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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 01, 2025 09:22AM

To quote Han Solo who said "I've been all over this galaxy, and I've seen a lot of strange things," but one of the strangest of all is the ability for some humans to deny the reality of what is happening right before their eyes (take note, ex-Mormons.)


The same scientific reasoning that enables a doctor to successfully diagnose and treat you for cancer is the same scientific reasoning that allows the vast majority of scientists to examine the data and state that anthropogenic climate change is real.


Humans have known for about two hundred years that certain gases and aerosols can trap or block heat in the atmosphere (1818, the Year Without A Summer), and it didn't take long for people to link average temperature rise to human activity and not just volcanic eruptions. The data have been made public for all the world to see ( https://science.nasa.gov/climate-change/evidence/ ).


But what if you believe that fires and storms are caused by divine retribution for "sin?" Does it matter what humans do?



************


https://www.nature.com/articles/s44168-024-00163-9


Religious characteristics are predictive of Americans’ skepticism toward climate-related science and policy. Though attributable to a variety of interrelated factors, we propose specific religious beliefs help explain the dynamic in part. Specifically, we theorize that belief in divine (versus human) control over Earth’s climate likely engenders skepticism toward scientific claims that human behavior is leading Earth toward environmental crisis. Regression analyses with national survey data (N = 5321) demonstrate that believing “God would not allow humans to destroy the Earth” is associated with lower concern about climate change. Next, a pre-registered survey experiment (N = 3345) finds that manipulating belief in God’s—vis-à-vis humans’—control of Earth’s climate reduced the perceived severity of climate change and need for policy intervention. Our manipulation also reduced demand for climate-related information from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association. These results establish an important causal link between a religious belief and climate change attitudes in the U.S. public.


***


Though limited, extant research suggests theology plays a critical, if often ignored, role in shaping environmental attitudes. A number of studies, for example, have found “premillennial” or “dispensational” eschatological beliefs are robust predictors of Americans opposing government action to protect the environment or curb global warming17. These authors argue such “End-Times” theological beliefs might lead Americans to question the importance of preserving what will ultimately be destroyed in God’s due time. Related studies have shown that belief in a God who is either authoritative or benevolent in his involvement, rather than a mystical cosmic force, reduces support for environmental sustainability policies9,18, while others show belief in the “sacredness” of the environment diminishes beliefs in environmental risks such as pollution19. Yet recent scholarship has challenged the notion that belief in an involved deity with specific plans for the Earth necessarily leads to environmental apathy. Different studies by Veldman and Pogue, for example, instead argue more characteristically evangelical theological beliefs mark conservative political communities for whom climate skepticism has become a dominant norm20,21.

Another prominent line of research follows White’s thesis that “Judeo-Christian” influences have led Westerners to believe God has granted human “dominion” over the world to use as they please3,22,23,24,25. This is contrasted with a related Judeo-Christian idea of environmental “stewardship”26,27,28,29. Such beliefs have been shown to carry important implications. To the extent citizens believe the God of the Bible has granted humanity “dominion” over Earth, they exhibit less concern about their impact on the Earth. Alternatively, to the extent they believe God has appointed them as “stewards” responsible for Earth’s care, they show more concern30. On the one hand, studies that have explicitly measured the “dominion” concept find it negatively associated with environmental concerns or support for interventions, while experimentally priming a “stewardship frame” inclined Christians toward climate change belief29. Yet within contemporary political landscape, the climate attitudes of the most conservative Americans (e.g., evangelical Protestants) may be too rooted in partisan identities and norms for such theological beliefs to matter. Indeed, as early as 2012, Djupe and Burge found “dominion” beliefs only seemed to matter for non-evangelicals’ environmental attitudes22.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2025 09:32AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Jake Thallon ( )
Date: February 01, 2025 10:28AM

This hides the deeper problem which is that the carbon crisis is used as an excuse for tax farming.

The Mormon leadership do not deny climate change. The mainstream members don't either. If anything they see it all as a sign of the end and that is the real problem.

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Posted by: unconventional ( )
Date: February 02, 2025 01:02AM

So they accept it, but are unwilling to do anything to mitigate it? Is that what you mean?

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Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: February 02, 2025 09:00PM

When you eagerly await the arrival of your personal savior who will take you to paradise, destruction is progress.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 02, 2025 09:24PM

Fulfillment of prophesy, cause for celebration.

