treatment. This is a small percentage and they deserve better care and diagnosis. but we don't currently have the right knowledge to get more exact in their diagnosis and treatment. More funding is needed.
> But yes I agree there are people who get a
> diagnosis of being trans and some treatment as
> trans for which it is not the ideal treatment.
> This is a small percentage and they deserve better
> care and diagnosis. but we don't currently have
> the right knowledge to get more exact in their
> diagnosis and treatment.
That's the critical point and it militates in favor of a cautious approach, including in at least some cases waiting a while to avoid making irreversible mistakes.
> diagnosis of being trans and some treatment as
> trans for which it is not the ideal treatment.
> This is a small percentage and they deserve better
> care and diagnosis. but we don't currently have
> the right knowledge to get more exact in their
> diagnosis and treatment.
That's the critical point and it militates in favor of a cautious approach, including in at least some cases waiting a while to avoid making irreversible mistakes.
I rather disagree with your sentence as written and as I understand it.
From my view, this revolves around puberty, which itself is a desirable permanent irreversible effect physically, mentally, socially. It's about managing the kind of puberty that is best for the patient as far as we can understand it.
Surgery is usually left to adulthood. And adults are allowed to make those kinds decisions.
Certainly people transition at all ages. But the controversial interventions focus on puberty.
From my view, this revolves around puberty, which itself is a desirable permanent irreversible effect physically, mentally, socially. It's about managing the kind of puberty that is best for the patient as far as we can understand it.
Surgery is usually left to adulthood. And adults are allowed to make those kinds decisions.
Certainly people transition at all ages. But the controversial interventions focus on puberty.
I don't know enough about this topic to have settled conclusions. It makes me feel better to think that surgical treatments are reserved for adulthood. Are you confident that is the case?
I have less concern, but still concern, about hormonal treatment insofar as that too has lifetime implications. Not as many as surgery, to be sure, but implications there are.
Most basically, though, are you confident that prepubescent adolescents (if that is the right word) are mature enough to make decisions about hormones?
Are you confident that they, rather than their parents or others, are making those decisions?
I have less concern, but still concern, about hormonal treatment insofar as that too has lifetime implications. Not as many as surgery, to be sure, but implications there are.
Most basically, though, are you confident that prepubescent adolescents (if that is the right word) are mature enough to make decisions about hormones?
Are you confident that they, rather than their parents or others, are making those decisions?
This is long but has some good info with sources.
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/
dogbloggernli Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Surgery is usually left to adulthood.
"Usually" doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Jackie Green had his bits removed at 16, Chloe Cole had a double mastectomy at 13, and then there's Keira Bell, Tim Petras, and so many others.
And that was BEFORE that WPATH recommended to lift all age restrictions.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Surgery is usually left to adulthood.
"Usually" doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Jackie Green had his bits removed at 16, Chloe Cole had a double mastectomy at 13, and then there's Keira Bell, Tim Petras, and so many others.
And that was BEFORE that WPATH recommended to lift all age restrictions.
The "cool new thing"? That would be a massively extreme method of claiming coolness.
I don't know if it's "gayness" that's the reason for celebration but rather relief at being genuinely oneself.
What are the "social benefits" of being gay? Seems like there aren't many for some folks in some places.
Who are the "genuinely gay"? And who is the "one of them" that you are in danger of becoming?
Just wondering.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 02:44AM by Nightingale.
I don't know if it's "gayness" that's the reason for celebration but rather relief at being genuinely oneself.
What are the "social benefits" of being gay? Seems like there aren't many for some folks in some places.
Who are the "genuinely gay"? And who is the "one of them" that you are in danger of becoming?
Just wondering.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2024 02:44AM by Nightingale.
The ELCA Lutherans are among the more tolerant, accepting denominations.
I think that the Europeans (the UK, France, etc.) are on the right track by taking a measured approach to medical and mental health care for minors with gender dysphoria. I especially like that they are looking at comorbidities with regard to mental health issues. The longer I stay in the field of education, the more I have come to see that mental health issues in youth seldom occur in isolation -- there is often more than one issue in play.
I think that the Europeans (the UK, France, etc.) are on the right track by taking a measured approach to medical and mental health care for minors with gender dysphoria. I especially like that they are looking at comorbidities with regard to mental health issues. The longer I stay in the field of education, the more I have come to see that mental health issues in youth seldom occur in isolation -- there is often more than one issue in play.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The longer I stay in the field of education, the more I have come to see that mental health issues in youth seldom occur in isolation -- there is often more than one issue in play.
THIS! If they transition and find out their demons don't go away, they end up with two problems instead of one.
And that is why well over 80-90% of kids with gender dysphoria outgrow it with puberty.
Puberty cures body dysmorphia which is often misdiagnosed as gender dysphoria.
-------------------------------------------------------
> The longer I stay in the field of education, the more I have come to see that mental health issues in youth seldom occur in isolation -- there is often more than one issue in play.
THIS! If they transition and find out their demons don't go away, they end up with two problems instead of one.
And that is why well over 80-90% of kids with gender dysphoria outgrow it with puberty.
Puberty cures body dysmorphia which is often misdiagnosed as gender dysphoria.
The make or break question: "When did you decide to become a heterosexual?".
Thank you VW. That made me cry. Worth every second of the hour and a half.
Made me remember how scared I was at that age and what could have been if I had told anyone at all.
That video opens wide the complexity and the gravity. Everything to the how and why the trans movement is being pushed here at an alarming rate when more advanced countries are walking it back and actually making real considerations.
The pressure to go along with the movement or else is formidable.
The trans movement has co-opted the LGB movement which is about accepting yourself. And accepting yourself the way you are is way more important than societal acceptance.
Anybody. You need to watch this. They are too young, too damn young. Not fully formed in any way. I know. You don't. Watch this.
Made me remember how scared I was at that age and what could have been if I had told anyone at all.
That video opens wide the complexity and the gravity. Everything to the how and why the trans movement is being pushed here at an alarming rate when more advanced countries are walking it back and actually making real considerations.
The pressure to go along with the movement or else is formidable.
The trans movement has co-opted the LGB movement which is about accepting yourself. And accepting yourself the way you are is way more important than societal acceptance.
Anybody. You need to watch this. They are too young, too damn young. Not fully formed in any way. I know. You don't. Watch this.
Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you VW. That made me cry. Worth every second of the hour and a half.
Aww. You're Welcome!
> The pressure to go along with the movement or else is formidable.
Yes, it has a 1930s vibe to it!
> Anybody. You need to watch this. They are too young, too damn young. Not fully formed in any way. I know. You don't. Watch this.
Yet they are the ones calling everyone else ignorant...
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you VW. That made me cry. Worth every second of the hour and a half.
Aww. You're Welcome!
> The pressure to go along with the movement or else is formidable.
Yes, it has a 1930s vibe to it!
> Anybody. You need to watch this. They are too young, too damn young. Not fully formed in any way. I know. You don't. Watch this.
Yet they are the ones calling everyone else ignorant...
They said the same thing about interracial marriage, then same-sex marriage, now it's the trans "menace."
All of these negative comments make me very sad.
It tells me that I have a lot of educating to do -- which is my job as an ally.
Most of what I'm reading seems to be based on the (false) premise that there is no such thing as the brain-body mismatch.
What do you think of when you think of a human being?
Just body parts?
Maybe it's because I grew up reading and watching lots of science fiction. The concept of a mind being in another body wasn't news to me.
Another thing that I'm reading in between the lines here besides fear-mongering are phallus worship and women on pedestals. Have you ever though about this? Do you need to look at your parts to figure out who you are or do you just instinctively know? Why value something that you would have no use for and would prevent you from having a normal life? But then it's "Gasp! Oh No! Frankenstein Created Woman!" Teenage girls get implants and nose jobs and guys are getting plastic surgery to get a "G.I. Joe" jawline and you're worried about trans people delaying puberty so they can have a body that aligns with their true gender?
Imagine you were talking about a club foot or cleft palate.
Would you say, "well, it's God's will, you have to live with it, we won't help you" or "you don't have to live with a deformity, you don't have to live in pain, we can help you."
I told you I met a 70+ trans woman. She lived for years with pain which led to failed marriages and alcohol abuse until she stopped trying to make herself into something that she was not to please other people.
None of this is new. It just happens to some people. Being left-handed was thought of as a "sin" or sign of the devil too. The most current theory is hormonal exposure while a foetus is still in the womb. How would you rewire a person's brain? That didn't work out too well for Rosemary Kennedy. The only difference is now parents and doctors recognise this for what it is instead of dismissing people.
So, forget the (fake) stories about kids identifying as cats or wanting amputations to get sympathy from people. Totally different issues.
Trans people are human beings, who, for some reason which isn't fully understood at present, will never have any sexual or social desire to live, behave, or act as assigned gender at birth and have no interest having or performing sexually with their given genitalia. Why would they want to go "back?" Simply because you think they want to?
If you needed a heart, kidney, or liver transplant, would you say "no" even though you knew that you'll have to take anti-rejection drugs?
It's already medically possible to transplant uteri and ovaries. XY women with AIS and/or born without a uterus have already been able to give birth this way, and it won't be long before a trans woman is also able to carry a child as well. Trans women can already nurse infants.
Kids nowadays know their trans peers in school. The 1950s Christine Jorgensen "man one day woman the next" thing is out. And if you think all you have to do is take someone out behind the woodshed and give them a whooping will take care of the "problem," think again. All this has been done to these people and usually results in them either running away and/or being ejected from their homes. That makes things even worse.
Which brings me back to the central issue: acceptance of the brain body mismatch concept. Once you realise it's a real thing, then you too will want to help people be who they truly are instead of forcing them into a life of pain and suffering.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2024 09:36PM by anybody.
All of these negative comments make me very sad.
It tells me that I have a lot of educating to do -- which is my job as an ally.
Most of what I'm reading seems to be based on the (false) premise that there is no such thing as the brain-body mismatch.
What do you think of when you think of a human being?
Just body parts?
Maybe it's because I grew up reading and watching lots of science fiction. The concept of a mind being in another body wasn't news to me.
Another thing that I'm reading in between the lines here besides fear-mongering are phallus worship and women on pedestals. Have you ever though about this? Do you need to look at your parts to figure out who you are or do you just instinctively know? Why value something that you would have no use for and would prevent you from having a normal life? But then it's "Gasp! Oh No! Frankenstein Created Woman!" Teenage girls get implants and nose jobs and guys are getting plastic surgery to get a "G.I. Joe" jawline and you're worried about trans people delaying puberty so they can have a body that aligns with their true gender?
Imagine you were talking about a club foot or cleft palate.
Would you say, "well, it's God's will, you have to live with it, we won't help you" or "you don't have to live with a deformity, you don't have to live in pain, we can help you."
I told you I met a 70+ trans woman. She lived for years with pain which led to failed marriages and alcohol abuse until she stopped trying to make herself into something that she was not to please other people.
None of this is new. It just happens to some people. Being left-handed was thought of as a "sin" or sign of the devil too. The most current theory is hormonal exposure while a foetus is still in the womb. How would you rewire a person's brain? That didn't work out too well for Rosemary Kennedy. The only difference is now parents and doctors recognise this for what it is instead of dismissing people.
So, forget the (fake) stories about kids identifying as cats or wanting amputations to get sympathy from people. Totally different issues.
Trans people are human beings, who, for some reason which isn't fully understood at present, will never have any sexual or social desire to live, behave, or act as assigned gender at birth and have no interest having or performing sexually with their given genitalia. Why would they want to go "back?" Simply because you think they want to?
If you needed a heart, kidney, or liver transplant, would you say "no" even though you knew that you'll have to take anti-rejection drugs?
It's already medically possible to transplant uteri and ovaries. XY women with AIS and/or born without a uterus have already been able to give birth this way, and it won't be long before a trans woman is also able to carry a child as well. Trans women can already nurse infants.
Kids nowadays know their trans peers in school. The 1950s Christine Jorgensen "man one day woman the next" thing is out. And if you think all you have to do is take someone out behind the woodshed and give them a whooping will take care of the "problem," think again. All this has been done to these people and usually results in them either running away and/or being ejected from their homes. That makes things even worse.
Which brings me back to the central issue: acceptance of the brain body mismatch concept. Once you realise it's a real thing, then you too will want to help people be who they truly are instead of forcing them into a life of pain and suffering.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2024 09:36PM by anybody.
Yes, yes. We know the script.
Do you have any response to the substantive questions people have raised?
Do you have any response to the substantive questions people have raised?
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/yale-researchers-international-experts
Yale Researchers, International Experts Release New Paper Rebuking Cass Review
A new study released from the Integrity Project at Yale strongly rebuked inaccuracies in the Cass Review targeting trans care.
On Monday, a team of nine international experts on transgender care drafted a 39-page response paper to the Cass Review. The paper argues that the Cass Review, including the additional York Reviews, has numerous methodological problems in both how it was conducted and how it interprets its data, and that it has been grossly misused by governmental bodies across the world in justifying bans on gender affirming care, especially for minors. The Cass Review is a review of the literature on puberty blockers’ effects on transgender youth conducted by Dr. Hillary Cass, a researcher who has no prior experience working with transgender youth, and who has consulted with Ron DeSantis appointed Florida medical board members in establishing the Review. In addition to the main document outlining clinical recommendations, it also has several systematic reviews conducted by researchers from the University of York. The Review has been used to justify bans on puberty blockers in England, and has been cited in court cases restricting gender affirming care across the United States.
“The Review repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards by resting many conclusions on speculation. Many of its statements and the conduct of the York [systematic reviews] reveal profound misunderstandings of the evidence base and the clinical issues at hand,” says the paper. “The Review also subverts widely accepted processes for development of clinical recommendations and repeats spurious, debunked claims about transgender identity and gender dysphoria. These errors conflict with well-established norms of clinical research and evidence-based healthcare. Further, these errors raise serious concern about the scientific integrity of critical elements of the report’s process and recommendations.”
***
The fourth section argues that the Review misinterprets much of its own evidence, leading to faulty interpretations of how to care for transgender youth. The biggest example they focus on is the inaccuracy of the claim that there is an “exponential” increase in referrals in recent years, something that has been used by opponents to transgender care to sound alarm that care is being rushed without evaluating the evidence, something that the authors emphasize is not accurate. They describe how the increases actually show that not enough transgender youth in the United Kingdom are receiving their care. Section five expands on the fourth by describing what the Review gets wrong in terms of the evidence for gender affirming care. These inaccuracies include problems with how the Review claims that social transition and puberty blockers can be harmful, claims that both desistance and detransitioning rates are incredibly high, and claims that ‘social contagion’ is actually a real phenomena. The authors meticulously detail the problems with each of these ideas, pointing out how the evidence does not support them and has been strongly misrepresented.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2024 09:41PM by anybody.
Yale Researchers, International Experts Release New Paper Rebuking Cass Review
A new study released from the Integrity Project at Yale strongly rebuked inaccuracies in the Cass Review targeting trans care.
On Monday, a team of nine international experts on transgender care drafted a 39-page response paper to the Cass Review. The paper argues that the Cass Review, including the additional York Reviews, has numerous methodological problems in both how it was conducted and how it interprets its data, and that it has been grossly misused by governmental bodies across the world in justifying bans on gender affirming care, especially for minors. The Cass Review is a review of the literature on puberty blockers’ effects on transgender youth conducted by Dr. Hillary Cass, a researcher who has no prior experience working with transgender youth, and who has consulted with Ron DeSantis appointed Florida medical board members in establishing the Review. In addition to the main document outlining clinical recommendations, it also has several systematic reviews conducted by researchers from the University of York. The Review has been used to justify bans on puberty blockers in England, and has been cited in court cases restricting gender affirming care across the United States.
“The Review repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards by resting many conclusions on speculation. Many of its statements and the conduct of the York [systematic reviews] reveal profound misunderstandings of the evidence base and the clinical issues at hand,” says the paper. “The Review also subverts widely accepted processes for development of clinical recommendations and repeats spurious, debunked claims about transgender identity and gender dysphoria. These errors conflict with well-established norms of clinical research and evidence-based healthcare. Further, these errors raise serious concern about the scientific integrity of critical elements of the report’s process and recommendations.”
***
The fourth section argues that the Review misinterprets much of its own evidence, leading to faulty interpretations of how to care for transgender youth. The biggest example they focus on is the inaccuracy of the claim that there is an “exponential” increase in referrals in recent years, something that has been used by opponents to transgender care to sound alarm that care is being rushed without evaluating the evidence, something that the authors emphasize is not accurate. They describe how the increases actually show that not enough transgender youth in the United Kingdom are receiving their care. Section five expands on the fourth by describing what the Review gets wrong in terms of the evidence for gender affirming care. These inaccuracies include problems with how the Review claims that social transition and puberty blockers can be harmful, claims that both desistance and detransitioning rates are incredibly high, and claims that ‘social contagion’ is actually a real phenomena. The authors meticulously detail the problems with each of these ideas, pointing out how the evidence does not support them and has been strongly misrepresented.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2024 09:41PM by anybody.
No one in this thread or, I believe, on this board has ever cited the Cass Review. Am I wrong on that?
Because if I am not, then what you have done is to present a lousy piece of work--by a DeSantis ally, which pretty much discredits it from the start--as a straw man rather than addressing the points others have brought up.
Are VW and D&D wrong?
Because if I am not, then what you have done is to present a lousy piece of work--by a DeSantis ally, which pretty much discredits it from the start--as a straw man rather than addressing the points others have brought up.
Are VW and D&D wrong?
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one in this thread or, I believe, on this board has ever cited the Cass Review. Am I wrong on that?
I have, and I mentioned that it wasn't even the first such review, just the first one in an English-speaking country. Norway, Sweden and Finland came first. Belgium and the Netherlands shortly after.
You heard that right, anybody: Belgium and the Netherlands. The so-called "Dutch Protocol" has been shelved in BOTH Dutch-speaking countries.
> Are VW and D&D wrong?
I expect nothing but ad hominems in reply. It's all they ever come up with.
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one in this thread or, I believe, on this board has ever cited the Cass Review. Am I wrong on that?
I have, and I mentioned that it wasn't even the first such review, just the first one in an English-speaking country. Norway, Sweden and Finland came first. Belgium and the Netherlands shortly after.
You heard that right, anybody: Belgium and the Netherlands. The so-called "Dutch Protocol" has been shelved in BOTH Dutch-speaking countries.
> Are VW and D&D wrong?
I expect nothing but ad hominems in reply. It's all they ever come up with.
Also, anybody, your analogies are way off:
The people who fought for interracial marriage never tried to stop white people from marrying each other.
The people who fought for gay marriage never tried to stop straight people from marrying each other.
Today's so-called 'trans allies' ARE actively trying to take the rights of women and gays away.
The Lesbian organizations that helped found London's gay pride 50 years ago have been banned from their own pride because they advocate for Keep Prisons Single-S€x. Sarah Jane Barker, a violent murderer who spent more years in a UK prison than anyone alive, was invited instead, and ended his speech with "If you see a TERF, p0nch them in the face" to great applause.
Lesbian and other women at #LetWomenSpeak events are routinely attacked by angy mobs of far-right, balaclava-wearing men and other "trans rights allies" led by Alan Barker, née Sarah Jane Barker.
Lesbian groups cannot even hold informal meetings in restaurant backrooms anymore in much of the UK, Australia and NZ, because TRA groups harass the owners to 'discontinue' giving a platform to 'hate groups'.
TRA advocacy group Mermaids, one of dozens of UK organization solely for trans people, went to court to have the LGB Alliance's charity status removed. LGB Alliance UK is the only LGB organization that doesn't prioritise trans people and according to Mermaids, they have 'no right to exist.' Mermaids also claims that lesbian women who don't want to date trans women have a "genital preference they need to unlearn."
It's back to the 1970s: "Oh, lesbian? Ha, you just need to find the right kok, lass!"
THIS is why an increasing number of gays and lesbians want to divorce the LGB from all the other letters. And with all respect to our elders, but most of us are well under 40.
The people who fought for interracial marriage never tried to stop white people from marrying each other.
The people who fought for gay marriage never tried to stop straight people from marrying each other.
Today's so-called 'trans allies' ARE actively trying to take the rights of women and gays away.
The Lesbian organizations that helped found London's gay pride 50 years ago have been banned from their own pride because they advocate for Keep Prisons Single-S€x. Sarah Jane Barker, a violent murderer who spent more years in a UK prison than anyone alive, was invited instead, and ended his speech with "If you see a TERF, p0nch them in the face" to great applause.
Lesbian and other women at #LetWomenSpeak events are routinely attacked by angy mobs of far-right, balaclava-wearing men and other "trans rights allies" led by Alan Barker, née Sarah Jane Barker.
Lesbian groups cannot even hold informal meetings in restaurant backrooms anymore in much of the UK, Australia and NZ, because TRA groups harass the owners to 'discontinue' giving a platform to 'hate groups'.
TRA advocacy group Mermaids, one of dozens of UK organization solely for trans people, went to court to have the LGB Alliance's charity status removed. LGB Alliance UK is the only LGB organization that doesn't prioritise trans people and according to Mermaids, they have 'no right to exist.' Mermaids also claims that lesbian women who don't want to date trans women have a "genital preference they need to unlearn."
It's back to the 1970s: "Oh, lesbian? Ha, you just need to find the right kok, lass!"
THIS is why an increasing number of gays and lesbians want to divorce the LGB from all the other letters. And with all respect to our elders, but most of us are well under 40.
Besides any ad hominems I expect the barrage of anecdotal "evidence" will continue post after post as well as slanted articles not properly vetted being submittted.
For instance," I know a trans kid who is now a teenager. I met her when she was four years old. I'm a friend of the family. This isn't "fake," nor would it be possible to "fake" it for over a decade. Would you really go through losing your job, being rejected by your family, go through a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding and move because of death threats, etc. just for social media "likes?"
"I don't think so."
I can see a a dozen explanations for this second hand information. Clearly one parent had a different point of view and thus the divorce. It was interesting in the video that parents could face charges from Child Protective Services for not going along with the "get your hormones the same day with no further careful explorations!" system now in place.
Dangerous tunnel vision. I was heart broken for those kids in the video.
For instance," I know a trans kid who is now a teenager. I met her when she was four years old. I'm a friend of the family. This isn't "fake," nor would it be possible to "fake" it for over a decade. Would you really go through losing your job, being rejected by your family, go through a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding and move because of death threats, etc. just for social media "likes?"
"I don't think so."
I can see a a dozen explanations for this second hand information. Clearly one parent had a different point of view and thus the divorce. It was interesting in the video that parents could face charges from Child Protective Services for not going along with the "get your hormones the same day with no further careful explorations!" system now in place.
Dangerous tunnel vision. I was heart broken for those kids in the video.
Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you really go through losing your job, a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding because of death threats, etc.just for social media "likes?"
> I can see a a dozen explanations for this second hand information. Clearly one parent had a different point of view and thus the divorce. Interesting that parents could face charges from CPS for not going along.
You remind me of James and Jude Younger from Texas. The father of these young twin brothers is a far-right, archconservative evangelical christian while their mother went to the other extreme and became convinced that James is really a girl who should be called Luna and took the children to California, a "sanctuary state" for vegan cats, I mean trans kids.
As much as I despise the political and religious beliefs of their father, I do think they should be protected from their mother. Expect the Oscar-winning movie by 2035...
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you really go through losing your job, a bitter divorce and child custody battle, kids being thrown out of school, having to go into hiding because of death threats, etc.just for social media "likes?"
> I can see a a dozen explanations for this second hand information. Clearly one parent had a different point of view and thus the divorce. Interesting that parents could face charges from CPS for not going along.
You remind me of James and Jude Younger from Texas. The father of these young twin brothers is a far-right, archconservative evangelical christian while their mother went to the other extreme and became convinced that James is really a girl who should be called Luna and took the children to California, a "sanctuary state" for vegan cats, I mean trans kids.
As much as I despise the political and religious beliefs of their father, I do think they should be protected from their mother. Expect the Oscar-winning movie by 2035...
https://www.cpr.org/2024/01/03/families-with-trans-choose-colorado-as-other-states-ban-gender-affirming-care/
Roughly 1.4 percent of the U.S. population between 13 and 17 identifies as trans, according to a report from the Williams Institute, which is based on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention surveys.
In 2023, statehouses across the United States saw nearly 500 bills introduced that targeted lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people, a record amount according to a tally from the American Civil Liberties Union. At least 75 have since been signed into law, with a majority chipping away at access to gender transition-related care for minors, bathroom choice in public schools and the ability to change gender markers on official documents, like birth certificates.
The swell has fueled interest among LGBTQ Americans in moving to states with more protections in health care and public education. According to a 2023 survey of transgender adults by Data for Progress, a progressive think tank, 41 percent of young trans adults from ages 18 to 24 have considered moving away from states with anti-trans laws.
Data on families with trans children are scarce. The Census Bureau doesn’t track migration by gender identity, according to a spokeswoman.
Families and advocates interviewed by CPR News said parents who want to move are resorting to online research to determine which states have LGBTQ-friendly laws in place. Many can’t leave due to the high costs and logistical hurdles of moving long distances from home.
Charles, a 37 year old non-profit employee, said she became an “armchair” researcher following the 2022 election, which led her to learn about legal protections recently passed in Colorado. She read that in April, Gov. Jared Polis had signed a bill into law that protects providers and patients from being targeted for prosecution by states that have banned gender-affirming care.
Charles proposed moving to Colorado to her family over dinner the night after election day.