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Posted by: Scooby Doo ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 10:33PM

Interesting, on the subject of climate change I've wondered why I haven't seen more people I know who Buddhists talk much about it. Reincarnation and coming back and all that.

As for myself, my understanding is that the climate is always changing, to be static would be abnormal. I've noticed that when talking climate change I rarely see the word man-made climate change, just assumed that's the case....

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 10:43PM

Your Buddhist friends?

XXX



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2025 11:40PM by Maude.

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 10:59PM

Buddhist reincarnation theology is way different than Christian Second Coming concepts. The difference is that in Buddhism, what you do in this live matters very much because it determines the kind of life you will inhabit in the next one. The Christians believe that the only thing that matters is, well, believing the right things- your behavior is meaningless.The Atonement is a free pass. For Buddhists, that thought is horrifying.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 11:06PM

I understand that.

The Buddhist reverence for life means that its adherents abhor anything that increases suffering or accelerates death. It follows that people who do not do their best to stop global warming would incur bad karma and suffer themselves in their future incarnations.

Putting that aside, my point was that the number of Buddhists who live in Scooby Doo's corner of Southern Utah could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand; xxx.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2025 11:42PM by Maude.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 11:28PM

>the number of Buddhists who live in Scooby Doo's corner of Southern Utah could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand;


https://tahrimarpoling.org/

https://tricycle.org/magazine/desert-lotus-tibetan-buddhism-blossoms-southern-utah/

I don't know how many people there are, but I suspect it is more than 5.

There is also this place

https://buddhistrecovery.org/about-us/

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Posted by: Scooby Doo ( )
Date: February 04, 2025 12:43AM

Southern Utah? Where did that come from? Your comments could be taken as politely calling me a liar of some sort. The comments posted on Buddhists beliefs square with my understanding, however have not seen many Buddhists I know talk much about global warming. Which was somewhat the point of my post questioning why.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 04, 2025 04:39PM

The Buddhists that I count or have counted as friends don't talk about their faith, period, except for the fact that Buddhist is how they identify. Probably one factor is that it is not a proselytizing religion. And honestly, they've probably faced a lot of hostility and discrimination in this country.

What I know about the faith largely comes from my high school and college classes. As a part of a college class, I did visit a Buddhist temple. It was lovely, and we were shown an exquisite sand mandala. If you inquire, they suggest meditation. Anything more is entirely up to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2025 04:41PM by summer.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 11, 2025 12:28PM

The world is made of colored sand.

Colored sand is made of time.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 03, 2025 11:29PM

I wouldn't say that Christians teach that only belief matters & behaviour isn't part of it. More like your belief will change your behaviour as needed. I haven't heard anything about the Atonement being a free pass. More like if you truly believe you won't be a jerk.

Your belief motivates change iow, not that it gives you a free pass to be a jerk.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 06, 2025 02:24AM

I put my absolute complete faith & confidence in God, our Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ;

However I still look both ways when proceeding thru an intersection or crossing the street...

Signed, Having it Bothways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2025 02:25AM by GNPE.

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Posted by: Question ( )
Date: February 06, 2025 07:29AM

Hi, I'm just wondering if you could point us to a conference talk or GA statement which denies climate change, please?

If not, maybe we should be talking about relevant questions instead.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 06, 2025 09:33AM

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/10/14/latter-day-saints-among-least/


In all, just 10% of Latter-day Saints say they are worried about climate change, with close to half (44%) placing the blame for it on natural phenomena. Some 8% say there is no solid evidence climate change is happening in the first place.

***

Environmental advocate George Handley, a humanities professor at church-owned Brigham Young University, says the lack of alarm among religious Americans regarding climate change doesn’t surprise him. The eye-opener for him is how low his fellow Latter-day Saints rank when compared to other people of faith.

The Provo City Council member has been teaching, writing and speaking about environmental issues for 25 years. During that time, he has witnessed a tremendous shift in his students and Utah politicians, many of whom are Latter-day Saints, when it comes to their interest on the subject.

All these changes have corresponded with a greater emphasis among church leaders on the subject. This includes a 2018 address by Steven Snow, now an emeritus general authority Seventy, at Utah State University in which he affirmed “climate change is real, and it’s our responsibility as stewards to do what we can to limit the damage done to God’s creation.”

Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé, speaking in General Conference in 2022, called on the faithful worldwide to “use the bountiful resources of the Earth more reverently and prudently,” an instruction echoed in a speech delivered earlier this year by his first counselor, W. Christopher Waddell, at the University of Utah.

And, in a 2017 address at BYU-Hawaii, apostle Dallin H. Oaks, now a member of the governing First Presidency and next in line to lead the global faith, warned of the rising ocean levels posed to coastal cities and noted that “global warming is also affecting agriculture and wildlife.”

He didn’t weigh in on what role humans play in climate change.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 06, 2025 10:23AM

They teach people to pray about weather all the time.
That means they believe God is not only in control of the weather, but able to consider weather requests from His pets.
They teach God "loves" you (so he's going to flood your house?).

That is not exactly compatible with scientific climate change.

You expect them to actually come out and say either way? That's not how they operate. Like a horoscope, they say things that allow any member to see what they want to see.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 06, 2025 10:49AM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like a
> horoscope, they say things that allow any member
> to see what they want to see.

Mormonism isn't a real faith, just a cult run by LD$, Inc. as a tax shield and a source of perpetual investment income.

There's no spiritual "growth" in Mormonism, just empty ritual.

It just has to exist and operate as a "church."

That's all.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 08:59PM

Elvis has left the building.

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Posted by: jumping javelina ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 07:54PM

deeply aligned with scientism (BELIEF in "THE science" without any real scientific knowledge, background or understanding).

In this sense, it is a kind of faith and CAGW a kind of religion. People believe in global warming because a constant barrage of propaganda from "authorities" tells them to believe. They are told their very existence depends on it. Those who don't believe are "climate deniers". They believe it is caused by man because that's what well-funded apologists disguised as scientists tell them to believe. They also believe it can be ended -- we can all be saved -- if we just give enough money to the government that funds the apologists.

Climate is always changing. The Great Lakes were formed by an ice sheet thousands of feet thick that receded within the last 20,000 years -- barely even a blip in geologic time scales. CO2 is a trace gas comprising only 0.04% of our atmosphere and humans are responsible for only a small portion of that. H2O is much more responsible than CO2 for holding heat in the atmosphere and yet one never hears TV talking heads mentioning 2024's temperature being affected by the 58,000 Olympic size swimming pools (about 300 Billion pounds) worth of water vapor propelled into the atmosphere by the Tonga volcano. It was mentioned just after then buried, never to be mentioned again by warmist apologists.

It takes a level of zealotry typically reserved for religious radicals to believe that a small bump in CO2 is cause for alarm, much less an existential threat.

Even the apologists readily admit (because they have no choice -- the evidence is too obvious) the bump in CO2 has caused a great greening worldwide -- enough green leaves to cover USA twice over. This was caused by CO2 released from the burning of fossil fuels. Yet nearly every energy source BUT fossil fuels is called "green" by the apologists. If you can't see this for what it is, you need a deep reality check -- way deeper than was required for escaping the grips of Mormonism. It is Bizarro World level of gaslighting. Up is down. Black is white.

Like you questioned Mormonism, question CAGW. You'll find both equally true.

That many "climate deniers" (even the apologists' name for the opposition is a lie -- people who don't believe man is responsible for dangerous changes in climate don't deny that climate changes) are religious doesn't mean they're wrong. In this case they're dead on.

jj

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 08:12PM

Give it a rest, Jordan or whatever nom-de-plume you are happening to use this week.

There's no "belief" here, just evaluation of data.

As I said, this isn't new.


Look at the date of this seminal paper -- 1896.


############


https://www.rsc.org/images/arrhenius1896_tcm18-173546.pdf

On the Influence of Carbonic Acid
in the Air upon the Temperature of
the Ground


Svante Arrhenius
Philosophical Magazine and Journal of Science


Series 5, Volume 41, April 1896, pages 237-276.


This photocopy was prepared by Robert A. Rohde for Global
Warming


(http://www.globalwarmingart.com/) from original printed
material that is now in the public domain.


Arrhenius’s paper is the first to quantify the contribution of carbon dioxide to the greenhouse effect (Sections I-IV) and to speculate about whether variations in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide have contributed to long-term variations in climate (Section V).

Throughout this paper, Arrhenius refers to carbon dioxide as “carbonic acid” in accordance with the convention at the time
he was writing.