“What do you think we should do about this dilemma that we’re in?” Charles asked Hadley.
“We still have a lot of family here,” Hadley remembers saying. “I have to really think about it.”
The two Googled gender-affirming care in Colorado, and found the website for the TRUE Center for Gender Diversity at Children’s Hospital Colorado in Aurora. That night, they put Hadley’s name on the waitlist for an appointment.
Charles started searching for work, and in August 2023, the mother and daughter moved into a small rental house in Denver.
“We were in a fight or flight situation,” Hadley said. “And we chose flight.”
Roughly 1.4 percent of the U.S. population between 13 and 17 identifies as trans, according to a report from the Williams Institute, which is based on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention surveys.
In 2023, statehouses across the United States saw nearly 500 bills introduced that targeted lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people, a record amount according to a tally from the American Civil Liberties Union. At least 75 have since been signed into law, with a majority chipping away at access to gender transition-related care for minors, bathroom choice in public schools and the ability to change gender markers on official documents, like birth certificates.
The swell has fueled interest among LGBTQ Americans in moving to states with more protections in health care and public education. According to a 2023 survey of transgender adults by Data for Progress, a progressive think tank, 41 percent of young trans adults from ages 18 to 24 have considered moving away from states with anti-trans laws.
Data on families with trans children are scarce. The Census Bureau doesn’t track migration by gender identity, according to a spokeswoman.
Families and advocates interviewed by CPR News said parents who want to move are resorting to online research to determine which states have LGBTQ-friendly laws in place. Many can’t leave due to the high costs and logistical hurdles of moving long distances from home.
Charles, a 37 year old non-profit employee, said she became an “armchair” researcher following the 2022 election, which led her to learn about legal protections recently passed in Colorado. She read that in April, Gov. Jared Polis had signed a bill into law that protects providers and patients from being targeted for prosecution by states that have banned gender-affirming care.
Charles proposed moving to Colorado to her family over dinner the night after election day.
“What do you think we should do about this dilemma that we’re in?” Charles asked Hadley.
“We still have a lot of family here,” Hadley remembers saying. “I have to really think about it.”
The two Googled gender-affirming care in Colorado, and found the website for the TRUE Center for Gender Diversity at Children’s Hospital Colorado in Aurora. That night, they put Hadley’s name on the waitlist for an appointment.
Charles started searching for work, and in August 2023, the mother and daughter moved into a small rental house in Denver.
“We were in a fight or flight situation,” Hadley said. “And we chose flight.”
I knew two trans college classmates -- a trans guy and trans girl.
They died together by suicide on campus, and I went to their joint funeral.
Trans people are treated like trash, and until very recently, few had any access to medical care or treatment. I don't know this by "second hand" information. I know it because I've seen it.
So, you can throw all the far-right, religious fundie driven conspiracy fear-mongering at me that you want. It won't work on me. Sorry.
I have never heard of a trans person or their allies trying to "erase" gay people, "turn" gay kids trans, or any other similar nonsense. I've actually heard the opposite -- especially from religious fundamentalist parents -- many of whom state quite openly they would prefer having a gay or dead child rather than a "disgusting" trans child.
It's just like the old "Jews sacrificing children" c**p. It's made up bunk.
We may soon find ourselves living in a religious fundamentalist state, and if you think throwing trans people under the bus will "protect" you, think again. They will come for you too.
Who do you think are funding these groups?
###########
https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/14/lgb-alliance-transphobia-charity-history/
A tribunal is currently hearing a case brought by the trans youth charity Mermaids arguing that the LGB Alliance should not be a registered charity.
But what is the history of the infamous anti-trans organisation?
How it started
In September 2019, a group of 22 people, including Stonewall co-founder Simon Fanshawe and journalist Julie Bindel, published a letter in the Sunday Times which accused trans-inclusive LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall of undermining “women’s sex-based rights and protections”.
The letter’s signatories said that because of Stonewall’s policies of trans inclusion, “there must surely now be an opening for a new organisation committed both to freedom of speech and to fact instead of fantasy”. One month later, LGB Alliance was born.
***
But what is the history of the infamous anti-trans organisation?
In September 2019, a group of 22 people, including Stonewall co-founder Simon Fanshawe and journalist Julie Bindel, published a letter in the Sunday Times which accused trans-inclusive LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall of undermining “women’s sex-based rights and protections”.
The letter’s signatories said that because of Stonewall’s policies of trans inclusion, “there must surely now be an opening for a new organisation committed both to freedom of speech and to fact instead of fantasy”. One month later, LGB Alliance was born.
##########
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/10/anti-trans-organisations-hate-groups-southern-poverty-law-center/
Two anti-trans movements have been classified as “hate groups” by a civil rights not-for-profit organisation.
The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) classified “gender-critical” groups Genspect and the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) as anti-LGBTQ+ “hate groups”, on Tuesday (4 June).
The two organisations, both of which oppose gender-affirming healthcare for trans people, were labelled as “key hubs of anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience” by the SPLC.
SPLC defines a hate group as “an organisation or collection of individuals that – based on its official statements or principles, the statements of its leaders, or its activities – has beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.”
It also notes that an organisation “does not need to have engaged in criminal conduct” to be classified as hate groups and that it does not list individuals as hate groups, only organisations.
In an article, the SPLC said organisations such as SEGM and Genspect are used to “manufacture debate over the efficacy of gender-affirming care around the world.”
SEGM specifically has taken out a “global media and public policy blitz” in an attempt to “advocate against gender-affirming care,” the charity said.
“The group’s endeavours are helped largely by its scientific façade, a general lack of information about its political activities and its members’ affiliations with the anti-LGBTQ+ far right,” the article says. “SEGM has helped foster resistance to the idea that adolescents can be capable of exerting agency over their own care.”
SEGM primarily consists of medical professionals and academics who oppose trans people’s right to gender-affirming care such as hormones, puberty blockers and surgery.
Founded in 2020, it describes itself as an “evidence-informed” not-for-profit organisation that promotes “healthcare for children, adolescents and young adults with gender dysphoria”.
They died together by suicide on campus, and I went to their joint funeral.
Trans people are treated like trash, and until very recently, few had any access to medical care or treatment. I don't know this by "second hand" information. I know it because I've seen it.
So, you can throw all the far-right, religious fundie driven conspiracy fear-mongering at me that you want. It won't work on me. Sorry.
I have never heard of a trans person or their allies trying to "erase" gay people, "turn" gay kids trans, or any other similar nonsense. I've actually heard the opposite -- especially from religious fundamentalist parents -- many of whom state quite openly they would prefer having a gay or dead child rather than a "disgusting" trans child.
It's just like the old "Jews sacrificing children" c**p. It's made up bunk.
We may soon find ourselves living in a religious fundamentalist state, and if you think throwing trans people under the bus will "protect" you, think again. They will come for you too.
Who do you think are funding these groups?
###########
https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/14/lgb-alliance-transphobia-charity-history/
A tribunal is currently hearing a case brought by the trans youth charity Mermaids arguing that the LGB Alliance should not be a registered charity.
But what is the history of the infamous anti-trans organisation?
How it started
In September 2019, a group of 22 people, including Stonewall co-founder Simon Fanshawe and journalist Julie Bindel, published a letter in the Sunday Times which accused trans-inclusive LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall of undermining “women’s sex-based rights and protections”.
The letter’s signatories said that because of Stonewall’s policies of trans inclusion, “there must surely now be an opening for a new organisation committed both to freedom of speech and to fact instead of fantasy”. One month later, LGB Alliance was born.
***
But what is the history of the infamous anti-trans organisation?
In September 2019, a group of 22 people, including Stonewall co-founder Simon Fanshawe and journalist Julie Bindel, published a letter in the Sunday Times which accused trans-inclusive LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall of undermining “women’s sex-based rights and protections”.
The letter’s signatories said that because of Stonewall’s policies of trans inclusion, “there must surely now be an opening for a new organisation committed both to freedom of speech and to fact instead of fantasy”. One month later, LGB Alliance was born.
##########
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/10/anti-trans-organisations-hate-groups-southern-poverty-law-center/
Two anti-trans movements have been classified as “hate groups” by a civil rights not-for-profit organisation.
The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) classified “gender-critical” groups Genspect and the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) as anti-LGBTQ+ “hate groups”, on Tuesday (4 June).
The two organisations, both of which oppose gender-affirming healthcare for trans people, were labelled as “key hubs of anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience” by the SPLC.
SPLC defines a hate group as “an organisation or collection of individuals that – based on its official statements or principles, the statements of its leaders, or its activities – has beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics.”
It also notes that an organisation “does not need to have engaged in criminal conduct” to be classified as hate groups and that it does not list individuals as hate groups, only organisations.
In an article, the SPLC said organisations such as SEGM and Genspect are used to “manufacture debate over the efficacy of gender-affirming care around the world.”
SEGM specifically has taken out a “global media and public policy blitz” in an attempt to “advocate against gender-affirming care,” the charity said.
“The group’s endeavours are helped largely by its scientific façade, a general lack of information about its political activities and its members’ affiliations with the anti-LGBTQ+ far right,” the article says. “SEGM has helped foster resistance to the idea that adolescents can be capable of exerting agency over their own care.”
SEGM primarily consists of medical professionals and academics who oppose trans people’s right to gender-affirming care such as hormones, puberty blockers and surgery.
Founded in 2020, it describes itself as an “evidence-informed” not-for-profit organisation that promotes “healthcare for children, adolescents and young adults with gender dysphoria”.
"So, you can throw all the far-right, religious fundie driven conspiracy fear-mongering at me that you want. It won't work on me. Sorry."
Uh. We are very aware for along time now that nothing will work on you. Me? I just like to do anything I can for anyone else to see all the facets, all the complications and that all is not as cut and dried as you paint it.
Nobody is attacking anyone here but you. We are painting the details into the mural. No one here I can see is against anyone's rights. We are pro-information. We care about the kids.
Your movement needs so desperately to see hate that isn't there.
Did you watch the video VW posted? Are you really going to say those de-transitioners are liars? Are you going to say those doctors and therapists etc. were lying? Because I saw no agenda coming from anyone. I saw no one trying to take away rights. I saw people wanting to find the best care for everyone they could, which includes not being so damn sure you are right as you think you are.
Uh. We are very aware for along time now that nothing will work on you. Me? I just like to do anything I can for anyone else to see all the facets, all the complications and that all is not as cut and dried as you paint it.
Nobody is attacking anyone here but you. We are painting the details into the mural. No one here I can see is against anyone's rights. We are pro-information. We care about the kids.
Your movement needs so desperately to see hate that isn't there.
Did you watch the video VW posted? Are you really going to say those de-transitioners are liars? Are you going to say those doctors and therapists etc. were lying? Because I saw no agenda coming from anyone. I saw no one trying to take away rights. I saw people wanting to find the best care for everyone they could, which includes not being so damn sure you are right as you think you are.
If someone is telling gender non-conforming kids they are trans, that's not a correct diagnosis.
It's not about clothes, it's about psyche and behaviour, and it has to be persistently stated over many months if not years.
##########
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trans-survey-gender-affirming-care-rcna138452
A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment, much less one that has been the subject of so much political division over the years.
***
One possible reason for such a high satisfaction rate is that gender affirming care, especially surgical procedures, is still somewhat difficult to obtain for the average trans person. Insurance company practices and policies about these procedures can be difficult to decipher, there aren’t that many surgeons practicing in this area to begin with, and trans people still need to shell out hundreds of dollars to get therapists and a psychologist to sign off on the procedures.
Additionally, societal transphobia presents its own blockade to transitioning. Trans people are routinely trapped in the closet by the threat of familial or spousal abandonment if they decide to come out and seek transition care.
All of these factors add up to only the most dedicated and committed trans people pursuing transition to begin with. Generally, you don’t pursue a gender transition unless you really mean it and want it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2024 02:15PM by anybody.
It's not about clothes, it's about psyche and behaviour, and it has to be persistently stated over many months if not years.
##########
https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trans-survey-gender-affirming-care-rcna138452
A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment, much less one that has been the subject of so much political division over the years.
***
One possible reason for such a high satisfaction rate is that gender affirming care, especially surgical procedures, is still somewhat difficult to obtain for the average trans person. Insurance company practices and policies about these procedures can be difficult to decipher, there aren’t that many surgeons practicing in this area to begin with, and trans people still need to shell out hundreds of dollars to get therapists and a psychologist to sign off on the procedures.
Additionally, societal transphobia presents its own blockade to transitioning. Trans people are routinely trapped in the closet by the threat of familial or spousal abandonment if they decide to come out and seek transition care.
All of these factors add up to only the most dedicated and committed trans people pursuing transition to begin with. Generally, you don’t pursue a gender transition unless you really mean it and want it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2024 02:15PM by anybody.
anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone is telling gender non-conforming kids they are trans, that's not a correct diagnosis.
Yes, that is precisely our point.
> A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment.
Oh look, you forgot the next sentence, "Even though the survey respondents were self selected" which is not unimportant. Reminiscent of the long-term Dutch study that TRAs always quote as saying that only 1% of transitioners regret their transition, omitting the fact that 31% of the initial cohort was "lost to follow-up"
And exactly how long after transition was this survey done? We all know there is a 'honeymoon period' of 'gender euphoria' that wears off after a few years. Considering this survey was 'open to binary and nonbinary transgender people aged 16 and older' one could even wonder if all of them had finished their transition in the first place.
Questions, questions.
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone is telling gender non-conforming kids they are trans, that's not a correct diagnosis.
Yes, that is precisely our point.
> A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment.
Oh look, you forgot the next sentence, "Even though the survey respondents were self selected" which is not unimportant. Reminiscent of the long-term Dutch study that TRAs always quote as saying that only 1% of transitioners regret their transition, omitting the fact that 31% of the initial cohort was "lost to follow-up"
And exactly how long after transition was this survey done? We all know there is a 'honeymoon period' of 'gender euphoria' that wears off after a few years. Considering this survey was 'open to binary and nonbinary transgender people aged 16 and older' one could even wonder if all of them had finished their transition in the first place.
Questions, questions.
anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone is telling gender non-conforming kids
> they are trans, that's not a correct diagnosis.
Yes, that is precisely our point.
> A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment.
Oh look, you forgot the next sentence, "Even though the survey respondents were self selected" which is not unimportant. Reminiscent of the long-term Dutch study that TRAs always quote as saying that only 1% of transitioners regret their transition, omitting the fact that 31% of the initial cohort was "lost to follow-up"
And exactly how long after transition was this survey done? We all know there is a 'honeymoon period' of 'gender euphoria' that wears off after a few years. Considering this survey was 'open to binary and nonbinary transgender people aged 16 and older' one could even wonder if all of them had finished their transition in the first place.
Questions, questions.
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone is telling gender non-conforming kids
> they are trans, that's not a correct diagnosis.
Yes, that is precisely our point.
> A survey of over 90,000 trans people in 2022 found 94% reported being “very satisfied” with their transition-related medical care — a remarkable result, experts say, given that such a high satisfaction rate is rare for any medical treatment.
Oh look, you forgot the next sentence, "Even though the survey respondents were self selected" which is not unimportant. Reminiscent of the long-term Dutch study that TRAs always quote as saying that only 1% of transitioners regret their transition, omitting the fact that 31% of the initial cohort was "lost to follow-up"
And exactly how long after transition was this survey done? We all know there is a 'honeymoon period' of 'gender euphoria' that wears off after a few years. Considering this survey was 'open to binary and nonbinary transgender people aged 16 and older' one could even wonder if all of them had finished their transition in the first place.
Questions, questions.
A small child cannot:
* work
* vote
* have criminal responsibility
* give sexual consent
* set up their own bank account
* live by themselves
* work
* vote
* have criminal responsibility
* give sexual consent
* set up their own bank account
* live by themselves
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2024/06/24/trans-kids-gender-affirming-care-parents-rights/74090131007/
Sean P. Madden
Opinion contributor
I'm the parent of a trans daughter. There's nothing conservative about blocking her care.
Politicians should stop trying to impose personal beliefs as statewide mandates that harm children and interfere with the private, individualized medical decisions of families.
I write as the proud father of a courageous, kind and empathetic 24-year-old transgender daughter to provide some insight into our family’s experience with gender-affirming care and hopefully to correct some of the most egregious misinformation about it.
***
One of the most common misconceptions about being transgender is that it reflects a choice, closely related to the false narrative of “social contagion” whereby children allegedly are influenced to identify as transgender by peer pressure, especially through social media.
However, when we consulted experts in transgender care, we came to understand what a federal court at the time found after hearing the evidence: “that being transgender is not a 'preference,' that being transgender has a medically-recognized biological basis, and that it is an innate and non-alterable status.”
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2024 02:28PM by anybody.
Sean P. Madden
Opinion contributor
I'm the parent of a trans daughter. There's nothing conservative about blocking her care.
Politicians should stop trying to impose personal beliefs as statewide mandates that harm children and interfere with the private, individualized medical decisions of families.
I write as the proud father of a courageous, kind and empathetic 24-year-old transgender daughter to provide some insight into our family’s experience with gender-affirming care and hopefully to correct some of the most egregious misinformation about it.
***
One of the most common misconceptions about being transgender is that it reflects a choice, closely related to the false narrative of “social contagion” whereby children allegedly are influenced to identify as transgender by peer pressure, especially through social media.
However, when we consulted experts in transgender care, we came to understand what a federal court at the time found after hearing the evidence: “that being transgender is not a 'preference,' that being transgender has a medically-recognized biological basis, and that it is an innate and non-alterable status.”
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2024 02:28PM by anybody.
Great points AAnon. And yet, they are now allowed to make the most staggeringly important irreversible decision of their lives at those tender ages. Scientists say the brain is not even fully developed until into your twenties.
All with one-stop shopping. One visit and you walk out with a hormone prescription. Reckless.
All with one-stop shopping. One visit and you walk out with a hormone prescription. Reckless.
anybody, is it your position that errors are never made? No kids are confused, no kids are pressured into things by well-meaning parents who ultimately prove mistaken, nothing has yet to be discovered by scientists and psychologists?
That's really the key. For my part I am sure that there are kids who sincerely and properly believe they are in the wrong bodies; in fact, I once provided a link to you showing scientific evidence that on average trans people have certain brain structures of the gender to which they want to transition although I'm pretty confident that you never looked at it. So I'm not arguing that there are no trans people.
Are you willing conversely to acknowledge that mistakes are made? That some trans people live to regret their transitions? If so, what percentage of transitions would need to be erroneous for you to concede that some limiting procedures are appropriate for children?
That's really the key. For my part I am sure that there are kids who sincerely and properly believe they are in the wrong bodies; in fact, I once provided a link to you showing scientific evidence that on average trans people have certain brain structures of the gender to which they want to transition although I'm pretty confident that you never looked at it. So I'm not arguing that there are no trans people.
Are you willing conversely to acknowledge that mistakes are made? That some trans people live to regret their transitions? If so, what percentage of transitions would need to be erroneous for you to concede that some limiting procedures are appropriate for children?
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anybody, is it your position that errors are never
> made? No kids are confused, no kids are pressured
> into things by well-meaning parents who ultimately
> prove mistaken, nothing has yet to be discovered
> by scientists and psychologists?
No, I'm not saying mistakes are never made.
What I am saying -- and this is based on both my reading of what doctors and scientists are saying and also personal interactions with trans people -- is that you can't "force" a person to mentally be anything but their innate gender. Innate gender is innate to the individual and that can't be changed. The body can be cosmetically changed, but not the mind.
This was tried in an infamous case in Canada back in the 1960s where a young boy's sex organs were converted to female after a botched circumcision (that's another debate, not going to get into that now), and the doctor thought all you would have to do was to tell the child that he was a girl, etc. It didn't work.
##########
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-13-me-reimer13-story.html
David Reimer, the Canadian man raised as a girl for most of the first 14 years of his life in a highly touted medical experiment that seemed to resolve the debate over the cultural and biological determinants of gender, has died at 38. He committed suicide May 4 in his hometown of Winnipeg, Canada.
At 8 months of age, Reimer became the unwitting subject of “sex reassignment,” a treatment method embraced by his parents after his penis was all but obliterated during a botched circumcision. The American doctor whose advice they sought recommended that their son be castrated, given hormone treatments and raised as a girl. The physician, Dr. John Money, supervised the case for several years and eventually wrote a paper declaring the success of the gender conversion.
Known as the “John/Joan” case, it was widely publicized and gave credence to arguments presented in the 1970s by feminists and others that humans are sexually neutral at birth and that sex roles are largely the product of social conditioning.
But, in fact, the gender conversion was far from successful. Money’s experiment was a disaster for Reimer that created psychological scars he ultimately could not overcome.
##########
The girl, now a teenager, that I mentioned at the beginning of this began telling her mother that she was really a girl when she was like three years old, and kept insisting that boy parts didn't belong on her. She refused to wear boy's clothing, would drape a towel over her head as if she had long hair, and so on. This went on for months until the mother contacted doctors and learned that she had a trans daughter and not a son. The mother allowed the girl to transition at age five. Things changed almost overnight. No more acting out, no more depression or constant crying.
I read a news story today about a gay non-binary comedian who is currently doing a show in NYC about Mary Todd Lincoln. This person is gender non-conforming and clearly not trans.
The video that others were talking about here and other similar things are almost carbon copies of stuff I see from far right or EV fundie news outlets like the Daily Signal, News Nation, etc. There's no "conspiracy" to convert straight or gay kids to make them trans. Go back and look at 1980s album covers. Lots of gender non-conformity, but few, if any, of those performers were actually trans.
The whole point here is that nobody to my knowledge is medicating kids without a long period of evaluation, and if that happens, it's clearly wrong. De-transition rates are also low, and must be examined in the face of family/societal rejection, homelessness and joblessness, etc. Things are even worse for trans people of colour -- who face extreme rejection and all too often wind up selling their bodies to survive. Until very recently, the average life expectancy for a trans woman of colour who was rejected by their parents as a teen and forced to live on the street was approximately thirty to thirty-five years. That's about 15 or so years of living on the street, and most don't make it that long, especially in the South.
Few people are trans in the first place, and you can't make someone into something they are not. Why not help people instead of condemning them to a life of rejection, pain, and suffering? That's what I'm saying.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2024 11:11AM by anybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
> anybody, is it your position that errors are never
> made? No kids are confused, no kids are pressured
> into things by well-meaning parents who ultimately
> prove mistaken, nothing has yet to be discovered
> by scientists and psychologists?
No, I'm not saying mistakes are never made.
What I am saying -- and this is based on both my reading of what doctors and scientists are saying and also personal interactions with trans people -- is that you can't "force" a person to mentally be anything but their innate gender. Innate gender is innate to the individual and that can't be changed. The body can be cosmetically changed, but not the mind.
This was tried in an infamous case in Canada back in the 1960s where a young boy's sex organs were converted to female after a botched circumcision (that's another debate, not going to get into that now), and the doctor thought all you would have to do was to tell the child that he was a girl, etc. It didn't work.
##########
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-13-me-reimer13-story.html
David Reimer, the Canadian man raised as a girl for most of the first 14 years of his life in a highly touted medical experiment that seemed to resolve the debate over the cultural and biological determinants of gender, has died at 38. He committed suicide May 4 in his hometown of Winnipeg, Canada.
At 8 months of age, Reimer became the unwitting subject of “sex reassignment,” a treatment method embraced by his parents after his penis was all but obliterated during a botched circumcision. The American doctor whose advice they sought recommended that their son be castrated, given hormone treatments and raised as a girl. The physician, Dr. John Money, supervised the case for several years and eventually wrote a paper declaring the success of the gender conversion.
Known as the “John/Joan” case, it was widely publicized and gave credence to arguments presented in the 1970s by feminists and others that humans are sexually neutral at birth and that sex roles are largely the product of social conditioning.
But, in fact, the gender conversion was far from successful. Money’s experiment was a disaster for Reimer that created psychological scars he ultimately could not overcome.
##########
The girl, now a teenager, that I mentioned at the beginning of this began telling her mother that she was really a girl when she was like three years old, and kept insisting that boy parts didn't belong on her. She refused to wear boy's clothing, would drape a towel over her head as if she had long hair, and so on. This went on for months until the mother contacted doctors and learned that she had a trans daughter and not a son. The mother allowed the girl to transition at age five. Things changed almost overnight. No more acting out, no more depression or constant crying.
I read a news story today about a gay non-binary comedian who is currently doing a show in NYC about Mary Todd Lincoln. This person is gender non-conforming and clearly not trans.
The video that others were talking about here and other similar things are almost carbon copies of stuff I see from far right or EV fundie news outlets like the Daily Signal, News Nation, etc. There's no "conspiracy" to convert straight or gay kids to make them trans. Go back and look at 1980s album covers. Lots of gender non-conformity, but few, if any, of those performers were actually trans.
The whole point here is that nobody to my knowledge is medicating kids without a long period of evaluation, and if that happens, it's clearly wrong. De-transition rates are also low, and must be examined in the face of family/societal rejection, homelessness and joblessness, etc. Things are even worse for trans people of colour -- who face extreme rejection and all too often wind up selling their bodies to survive. Until very recently, the average life expectancy for a trans woman of colour who was rejected by their parents as a teen and forced to live on the street was approximately thirty to thirty-five years. That's about 15 or so years of living on the street, and most don't make it that long, especially in the South.
Few people are trans in the first place, and you can't make someone into something they are not. Why not help people instead of condemning them to a life of rejection, pain, and suffering? That's what I'm saying.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2024 11:11AM by anybody.
Thank you for your answer. My replies follow.