Contrary to some misunderstandings, Arrhenius does not explicitly suggest in this paper that the burning of fossil fuels will cause global warming, though it is clear that he is aware that fossil fuels are a potentially significant source of carbon dioxide (page 270), and he does explicitly suggest this outcome in later work.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2025 08:14PM by anybody.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 09:10PM

"Series 5, Volume 41, April 1896"

That was before ice core samples. The data from ice core samples going back many millenia and high-resolution temperature measurements in the downhole show that modern temperature trends are nothing new. Climate data logging began at a dip, giving the appearance of global warming. Climate crisis is just the latest mass hysteria that will pass when the next mass hysteria comes along.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 09:48PM

The Kool-Aid and tinfoil brigade is out in farce today!

Far be it from me to suggest, bradley, that your research is less than compelling, but if you are going to cite Arrhenius you should try to get him right.

First, he was the earliest prominent scientist to explain (same source, p. 270) that the consumption of fossil fuels was a potential source of CO2 and hence could warm the earth.

Second, in later publications he revised his opinion that anthropogenic climate change was "hysteria" and declared that his his new research showed that fossil fuels were indeed causing global warming.

Third, you should look at what's happened to the concentration of atmospheric carbon since then because if you really are a fan of Arrhenius's methodology and conclusions, you would surely want to keep up to date--give or take a century--with his later work.

Either that or stick your head back in the sand and pretend that Arrhenius was right in 1896 but then lost his mind.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 10:10PM

https://nsidc.org/learn/ask-scientist/core-climate-history

"So, what do ice cores say about carbon?

The NSF-ICF reports that ice cores preserve evidence of much lower levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide than today. Since the start of the Pleistocene Epoch, roughly 2 million years ago, some periods in which glaciers retreated (called glaciations and interglacials) caused massive swings in carbon dioxide. For a period of at least 800,000 years, CO2 concentrations ranged from 180 to 300 parts per million, according to a high-resolution ice-core record from Antarctica.

Since the start of the Industrial Age, however, human-caused greenhouse-gas emissions have steadily raised CO2 concentrations. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Global Monitoring Laboratory reports that, as of the week beginning February 26, 2023, CO2 emissions stood at 421.91 parts per million.

Compared to ancient atmospheric composition, today’s atmosphere has more carbon dioxide, and that carbon dioxide has a smaller proportion of carbon-14. Both these facts show the effect of human activity and the burning of massive amounts of fossil fuel."

"Cores were taken from the Allan Hills Blue Ice Areas in East Antarctica—an area where lateral glacier flow and complex topography in the windswept region pushes ancient ice close to the surface. Yan and colleagues described an ice sample 2.7 million years old. They dated the samples through chemical analysis of argon in air trapped in the ice. The results indicated that carbon dioxide did not exceed 300 parts per million.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 08:22PM

I'm not sure you are talking about what the issue is regarding climate change.

Sure, you're right about the big picture. The earth has had extremes before, and over time will again long after we are gone. It seems naïve to think that humans control anything. Ice ages have come and gone. Earth was once molten hot. And these happened without humans burning oil.
I don’t think anyone would argue with how insignificant humans have been in Earth’s geological history.

BUT, the item that the global warming supporters are really talking about is not exactly the same idea as what the deniers are pointing out. The issue is really about ABRUPT climate change.

We have been lucky to be in a sweet spot when it comes to climate for tens of thousands of years. The factors that balance and maintain that sweet spot have been relatively consistent. But humans can tip the scale just enough to pop us out of the sweet spot. That appears to be what is happening.
We are insignificant in the big picture, but we can be the straw that broke the camel’s back. We can trigger something abrupt. That is what all the fuss is about.

Humans potentially could speed things up and ruin the lucky current circumstances we have enjoyed. We have been in a fragile lucky loop as we can see from ice core sample studies. Breaking the loop will likely kick us out of the climate garden of Eden, and back to the extremes that you described.

The global warming advocates are really talking about ways to prolong and maintain the fortunate loop we are in. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what the issues really are.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 10:04PM

>H2O is much more responsible than CO2 for holding heat in the atmosphere and yet one never hears TV talking heads mentioning 2024's temperature being affected by the 58,000 Olympic size swimming pools (about 300 Billion pounds) worth of water vapor propelled into the atmosphere by the Tonga volcano. It was mentioned just after then buried, never to be mentioned again by warmist apologists.