---------------------
> No, I'm not saying mistakes are never made.
It then appears from your comments below that you think the mistakes are always made by your opponents and not by people on your side of the issue.
------------------
> What I am saying -- and this is based on both my
> reading of what doctors and scientists are saying
> and also personal interactions with trans people
> -- is that you can't "force" a person to mentally
> be anything but their innate gender.
Sure you can. The number of gay people who thought they were straight until late in life is significant. Societal and family pressure have immense influence over other people and especially over children and teenagers.
----------------
> Innate gender
> is innate to the individual and that can't be
> changed.
That is naive. There are people whose gender identities have changed multiple times.
Are there individuals who are sure about their gender from early childhood? Clearly yes. We've all seen them; we've all embraced them. But sexuality, like everything else in humans, is defined by a bell curve. Some are on the extremes, some sit right in the middle. Transsexuality is neither more nor less definite than any other gender identity.
--------------
> This was tried in an infamous case in Canada back
> in the 1960s where a young boy's sex organs were
> converted to female after a botched circumcision
> (that's another debate, not going to get into that
> now), and the doctor thought all you would have to
> do was to tell the child that he was a girl, etc.
> It didn't work.
Yes, yes. We all know those anecdotes. They are compelling. But you are describing the certainty that characterizes the ends of bell curve--the easy cases--and not the uncertainty and ambiguity that informs the middle.
---------------
> The girl, now a teenager that I mentioned at the
> beginning of this . . .
Above you said "trans people," but now she is a trans "girl." "Anecdotes," plural, has become "anecdote," singular.
----------------
> The video that others were talking about here and
> other similar things are almost carbon copies of
> stuff I see from far right or EV fundie news
> outlets like the Daily Signal, News Nation, etc.
That idiots are constantly saying something does not per se make it incorrect.
--------------
> There's no "conspiracy" to convert straight or gay
> kids to make them trans. Go back and look at
> 1980s album covers. Lots of gender
> non-conformity, but few, if any, of those
> performers were actually trans.
What? In fact, 1980s rock stars don't tell us anything about struggling children.
---------------
> The whole point here is that nobody to my
> knowledge is medicating kids without a long period
> of evaluation, and if that happens, it's clearly
> wrong.
Agreed that it would be "clearly wrong."
----------------
> De-transition rates are also low, and must
> be examined in the face of family/societal
> rejection, homelessness and joblessness, etc.
You contradict yourself. You said above that social and family pressures cannot make a person trans but you now assert that those pressures can make a trans person want to reverse the process.
If it can happen one way, it can happen the other.
---------------
> Things are even worse for trans people of colour
> -- who face extreme rejection and all too often
> wind up selling their bodies to survive. Until
> very recently, the average life expectancy for a
> trans woman of colour who was rejected by their
> parents as a teen and forced to live on the street
> was approximately thirty to thirty-five years.
> That's about 15 or so years of living on the
> street, and most don't make it that long,
> especially in the South.
Presumably the same as for gay kids whose families reject them, no? In which case the argument is irrelevant.
----------------
> . . . you
> can't make someone into something they are not.
But you just said that parents and society can make trans people want to go back. If it can happen one way, it can happen in the other--as many gay people can attest.
-------------
> Why not help people instead of condemning them to
> a life of rejection, pain, and suffering? That's
> what I'm saying.
We all concur in that.
-------------
There are multiple points of contention here. One is sports. The facts there are obvious and will be sorted out on a sport-by-sport basis. Closing one's eyes to the science, as you and a few other posters have done here, will not change anything.
Another disagreement is over the age at which trans procedures should be allowed. I don't know the answer, but you sound as if you are saying any kid who insists on transitioning should be allowed to do so.
A third is whether there is pressure on gay kids to transition. You say there is not. I don't think you have the background to reach that conclusion. I surely don't.
But I do think gay people have seen a lot more in this regard than most of us and deserve to be taken seriously.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 01:08AM by Lot's Wife.
---------------------
> No, I'm not saying mistakes are never made.
It then appears from your comments below that you think the mistakes are always made by your opponents and not by people on your side of the issue.
------------------
> What I am saying -- and this is based on both my
> reading of what doctors and scientists are saying
> and also personal interactions with trans people
> -- is that you can't "force" a person to mentally
> be anything but their innate gender.
Sure you can. The number of gay people who thought they were straight until late in life is significant. Societal and family pressure have immense influence over other people and especially over children and teenagers.
----------------
> Innate gender
> is innate to the individual and that can't be
> changed.
That is naive. There are people whose gender identities have changed multiple times.
Are there individuals who are sure about their gender from early childhood? Clearly yes. We've all seen them; we've all embraced them. But sexuality, like everything else in humans, is defined by a bell curve. Some are on the extremes, some sit right in the middle. Transsexuality is neither more nor less definite than any other gender identity.
--------------
> This was tried in an infamous case in Canada back
> in the 1960s where a young boy's sex organs were
> converted to female after a botched circumcision
> (that's another debate, not going to get into that
> now), and the doctor thought all you would have to
> do was to tell the child that he was a girl, etc.
> It didn't work.
Yes, yes. We all know those anecdotes. They are compelling. But you are describing the certainty that characterizes the ends of bell curve--the easy cases--and not the uncertainty and ambiguity that informs the middle.
---------------
> The girl, now a teenager that I mentioned at the
> beginning of this . . .
Above you said "trans people," but now she is a trans "girl." "Anecdotes," plural, has become "anecdote," singular.
----------------
> The video that others were talking about here and
> other similar things are almost carbon copies of
> stuff I see from far right or EV fundie news
> outlets like the Daily Signal, News Nation, etc.
That idiots are constantly saying something does not per se make it incorrect.
--------------
> There's no "conspiracy" to convert straight or gay
> kids to make them trans. Go back and look at
> 1980s album covers. Lots of gender
> non-conformity, but few, if any, of those
> performers were actually trans.
What? In fact, 1980s rock stars don't tell us anything about struggling children.
---------------
> The whole point here is that nobody to my
> knowledge is medicating kids without a long period
> of evaluation, and if that happens, it's clearly
> wrong.
Agreed that it would be "clearly wrong."
----------------
> De-transition rates are also low, and must
> be examined in the face of family/societal
> rejection, homelessness and joblessness, etc.
You contradict yourself. You said above that social and family pressures cannot make a person trans but you now assert that those pressures can make a trans person want to reverse the process.
If it can happen one way, it can happen the other.
---------------
> Things are even worse for trans people of colour
> -- who face extreme rejection and all too often
> wind up selling their bodies to survive. Until
> very recently, the average life expectancy for a
> trans woman of colour who was rejected by their
> parents as a teen and forced to live on the street
> was approximately thirty to thirty-five years.
> That's about 15 or so years of living on the
> street, and most don't make it that long,
> especially in the South.
Presumably the same as for gay kids whose families reject them, no? In which case the argument is irrelevant.
----------------
> . . . you
> can't make someone into something they are not.
But you just said that parents and society can make trans people want to go back. If it can happen one way, it can happen in the other--as many gay people can attest.
-------------
> Why not help people instead of condemning them to
> a life of rejection, pain, and suffering? That's
> what I'm saying.
We all concur in that.
-------------
There are multiple points of contention here. One is sports. The facts there are obvious and will be sorted out on a sport-by-sport basis. Closing one's eyes to the science, as you and a few other posters have done here, will not change anything.
Another disagreement is over the age at which trans procedures should be allowed. I don't know the answer, but you sound as if you are saying any kid who insists on transitioning should be allowed to do so.
A third is whether there is pressure on gay kids to transition. You say there is not. I don't think you have the background to reach that conclusion. I surely don't.
But I do think gay people have seen a lot more in this regard than most of us and deserve to be taken seriously.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 01:08AM by Lot's Wife.
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you sound as if you are saying any
> kid who insists on transitioning should be allowed
> to do so.
Absolutely 100% yes.
I will say it again: all research to date indicates that gender identity is formed in utero, is innate to the individual, and cannot be changed. You don't need to look at your parts to know what you are -- that was the mistake the doctor made in the David S. case.
What a person *does* is another matter.
Let's go back to the senior trans woman I met who grew up in the late 40s / 1950s. Very limited choices back then, and no blockers. She knew she was female, but she didn't look like it. No one believed her. What could she do about it -- especially being a poor farm kid from the Texas Panhandle? She wound up having to hide to survive. But hiding only made things worse, and it took her almost sixty years to finally jump off a train to nowhere.
Think about all the parents since the 1980s and 1990s who allowed their kids to transition, changed all their legal documents, and lived in "stealth" mode. That means there are quite a few trans kids who are now trans adults living and working and no one but their doctors and immediate family knows, and you would have no idea they were trans. They went to school, played sports, went to dances, and did whatever else kids do. They grew up, went to university, got jobs, and went out into the world.
Where's the "threat?"
It's not there because there is no threat.
As for the rest of it, let's just end this and agree to disagree.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 09:57AM by anybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
> you sound as if you are saying any
> kid who insists on transitioning should be allowed
> to do so.
Absolutely 100% yes.
I will say it again: all research to date indicates that gender identity is formed in utero, is innate to the individual, and cannot be changed. You don't need to look at your parts to know what you are -- that was the mistake the doctor made in the David S. case.
What a person *does* is another matter.
Let's go back to the senior trans woman I met who grew up in the late 40s / 1950s. Very limited choices back then, and no blockers. She knew she was female, but she didn't look like it. No one believed her. What could she do about it -- especially being a poor farm kid from the Texas Panhandle? She wound up having to hide to survive. But hiding only made things worse, and it took her almost sixty years to finally jump off a train to nowhere.
Think about all the parents since the 1980s and 1990s who allowed their kids to transition, changed all their legal documents, and lived in "stealth" mode. That means there are quite a few trans kids who are now trans adults living and working and no one but their doctors and immediate family knows, and you would have no idea they were trans. They went to school, played sports, went to dances, and did whatever else kids do. They grew up, went to university, got jobs, and went out into the world.
Where's the "threat?"
It's not there because there is no threat.
As for the rest of it, let's just end this and agree to disagree.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 09:57AM by anybody.
> As for the rest of it, let's just end this and
> agree to disagree.
I believe it is you who keeps starting these threads.
> agree to disagree.
I believe it is you who keeps starting these threads.
You don't even read your own scientific sources, yet the science is on your side. You claim to understand human sexuality and yet you insist that for trans people sexuality is uniquely binary. You tell us that children are susceptible to manipulation when choosing against transition and yet not when they opt for it.
Really, you need to decide whether you want to "agree to disagree" or to continue calling those who don't share your views "vile."
But you can't have it both ways.
Really, you need to decide whether you want to "agree to disagree" or to continue calling those who don't share your views "vile."
But you can't have it both ways.
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't even read your own scientific sources,
> yet the science is on your side. You claim to
> understand human sexuality and yet you insist that
> for trans people sexuality is uniquely binary.
> You tell us that children are susceptible to
> manipulation when choosing against transition and
> yet not when they opt for it.
>
> Really, you need to decide whether you want to
> "agree to disagree" or to continue calling those
> who don't share your views "vile."
>
> But you can't have it both ways.
I never said anything about sexuality being just binary.
What I did say is that it should be up to the individual, and people have better outcomes if their parents support them instead of trying to stop them.
If a kid tells me "the parts I was born with are not mine, have nothing to do with me, and I don't want them," I'm not going to force that child to be something they are not.
Conversely, I'm not going to make a child who likes doing gender non-conforming things into something else when they've never said they're a different gender.
There's no "conspiracy" to force people to be trans, and the only place that anything like that is happening is in Iran.
I actually knew a guy whose mother and grandmother wanted a girl and dressed him up as girl when he was growing up. Was he trans No. Was he gay? No. You can't "make" a kid "be" something -- that's why all the ridiculous stories from fundie christians are just hogwash,
I've spent years in this fight against hatred and bigotry and I know about what I'm taking about. I've seen and heard it first hand. You've probably never known a trans person who either committed suicide or was murdered, but I have.
Most of you are decades older than me, so I've done what I can to reach you.
I'm not going to respond anymore, but I'm not going to let you put words in my mouth that I never said.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 01:07PM by anybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't even read your own scientific sources,
> yet the science is on your side. You claim to
> understand human sexuality and yet you insist that
> for trans people sexuality is uniquely binary.
> You tell us that children are susceptible to
> manipulation when choosing against transition and
> yet not when they opt for it.
>
> Really, you need to decide whether you want to
> "agree to disagree" or to continue calling those
> who don't share your views "vile."
>
> But you can't have it both ways.
I never said anything about sexuality being just binary.
What I did say is that it should be up to the individual, and people have better outcomes if their parents support them instead of trying to stop them.
If a kid tells me "the parts I was born with are not mine, have nothing to do with me, and I don't want them," I'm not going to force that child to be something they are not.
Conversely, I'm not going to make a child who likes doing gender non-conforming things into something else when they've never said they're a different gender.
There's no "conspiracy" to force people to be trans, and the only place that anything like that is happening is in Iran.
I actually knew a guy whose mother and grandmother wanted a girl and dressed him up as girl when he was growing up. Was he trans No. Was he gay? No. You can't "make" a kid "be" something -- that's why all the ridiculous stories from fundie christians are just hogwash,
I've spent years in this fight against hatred and bigotry and I know about what I'm taking about. I've seen and heard it first hand. You've probably never known a trans person who either committed suicide or was murdered, but I have.
Most of you are decades older than me, so I've done what I can to reach you.
I'm not going to respond anymore, but I'm not going to let you put words in my mouth that I never said.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2024 01:07PM by anybody.
Your confidence that children are never incorrect about their sexuality and are not susceptible to manipulation is astoundingly naive. You've clearly never reared a child.
As for sexuality being "binary," you just said that all kids who say they are trans must be treated as trans. You also said that mistakes are made by those who resist transitions but not by those who support them. Those are binary statements.
Can you show any other category of sexuality where individuals are not all over the map?
As for sexuality being "binary," you just said that all kids who say they are trans must be treated as trans. You also said that mistakes are made by those who resist transitions but not by those who support them. Those are binary statements.
Can you show any other category of sexuality where individuals are not all over the map?
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As for sexuality being "binary," you just said
> that all kids who say they are trans must be
> treated as trans. You also said that mistakes are
> made by those who resist transitions but not by
> those who support them. Those are binary
> statements.
>
> Can you show any other category of sexuality where
> individuals are not all over the map?
You Can’t Force This.
Non-binary people are not trans.
I'm saying that transgender children know at an early age, and parents today listen to them instead of telling them they are crazy or confused as in years past.
I'm well over six feet tall and drive a 4x4 truck, I work in a field where there are few women, but I'm not gay or trans. My mother hated me being interested in computers, power tools, kites, model airplanes, rockets, astronomy, science fiction, etc. My dad thought it was cool and encouraged me -- but he wasn't trying to make me into a boy, nor did I ever feel I had to be male to do anything.
Children are not plastic. How are you going to make them actually think, live, and be another gender against their will?
-------------------------------------------------------
> As for sexuality being "binary," you just said
> that all kids who say they are trans must be
> treated as trans. You also said that mistakes are
> made by those who resist transitions but not by
> those who support them. Those are binary
> statements.
>
> Can you show any other category of sexuality where
> individuals are not all over the map?
You Can’t Force This.
Non-binary people are not trans.
I'm saying that transgender children know at an early age, and parents today listen to them instead of telling them they are crazy or confused as in years past.
I'm well over six feet tall and drive a 4x4 truck, I work in a field where there are few women, but I'm not gay or trans. My mother hated me being interested in computers, power tools, kites, model airplanes, rockets, astronomy, science fiction, etc. My dad thought it was cool and encouraged me -- but he wasn't trying to make me into a boy, nor did I ever feel I had to be male to do anything.
Children are not plastic. How are you going to make them actually think, live, and be another gender against their will?
Is your thinking binary? The answer is clear when you say things like "absolutely. 100%." You can't get more binary than that.
-----------------------
> I'm saying that transgender children know at an
> early age, and parents today listen to them
> instead of telling them they are crazy or confused
> as in years past.
See? There is no gray area in there. None at all.
As I said before, many weeks ago I posted a clip explaining that on average trans people have the hippocampus of the gender to which they feel they belong. I posted that as support for your position that transexuality is biologically real.
What I did not intend to assert, since I thought it was obvious, was that when a scientist does research and ends up with an "on average" result, s/he is implicitly also saying that there is variance. Some people do NOT have the brain structures of the gender to which they feel they belong.
That should make sense to you since you have been arguing that brain-body mismatches happen all the time. Yet by insisting that transexuality is always apparent to the person from childhood, you are denying the very possibility of brain-body mismatches.
Transexuality is just like any other form of sexuality or even height or intellect: distributed along a spectrum. And where there is a normal distribution, there are exceptions, meaning that there are people whose sense of transexuality is fluid. It is NOT 100% apparent from childhood and people CAN be deluded enough not to understand themselves fully at all stages of life.
Which means that mistakes can happen in both directions.
-----------------
> I'm well over six feet tall and drive a 4x4 truck,
> I work in a field where there are few women, but
> I'm not gay or trans. My mother hated me being
> interested in computers, power tools, kites, model
> airplanes, rockets, astronomy, science fiction,
> etc. My dad thought it was cool and encouraged me
> -- but he wasn't trying to make me into a boy, nor
> did I ever feel I had to be male to do anything.
Yes, you've told us all of that. And your father was right and appears to be a great dad.
----------------
> Children are not plastic. How are you going to
> make them actually think, live, and be another
> gender against their will?
anybody, have you never met a gay person who was so deluded by self or by others that s/he lived as a straight person for decades before recognizing the truth? Humans are malleable; they adjust to their circumstances; they live in constant cognitive dissonance, torn between their nature and what society and they themelves have come to expect.
That is true in spades of children. Their very survival depends on accepting and abiding by the rules imposed on them. Denying that reality is unreasonable.
-----------------------
> I'm saying that transgender children know at an
> early age, and parents today listen to them
> instead of telling them they are crazy or confused
> as in years past.
See? There is no gray area in there. None at all.
As I said before, many weeks ago I posted a clip explaining that on average trans people have the hippocampus of the gender to which they feel they belong. I posted that as support for your position that transexuality is biologically real.
What I did not intend to assert, since I thought it was obvious, was that when a scientist does research and ends up with an "on average" result, s/he is implicitly also saying that there is variance. Some people do NOT have the brain structures of the gender to which they feel they belong.
That should make sense to you since you have been arguing that brain-body mismatches happen all the time. Yet by insisting that transexuality is always apparent to the person from childhood, you are denying the very possibility of brain-body mismatches.
Transexuality is just like any other form of sexuality or even height or intellect: distributed along a spectrum. And where there is a normal distribution, there are exceptions, meaning that there are people whose sense of transexuality is fluid. It is NOT 100% apparent from childhood and people CAN be deluded enough not to understand themselves fully at all stages of life.
Which means that mistakes can happen in both directions.
-----------------
> I'm well over six feet tall and drive a 4x4 truck,
> I work in a field where there are few women, but
> I'm not gay or trans. My mother hated me being
> interested in computers, power tools, kites, model
> airplanes, rockets, astronomy, science fiction,
> etc. My dad thought it was cool and encouraged me
> -- but he wasn't trying to make me into a boy, nor
> did I ever feel I had to be male to do anything.
Yes, you've told us all of that. And your father was right and appears to be a great dad.
----------------
> Children are not plastic. How are you going to
> make them actually think, live, and be another
> gender against their will?
anybody, have you never met a gay person who was so deluded by self or by others that s/he lived as a straight person for decades before recognizing the truth? Humans are malleable; they adjust to their circumstances; they live in constant cognitive dissonance, torn between their nature and what society and they themelves have come to expect.
That is true in spades of children. Their very survival depends on accepting and abiding by the rules imposed on them. Denying that reality is unreasonable.
Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A third is whether there is pressure on gay kids to transition. You say there is not. I don't think you have the background to reach that conclusion. I surely don't.
> But I do think gay people have seen a lot more in this regard than most of us and deserve to be taken seriously.
Many gay and lesbian people who don't conform to gender stereotypes will tell you "I'm glad I wasn't born 5/10/20 years later, because I probablyu would have been transed"
We see gender non-conforming kids being put on PBs because they "always chose boys' stuff, never girls' stuff to play with" and we shake our heads in disbelief.
Let those kids grow up and they'll become happy LGB adults. You will see. Puberty usually makes everything clear.
-------------------------------------------------------
> A third is whether there is pressure on gay kids to transition. You say there is not. I don't think you have the background to reach that conclusion. I surely don't.
> But I do think gay people have seen a lot more in this regard than most of us and deserve to be taken seriously.
Many gay and lesbian people who don't conform to gender stereotypes will tell you "I'm glad I wasn't born 5/10/20 years later, because I probablyu would have been transed"
We see gender non-conforming kids being put on PBs because they "always chose boys' stuff, never girls' stuff to play with" and we shake our heads in disbelief.
Let those kids grow up and they'll become happy LGB adults. You will see. Puberty usually makes everything clear.
This probably isn't going to change your mind, and at this point, I really don't care.
This is for other people that might see this.
#########
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tTkYNXBZBuU
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/24/1088108783/texas-governor-calls-gender-affirming-care-child-abuse-this-family-fights-back
Almost from the moment he was born, Grayson Briggle had an identity of his own. By the time he was 3 years old he was consistently referring to himself as a boy, although he was assigned female at birth. He insisted on short haircuts and boys' clothes.
By the time he got to first grade, his mother, Amber Briggle, knew it was time to face facts. "Are you my son?" she asked her 6-year-old. The child looked at her and quietly said, "Yes."
That was it: Family, teachers, friends' parents, their minister – everyone got briefed. Even though the family lives in largely conservative Denton, Texas, just north of Dallas, the news turned out not to be that big of a deal. Mainly, because everyone liked Grayson.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 12:33AM by anybody.
This is for other people that might see this.
#########
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tTkYNXBZBuU
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/24/1088108783/texas-governor-calls-gender-affirming-care-child-abuse-this-family-fights-back
Almost from the moment he was born, Grayson Briggle had an identity of his own. By the time he was 3 years old he was consistently referring to himself as a boy, although he was assigned female at birth. He insisted on short haircuts and boys' clothes.
By the time he got to first grade, his mother, Amber Briggle, knew it was time to face facts. "Are you my son?" she asked her 6-year-old. The child looked at her and quietly said, "Yes."
That was it: Family, teachers, friends' parents, their minister – everyone got briefed. Even though the family lives in largely conservative Denton, Texas, just north of Dallas, the news turned out not to be that big of a deal. Mainly, because everyone liked Grayson.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 12:33AM by anybody.
anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Almost from the moment he was born, Grayson
> Briggle had an identity of his own. By the time he
> was 3 years old he was consistently referring to
> himself as a boy, although he was assigned female
> at birth. He insisted on short haircuts and boys'
> clothes.
>
> By the time he got to first grade, his mother,
> Amber Briggle, knew it was time to face facts.
> "Are you my son?" she asked her 6-year-old. The
> child looked at her and quietly said, "Yes."
>
> That was it: Family, teachers, friends' parents,
> their minister – everyone got briefed. Even
> though the family lives in largely conservative
> Denton, Texas, just north of Dallas, the news
> turned out not to be that big of a deal. Mainly,
> because everyone liked Grayson.
You keep insisting that anecdotes are data. They are not; and you, as a scientist, surely know that--unless, of course, your object is to sway people emotionally.
With regard to the cases you keep bringing up, I can show you people who were clearly heterosexual or homosexual from infancy. Those are anecdotes and they do not change the fact that most people are nearer the mode of the curve and hence more ambiguous both to themselves and to others.
There is no element of gender identity that is black-and-white, on-or-off, gay-or-straight for all people. In fact, the vast majority of people are in the gray area between the poles with a big fat chunk of the population sitting squarely in the middle. So why would you assume that there is a one-to-one correlation between gender consciousness at any particular point in time and gender identity for any but the extreme ends of the spectrum?
And why on earth would you believe that children--and even adults--are immune to social pressures that make them perceive themselves differently from what they truly are? You surely recognize that religions do that to people all the time. Yet you have asserted strongly that all people who feel that they are trans at any point in their lives must be treated as such.
Why is transsexuality binary and stable when almost everything else is not?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Almost from the moment he was born, Grayson
> Briggle had an identity of his own. By the time he
> was 3 years old he was consistently referring to
> himself as a boy, although he was assigned female
> at birth. He insisted on short haircuts and boys'
> clothes.
>
> By the time he got to first grade, his mother,
> Amber Briggle, knew it was time to face facts.
> "Are you my son?" she asked her 6-year-old. The
> child looked at her and quietly said, "Yes."
>
> That was it: Family, teachers, friends' parents,
> their minister – everyone got briefed. Even
> though the family lives in largely conservative
> Denton, Texas, just north of Dallas, the news
> turned out not to be that big of a deal. Mainly,
> because everyone liked Grayson.
You keep insisting that anecdotes are data. They are not; and you, as a scientist, surely know that--unless, of course, your object is to sway people emotionally.
With regard to the cases you keep bringing up, I can show you people who were clearly heterosexual or homosexual from infancy. Those are anecdotes and they do not change the fact that most people are nearer the mode of the curve and hence more ambiguous both to themselves and to others.
There is no element of gender identity that is black-and-white, on-or-off, gay-or-straight for all people. In fact, the vast majority of people are in the gray area between the poles with a big fat chunk of the population sitting squarely in the middle. So why would you assume that there is a one-to-one correlation between gender consciousness at any particular point in time and gender identity for any but the extreme ends of the spectrum?