Because Hunga Tonga didn't contribute to temperature increase

https://artsci.tamu.edu/news/2024/07/new-study-disputes-hunga-tonga-volcanos-role-in-2023-24-global-warm-up.html

"Because water vapor is a powerful greenhouse gas, Dessler says there was initial speculation that it might account for the extreme global warmth in 2023 and 2024. Instead, the results of the team's research, published today (Wednesday, July 24) in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Atmospheres, reveal the opposite: The eruption actually contributed to cooling the Earth, similar to other major volcanic events."

https://eos.org/research-spotlights/atmospheric-effects-of-hunga-tonga-eruption-lingered-for-years

"Schoeberl et al. examined how Hunga’s eruption affected climate in the Southern Hemisphere over the following 2 years. They found that in the year following the eruption, the cooling effect from the volcanic aerosols reflecting sunlight into outer space was stronger than the warming caused by water vapors trapping heat in the atmosphere. But most of the volcano’s effects had dissipated by the end of 2023."

"https://airbornescience.nasa.gov/content/The_Estimated_Climate_Impact_of_the_Hunga_Tonga-Hunga_Haapai_Eruption_Plume

"On 15 January 2022, the Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha'apai (HT) eruption injected SO2 and water into the middle stratosphere. The SO2 is rapidly converted to sulfate aerosols. The aerosol and water vapor anomalies have persisted in the Southern Hemisphere throughout 2022. The water vapor anomaly increases the net downward IR radiative flux whereas the aerosol layer reduces the direct solar forcing. The direct solar flux reduction is larger than t"he increased IR flux. Thus, the net tropospheric forcing will be negative. The changes in radiative forcing peak in July and August and diminish thereafter. Scaling to the observed cooling after the 1991 Pinatubo eruption, HT would cool the 2022 Southern Hemisphere's average surface temperatures by less than 0.037°C. Plain Language Summary The Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha'apai submarine volcanic eruption on 15 January 2022 produced aerosol and water vapor plumes in the stratosphere. These plumes have persisted mostly in the Southern Hemisphere throughout 2022. Enhanced tropospheric warming due to the added stratospheric water vapor is offset by the larger stratospheric aerosol attenuation of solar radiation. The change in the radiative flux could result in a very slight cooling in Southern Hemisphere surface temperatures.

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Posted by: jumping javelina ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 11:31PM

CO2 from the burning of fossil fuels gets blamed when there's a drought, when there's flooding, when there's no snow, when there is snow. It even gets blamed for cold weather.

It all becomes meaningless. The farce is revealed.

Then there are the lies.

There is no increase in tornadoes or hurricanes or their intensity.

Climate change is not new.

It is not being sped up by us.

To those who say we MIGHT be POSSIBLE culprits to changes that MAY occur: OK, anything's possible. So should we spend trillions of dollars on it that we don't have?

Where does all that money go?

When you mix science with politics what you end up with is politics.

We are being fleeced by people who are expert at propaganda -- The Big Lie.

jj

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 10, 2025 11:56PM

Well, I'm glad you liked my use of the word "farce" enough to adopt it. That at least shows a modicum of sentience.

As for the rest, why don't you point us to authoritative statements by respected scientists who support your assertions?

You can do that, right?

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Posted by: jumping javelina ( )
Date: February 13, 2025 12:56AM

Are you implying you are unaware of or incapable of finding proponents of the other side of this multi-trillion dollar issue?

And "authoritative statements"? Really? If you can't find a scientist on the other side of the issue, my citing one will certainly not meet your criteria for "authoritative". A six year old with a PC and enough sentience to pour milk could find enough of what you're demanding from me to stay busy reading for a lifetime.

"Respected"? Respected by whom? Respected by people who share your opinion?

Need I remind you of the Sagan Standard, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? The extraordinary claim here is yours, that man's small contribution to a trace gas is an existential threat to mankind in the form of a phenomenon that has already been occurring for billions of years. That there is an industry with billions of dollars to push this nonsense does not equate to proof. It equates to graft. There is prize money offered for proof. It has not been claimed. Apparently the ones offering the prize have not heard any authoritative statements by respected scientists. Maybe you could be the one.

jj

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 13, 2025 01:20AM

You can do the basic experiments that demostrate how methane, CO2, etc can trap heat.


Is there a vast conspiracy run by some secret cabal to make up all of this false information?