And why on earth would you believe that children--and even adults--are immune to social pressures that make them perceive themselves differently from what they truly are? You surely recognize that religions do that to people all the time. Yet you have asserted strongly that all people who feel that they are trans at any point in their lives must be treated as such.
Why is transsexuality binary and stable when almost everything else is not?
Trans "grooming," etc. is a made up for fear of the week bogeyman.
Despite being constantly talked about in far-right and EV fundie sources, there's no such thing, and I've presented evidence to the contrary.
And how would a three or four year old child who has never been to school be subject to peer pressure? Or were they putting on a show for me when I was at their home? How would you even get a kid to do this for a decade?
None of the trans people I've known said they were doing it because it was "cool" or "trendy."
What they did tell me it was like being in another body just like a science fiction or horror movie or being disfigured in a horrible car accident and needing plastic surgery to look normal again.
Don't believe me? Here's info from a prominent clinic in Boston.
#######
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-examines-the-social-contagion-hypothesis-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-identities/
"BOSTON, August 3, 2022—A study published today in Pediatrics, using a large national dataset of adolescents in the U.S., provided evidence against the notion that adolescents in the U.S. come to identify as transgender due to “social contagion.”
The study also found that the percentage of teens openly identifying as transgender or gender diverse (TGD) did not increase between 2017 and 2019. Additionally, contrary to past research with smaller samples, teens assigned female at birth were not overrepresented among TGD adolescents in the U.S. It is the largest study to date to examine the controversial hypothesis that more adolescents who were assigned female at birth have identified as TGD because of “social contagion.” The study adds important new knowledge to the evolving field of transgender health care and ongoing public debate of legislative measures regulating access to gender-affirming health care.
“The hypothesis that transgender and gender diverse youth assigned female at birth identify as transgender due to social contagion does not hold up to scrutiny and should not be used to argue against the provision of gender-affirming medical care for adolescents,” said study senior author Dr. Alex S. Keuroghlian, who directs the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at The Fenway Institute and the Massachusetts General Hospital Psychiatry Gender Identity Program."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 11:01AM by anybody.
Despite being constantly talked about in far-right and EV fundie sources, there's no such thing, and I've presented evidence to the contrary.
And how would a three or four year old child who has never been to school be subject to peer pressure? Or were they putting on a show for me when I was at their home? How would you even get a kid to do this for a decade?
None of the trans people I've known said they were doing it because it was "cool" or "trendy."
What they did tell me it was like being in another body just like a science fiction or horror movie or being disfigured in a horrible car accident and needing plastic surgery to look normal again.
Don't believe me? Here's info from a prominent clinic in Boston.
#######
https://fenwayhealth.org/new-study-examines-the-social-contagion-hypothesis-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-identities/
"BOSTON, August 3, 2022—A study published today in Pediatrics, using a large national dataset of adolescents in the U.S., provided evidence against the notion that adolescents in the U.S. come to identify as transgender due to “social contagion.”
The study also found that the percentage of teens openly identifying as transgender or gender diverse (TGD) did not increase between 2017 and 2019. Additionally, contrary to past research with smaller samples, teens assigned female at birth were not overrepresented among TGD adolescents in the U.S. It is the largest study to date to examine the controversial hypothesis that more adolescents who were assigned female at birth have identified as TGD because of “social contagion.” The study adds important new knowledge to the evolving field of transgender health care and ongoing public debate of legislative measures regulating access to gender-affirming health care.
“The hypothesis that transgender and gender diverse youth assigned female at birth identify as transgender due to social contagion does not hold up to scrutiny and should not be used to argue against the provision of gender-affirming medical care for adolescents,” said study senior author Dr. Alex S. Keuroghlian, who directs the National LGBTQIA+ Health Education Center at The Fenway Institute and the Massachusetts General Hospital Psychiatry Gender Identity Program."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 11:01AM by anybody.
> Trans "grooming," etc. is a made up for fear of
> the week bogeyman.
Have I or anyone on this board denied that?
------------------
> Despite being constantly talked about in far-right
> and EV fundie sources, there's no such thing, and
> I've presented evidence to the contrary.
Irrelevant. You are not talking to a such a person.
----------------
> And how would a three or four year old child who
> has never been to school be subject to peer
> pressure?
A kid growing up in a right-wing family who insisted that girls wear pink and boys wear blue, that constantly declared that God expected them to grow up and be good straight husbands and wives? Gay people learn to live as straights in such an environments all the time. Often they tell themselves they are straight up until the day they die. That's one of the great tragedies of recent Western history.
Why would it be any different for trans kids?
-------------------
> Or were they putting on a show for me
> when I was at their home? How would you even get
> a kid to do this for a decade?
You have told us that you knew two trans people in college who ended up committing suicide and then that you have discussed these matters in detail with one other person--well, first you said several, then you said it was one woman. So I doubt you've done any systematic research on trans people or particular work on trans people who may have deceived themselves into believing that they were not trans for any significant period of time.
------------------
> None of the trans people I've known said they were
> doing it because it was "cool" or "trendy."
I don't doubt that.
------------------
> What they did tell me it was like being in another
> body just like a science fiction or horror movie
> or being disfigured in a horrible car accident and
> needing plastic surgery to look normal again.
I have no reason to doubt any of that.
------------------
> Don't believe me?
But I do believe you. You keep trying to make me defend views that are not mine.
------------------
> Here's info from a prominent
> clinic in Boston.
That study is irrelevant. I do not believe people declare themselves transexuals because it is, in your words, '"cool" or "trendy."' I believe that just like homosexuals, there are likely transexuals, probably a relatively small minority, who are confused and make mistakes about their personal identities.
I therefore believe that there should be an age or ranges, determined by people who understand the topic far better than you or I, until which medical intervention should be limited.
Does that strike you as unreasonable? If so, perhaps you need to read your studies more carefully. To wit,
> “The hypothesis that transgender and gender
> diverse youth assigned female at birth identify as
> transgender due to social contagion does not hold
> up to scrutiny and should not be used to argue
> against the provision of gender-affirming medical
> care for adolescents. . . ”
Thus the scientists who conducted the study you cite say that "gender-affirming medical care FOR ADOLESCENTS" is appropriate, thereby giving some support to my position that younger children and pre-adolescents should be treated more cautiously.
The study therefore does NOT accord with your determination that society should unquestioningly trust what "a three or four year old child" says about his or her gender identity.
Your study supports my position, not yours.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 05:03PM by Lot's Wife.
> the week bogeyman.
Have I or anyone on this board denied that?
------------------
> Despite being constantly talked about in far-right
> and EV fundie sources, there's no such thing, and
> I've presented evidence to the contrary.
Irrelevant. You are not talking to a such a person.
----------------
> And how would a three or four year old child who
> has never been to school be subject to peer
> pressure?
A kid growing up in a right-wing family who insisted that girls wear pink and boys wear blue, that constantly declared that God expected them to grow up and be good straight husbands and wives? Gay people learn to live as straights in such an environments all the time. Often they tell themselves they are straight up until the day they die. That's one of the great tragedies of recent Western history.
Why would it be any different for trans kids?
-------------------
> Or were they putting on a show for me
> when I was at their home? How would you even get
> a kid to do this for a decade?
You have told us that you knew two trans people in college who ended up committing suicide and then that you have discussed these matters in detail with one other person--well, first you said several, then you said it was one woman. So I doubt you've done any systematic research on trans people or particular work on trans people who may have deceived themselves into believing that they were not trans for any significant period of time.
------------------
> None of the trans people I've known said they were
> doing it because it was "cool" or "trendy."
I don't doubt that.
------------------
> What they did tell me it was like being in another
> body just like a science fiction or horror movie
> or being disfigured in a horrible car accident and
> needing plastic surgery to look normal again.
I have no reason to doubt any of that.
------------------
> Don't believe me?
But I do believe you. You keep trying to make me defend views that are not mine.
------------------
> Here's info from a prominent
> clinic in Boston.
That study is irrelevant. I do not believe people declare themselves transexuals because it is, in your words, '"cool" or "trendy."' I believe that just like homosexuals, there are likely transexuals, probably a relatively small minority, who are confused and make mistakes about their personal identities.
I therefore believe that there should be an age or ranges, determined by people who understand the topic far better than you or I, until which medical intervention should be limited.
Does that strike you as unreasonable? If so, perhaps you need to read your studies more carefully. To wit,
> “The hypothesis that transgender and gender
> diverse youth assigned female at birth identify as
> transgender due to social contagion does not hold
> up to scrutiny and should not be used to argue
> against the provision of gender-affirming medical
> care for adolescents. . . ”
Thus the scientists who conducted the study you cite say that "gender-affirming medical care FOR ADOLESCENTS" is appropriate, thereby giving some support to my position that younger children and pre-adolescents should be treated more cautiously.
The study therefore does NOT accord with your determination that society should unquestioningly trust what "a three or four year old child" says about his or her gender identity.
Your study supports my position, not yours.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 05:03PM by Lot's Wife.
>The study therefore does NOT accord with your determination that society should unquestioningly trust what "a three or four year old child" says about his or her gender identity.
I freely admit to being fairly ignorant on these issues although I am certainly aware of them and of all the controversy and I'm trying to keep up with trustworthy info and personal accounts.
My question after reading this post is "Are many 3 or 4 yr old children discussing their gender identity?"
I don't recall ever thinking of this as a kid or a teen or at any time. Perhaps the simple explanation for that is that I was cared for as female and indeed am female so both matched and I had no reason to question anything.
It can be somewhat confusing at first if you're only just hearing/reading about these issues. As I've mentioned, I never heard about the issues or heard the terminology growing up or in school or even in nursing education (back a while ago).
Here's an informative article about being transgender and deciding, or not, to transition:
From: Advocates for Trans Equality
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people
Excerpts:
“People can realize that they’re transgender at any age. Some people can trace their awareness back to their earlier memories – they just knew. Others may need more time to realize that they are transgender. Some people may spend years feeling like they don’t fit in without really understanding why, or may try to avoid thinking or talking about their gender out of fear, shame, or confusion. Trying to repress or change one’s gender identity doesn’t work; in fact, it can be very painful and damaging to one’s emotional and mental health. As transgender people become more visible in the media and in community life across the country, more transgender people are able to name and understand their own experience and may feel safer and more comfortable sharing it with others.
“… Transgender people risk social stigma, discrimination, and harassment when they tell other people who they really are. Parents, friends, coworkers, classmates, and neighbors may be accepting 0 but they also might not be, and many transgender people fear that they will not be accepted by their loved ones and others in their life. Despite those risks, being open about one’s gender identity, and living a life that feels truly authentic, can be a life-affirming and even life-saving decision.”
-----
It seems that some of the basics are simple and easy to comprehend. I understand why it can be confusing and also why there is controversy but I hope that most people will become as informed as possible before forming strong conclusions about their reactions and beliefs around these issues that are literally life and death for other people.
It can also take people a while to just come to understand the basics. Hopefully, the dialogue can continue and eventually many people can be better informed.
It's terribly sad to ostracize people, punish them, not try to understand what's up with them and fail them when they may need help.
It definitely takes a while for society in general to grow and change and meanwhile some people get lost in the shuffle. That's a great pity.
As for my question up top, maybe kids as young as 3 or 4 *do* know something's up. I just hope that as many of them as possible are understood and helped to get where they need to go.
My older sister and I are only one year (almost to the day) apart in age. My dear sweet much-missed mum dressed us alike as young kids and as far as house rules went we were treated exactly the same, all the way up into teenage years. My sister spent a lot of time resenting that, up into adulthood. Now I can see how much it affected her, and why (kind of) as she always felt like we shouldn't be treated the same. One of her main issues was that if she was given a major privilege I also received it at the same time. That would make it a year earlier than she received it. It's easy for me to say she shouldn't have let it bother her (and I did say that - a lot - because I didn't think it was any big deal - of course, it wasn't happening to me). My example is a far cry from this major life issue that's being discussed on this thread but in some very small way it helps me understand, at least a little more, how a child is treated and cared for and disciplined and trained affects their psyche and self-concept and other major pieces of who they are, both at the time and all the way up to and into adulthood. In short, early experiences shadow you all your life even despite efforts to just let things go. But if something is imprinted strongly it's kind of stuck there.
I think one of the most important reminders when it comes to everyone, but especially young kids in their formative years, is that when they're telling you something, listen to them.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 08:11PM by Nightingale.
I freely admit to being fairly ignorant on these issues although I am certainly aware of them and of all the controversy and I'm trying to keep up with trustworthy info and personal accounts.
My question after reading this post is "Are many 3 or 4 yr old children discussing their gender identity?"
I don't recall ever thinking of this as a kid or a teen or at any time. Perhaps the simple explanation for that is that I was cared for as female and indeed am female so both matched and I had no reason to question anything.
It can be somewhat confusing at first if you're only just hearing/reading about these issues. As I've mentioned, I never heard about the issues or heard the terminology growing up or in school or even in nursing education (back a while ago).
Here's an informative article about being transgender and deciding, or not, to transition:
From: Advocates for Trans Equality
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people
Excerpts:
“People can realize that they’re transgender at any age. Some people can trace their awareness back to their earlier memories – they just knew. Others may need more time to realize that they are transgender. Some people may spend years feeling like they don’t fit in without really understanding why, or may try to avoid thinking or talking about their gender out of fear, shame, or confusion. Trying to repress or change one’s gender identity doesn’t work; in fact, it can be very painful and damaging to one’s emotional and mental health. As transgender people become more visible in the media and in community life across the country, more transgender people are able to name and understand their own experience and may feel safer and more comfortable sharing it with others.
“… Transgender people risk social stigma, discrimination, and harassment when they tell other people who they really are. Parents, friends, coworkers, classmates, and neighbors may be accepting 0 but they also might not be, and many transgender people fear that they will not be accepted by their loved ones and others in their life. Despite those risks, being open about one’s gender identity, and living a life that feels truly authentic, can be a life-affirming and even life-saving decision.”
-----
It seems that some of the basics are simple and easy to comprehend. I understand why it can be confusing and also why there is controversy but I hope that most people will become as informed as possible before forming strong conclusions about their reactions and beliefs around these issues that are literally life and death for other people.
It can also take people a while to just come to understand the basics. Hopefully, the dialogue can continue and eventually many people can be better informed.
It's terribly sad to ostracize people, punish them, not try to understand what's up with them and fail them when they may need help.
It definitely takes a while for society in general to grow and change and meanwhile some people get lost in the shuffle. That's a great pity.
As for my question up top, maybe kids as young as 3 or 4 *do* know something's up. I just hope that as many of them as possible are understood and helped to get where they need to go.
My older sister and I are only one year (almost to the day) apart in age. My dear sweet much-missed mum dressed us alike as young kids and as far as house rules went we were treated exactly the same, all the way up into teenage years. My sister spent a lot of time resenting that, up into adulthood. Now I can see how much it affected her, and why (kind of) as she always felt like we shouldn't be treated the same. One of her main issues was that if she was given a major privilege I also received it at the same time. That would make it a year earlier than she received it. It's easy for me to say she shouldn't have let it bother her (and I did say that - a lot - because I didn't think it was any big deal - of course, it wasn't happening to me). My example is a far cry from this major life issue that's being discussed on this thread but in some very small way it helps me understand, at least a little more, how a child is treated and cared for and disciplined and trained affects their psyche and self-concept and other major pieces of who they are, both at the time and all the way up to and into adulthood. In short, early experiences shadow you all your life even despite efforts to just let things go. But if something is imprinted strongly it's kind of stuck there.
I think one of the most important reminders when it comes to everyone, but especially young kids in their formative years, is that when they're telling you something, listen to them.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2024 08:11PM by Nightingale.
Visitors Welcome. Wrote:
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> Let those kids grow up and they'll become happy
> LGB adults. You will see. Puberty usually makes
> everything clear.
If you are saying that all trans kids would grow up to be happy LGB adults, I must disagree. That would be the same sort of binary thinking that anybody keeps expressing and then, less credibly, denying.
But the point remains: if there is any chance that a child might in fact be LGB and for whatever reason is forced or encouraged to transition, then society must do everything it can to minimize the chances of such mistakes.
And as you, D&D, and some friends whom I have now consulted on this topic aver, there are such cases. Forcing trans adults or perhaps even mature teenagers to stay straight or LGB would be immoral, and so too would it be prematurely to encourage LGB people to opt for transitions.
"Religion" is not limited to the overtly religious.
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> Let those kids grow up and they'll become happy
> LGB adults. You will see. Puberty usually makes
> everything clear.
If you are saying that all trans kids would grow up to be happy LGB adults, I must disagree. That would be the same sort of binary thinking that anybody keeps expressing and then, less credibly, denying.
But the point remains: if there is any chance that a child might in fact be LGB and for whatever reason is forced or encouraged to transition, then society must do everything it can to minimize the chances of such mistakes.
And as you, D&D, and some friends whom I have now consulted on this topic aver, there are such cases. Forcing trans adults or perhaps even mature teenagers to stay straight or LGB would be immoral, and so too would it be prematurely to encourage LGB people to opt for transitions.
"Religion" is not limited to the overtly religious.
Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> If you are saying that all trans kids would grow up to be happy LGB adults, I must disagree.
Oh, I'm not. But many would.
> But the point remains: if there is any chance that a child might in fact be LGB and for whatever reason is forced or encouraged to transition, then society must do everything it can to minimize the chances of such mistakes.
And yet these mistakes are being made right now. Before 2015, say, when kids were rarely put on PBs, 80-95% of children with gender dysphoria grew out of it during puberty, as puberty cleared things up.
When kids are put on PB, that doesn't happen and their body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria only worsens: their friends become adults while they remain a child and they are more likely to go on HRT.
As many experts have said: PBs are not a pause button, they are a FFWD button.
> "Religion" is not limited to the overtly religious.
The average TERF being a leftist, lesbian atheist, they often compare transgenderism to a religion or a cult.
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> If you are saying that all trans kids would grow up to be happy LGB adults, I must disagree.
Oh, I'm not. But many would.
> But the point remains: if there is any chance that a child might in fact be LGB and for whatever reason is forced or encouraged to transition, then society must do everything it can to minimize the chances of such mistakes.
And yet these mistakes are being made right now. Before 2015, say, when kids were rarely put on PBs, 80-95% of children with gender dysphoria grew out of it during puberty, as puberty cleared things up.
When kids are put on PB, that doesn't happen and their body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria only worsens: their friends become adults while they remain a child and they are more likely to go on HRT.
As many experts have said: PBs are not a pause button, they are a FFWD button.
> "Religion" is not limited to the overtly religious.
The average TERF being a leftist, lesbian atheist, they often compare transgenderism to a religion or a cult.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/szwes6/is_it_true_that_most_trans_kids_grow_out_of/
" No.
All the evidence we have indicates that, no, people don't outgrow gender dysphoria.
It does happen--sadly often--that trans kids give up on these feelings, ones they can't do anything about, especially when they're surrounded by homophobic and transphobic parents or religious leaders who demonize them for having those feelings (which is a lot of kids in conservative households), or when they're surrounded by peers who are constantly gender-policing their behavior and bullying them for not conforming to the expectations of their birth-assigned gender (which is everybody, regardless of household).
The sad truth is that often, it just feels too scary or plain dangerous to ever admit to having these feelings. So you don't. You stuff them in a box and throw them in the back of your mental closet, in the dark, under a bunch of old sweatshirts and you never look at it anymore. You do your best to fit in, even though you don't really. You suffer, but you do it quietly.
Day by day, you get by. Or you give up and kill yourself. That happens a lot, too.
But you don't outgrow the dysphoria. To the rest of the world it might look that way. "Oh, little Suzie isn't demanding to cut her hair short anymore. Thank goodness she's finally growing it out. She looks so pretty that way. And whew! For a minute we thought we had a sicko on our hands!" But that's not what happened. Repression is not the same as outgrowing--or growing past--something.
The dysphoria is still there. In the box. Lurking in the back of the closet where you never, ever dare look. Slowly growing. Slowly compounding its influence on your life, building pressure against the sides of that box. Until one day--maybe ten years down the road, maybe 30, maybe 50--that box starts to leak or just fucking explodes and wham. You realize what the problem with your life has been all along. "
" No.
All the evidence we have indicates that, no, people don't outgrow gender dysphoria.
It does happen--sadly often--that trans kids give up on these feelings, ones they can't do anything about, especially when they're surrounded by homophobic and transphobic parents or religious leaders who demonize them for having those feelings (which is a lot of kids in conservative households), or when they're surrounded by peers who are constantly gender-policing their behavior and bullying them for not conforming to the expectations of their birth-assigned gender (which is everybody, regardless of household).
The sad truth is that often, it just feels too scary or plain dangerous to ever admit to having these feelings. So you don't. You stuff them in a box and throw them in the back of your mental closet, in the dark, under a bunch of old sweatshirts and you never look at it anymore. You do your best to fit in, even though you don't really. You suffer, but you do it quietly.
Day by day, you get by. Or you give up and kill yourself. That happens a lot, too.
But you don't outgrow the dysphoria. To the rest of the world it might look that way. "Oh, little Suzie isn't demanding to cut her hair short anymore. Thank goodness she's finally growing it out. She looks so pretty that way. And whew! For a minute we thought we had a sicko on our hands!" But that's not what happened. Repression is not the same as outgrowing--or growing past--something.
The dysphoria is still there. In the box. Lurking in the back of the closet where you never, ever dare look. Slowly growing. Slowly compounding its influence on your life, building pressure against the sides of that box. Until one day--maybe ten years down the road, maybe 30, maybe 50--that box starts to leak or just fucking explodes and wham. You realize what the problem with your life has been all along. "
Regarding the scientific integrity of trans treatment arguments:
I find that any discussion regarding trans children is ignoring science if they do not separate biological males from females. Boy to girl and girl to boy are completely different phenomenas.
Autogynephelia is almost exclusively reported in biological males. Whereas, studies of psychogenic epidemics show that anywhere between 77 and 90% of those affected are biological girls. Sexual attraction is also statistically more fluid in biological females.
In the science of MNS (the mirror neuron system) in the human brain, the science is still young, but there does appear to be a higher activity of MNS in biological females which would impact their susceptibility to psychogenic epidemics. Not to mention that the MNS activity varies as we age, which would be another reason to delay permanent "mirroring" decisions until a more mature age.
Males are 4x more likely to be autistic which increases the likelihood of trans identification.
The big differences in the rates of trans identifying, in requests for transition treatments, in specific treatments - like genital reassignment, etc all point to this being two vastly different things.
D&D is correct in that the majority of gender dysphoria have historically ended up as gay males, partially because the historic cases of gender dysphoria were almost all biological males and also because puberty did change the way they identified.
Anyone who purports to have the answer to how trans identifying individuals in general should be medically treated who doesn't separate out males and female origins is completely unscientific. The argument that we should wait to treat minors until that science has been explored is completely reasonable.
And on a side note, I hate using the combination biological male/female (even though I just did). It's like saying "triangular triangle", since male and female are biological terms for which member of the species creates the small gamete and which produces the large one. "Male/Female" is not "assigned" at birth, it is scientifically "identified" based on available evidence. What is "assigned" is the boy/girl factor in how they are raised in society based on how the parents interpret what is appropriate after the male/female identification. Scientific doesn't mean "perfect". The existence of mistakes (which would only apply to intersex individuals) does not invalidate the very scientifically correct process of identifying sex based on the best available secondary characteristics. "Assigned" and "trans" should never be applied to the words "male/female". A large portion of current arguments could be much easier if we don't mix words that have different meanings to different people. Language is for clarity, not morality.
I find that any discussion regarding trans children is ignoring science if they do not separate biological males from females. Boy to girl and girl to boy are completely different phenomenas.
Autogynephelia is almost exclusively reported in biological males. Whereas, studies of psychogenic epidemics show that anywhere between 77 and 90% of those affected are biological girls. Sexual attraction is also statistically more fluid in biological females.
In the science of MNS (the mirror neuron system) in the human brain, the science is still young, but there does appear to be a higher activity of MNS in biological females which would impact their susceptibility to psychogenic epidemics. Not to mention that the MNS activity varies as we age, which would be another reason to delay permanent "mirroring" decisions until a more mature age.
Males are 4x more likely to be autistic which increases the likelihood of trans identification.
The big differences in the rates of trans identifying, in requests for transition treatments, in specific treatments - like genital reassignment, etc all point to this being two vastly different things.
D&D is correct in that the majority of gender dysphoria have historically ended up as gay males, partially because the historic cases of gender dysphoria were almost all biological males and also because puberty did change the way they identified.
Anyone who purports to have the answer to how trans identifying individuals in general should be medically treated who doesn't separate out males and female origins is completely unscientific. The argument that we should wait to treat minors until that science has been explored is completely reasonable.
And on a side note, I hate using the combination biological male/female (even though I just did). It's like saying "triangular triangle", since male and female are biological terms for which member of the species creates the small gamete and which produces the large one. "Male/Female" is not "assigned" at birth, it is scientifically "identified" based on available evidence. What is "assigned" is the boy/girl factor in how they are raised in society based on how the parents interpret what is appropriate after the male/female identification. Scientific doesn't mean "perfect". The existence of mistakes (which would only apply to intersex individuals) does not invalidate the very scientifically correct process of identifying sex based on the best available secondary characteristics. "Assigned" and "trans" should never be applied to the words "male/female". A large portion of current arguments could be much easier if we don't mix words that have different meanings to different people. Language is for clarity, not morality.
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