No one will benefit from the mass social upheaval caused by the effects of global heating. Who is trying to create this concern which you say is an illusion?


You are exhibiting all the signs of cult-like thinking -- which was my original point.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 13, 2025 01:30AM

You're the one making the claim, so it is incumbent on you to prove your point. Plaudits, however, for so boldly trying to make me evidence your claims.


-------------
> Need I remind you of the Sagan Standard,
> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary
> evidence"? The extraordinary claim here is yours,
> that man's small contribution to a trace gas is an
> existential threat to mankind in the form of a
> phenomenon that has already been occurring for
> billions of years.

You see? That's where you get silly. On the one hand you assert that you understand the science sufficiently to provide evidence. On the other, you treat us only to more bombast.


--------------
> That there is an industry with
> billions of dollars to push this nonsense does not
> equate to proof. It equates to graft. There is
> prize money offered for proof.

Well, now I'm starting to see the light.

Failing to see the money behind my views is a fundamental error, to be sure. Hithertofore I was laboring under the delusion that the oil industry spent "billions of dollars to push [their] nonsense" for the last seven decades. In my more flighty moments I may even have considered that "graft." But I must clearly revise my views now that you have disabused me of my mistake and returned the oil companies to the pristine heights of moral probity.

Thank you, jj!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2025 01:33AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: peasant ( )
Date: February 13, 2025 02:54AM

I believe in anthropogenic climate change, but it is pretty clear that it is being used to promote abusive agendas. The biggest joke is that the parties that have caused pollution in the first place (multinational corporations and governments) are getting the masses to pay for the problems they created. The rich get to keep their megayachts and Lear jets while the peasants struggle to afford to heat their homes and are banned from using practical modes of transport. My problem isn't with the idea of climate change, it's with supposed solutions which hurt people and do not solve the problem.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 13, 2025 07:28AM

peasant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> it's with supposed solutions which hurt people and
> do not solve the problem.

What are these supposed solutions which you claim do not work?

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Posted by: Jumping Javelina ( )
Date: February 22, 2025 11:27PM

I'm the one making the claim?

Do you not see the absurdity of your statement?

"The claim" is that man causes global warming.

That is "the claim" that needs proving.

I am the skeptic.

jj

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 22, 2025 11:39PM

If a person in a tinfoil hat asserts that the world is flat, it is incumbent on people with a more accurate perception of reality to persuade him that he is wrong?

The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic climate change is real; the bulk of the evidence supports that consensus. If you don't understand that, all I can do is compliment you on your new hat.

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Posted by: jumping javelina ( )
Date: March 03, 2025 01:33AM

You use the term "consensus" a lot. Science is not done via "consensus". I don't quite understand your insistence in this regard, but I will respond.
Like playing the old party game "telephone", the use of the term "consensus" in regard to CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming), whatever the source or in whatever context, likely hearkens back to the "97% consensus" report from around 2013 by John Cook. I will comment on that report later, but before that, a little on consensus when it comes to science. At the end of this post you will find a link to an experiment at CERN called CLOUD. This came out of work by Henrik Svensmark. A sentence at the end is of particular interest: "Although they observe that a fraction of cloud nuclei is effectively produced by ionisation due to the interaction of cosmic rays with the constituents of Earth atmosphere, this process is insufficient to attribute all of the present climate modifications to the fluctuations of the cosmic rays intensity modulated by changes in the solar activity and Earth magnetosphere."

Consensus
"It is a strange claim to make [97% concensus]. Consensus or near-consensus is not a scientific argument. Indeed, the heroes in the history of science are those who challenged the prevailing consensus and convincingly demonstrated that everyone thought wrong. Such heroes are even better appreciated if they take on not only the scientific establishment but the worldly and godly authorities as well."

"Well known examples of this include the challenges to the theory that Earth was the center of the universe, that infection was spread by surgeons who didn’t wash their hands, that the Earth’s crust had plates that moved, and that gastric ulcers were caused by a bacterial infection, and not stress as physicians once widely believed. As William Briggs writes:"

"There was once a consensus among astronomers that the heavens were static, that the boundaries of the universe constant. But in 1929, Hubble observed his red shift among the stars, overturning that consensus. In 1904, there was a consensus among physicists that Newtonian mechanics was, at last, the final word in explaining the workings of the [universe]. All that was left to do was to mop up the details. But in 1905, Einstein and a few others soon convinced them that this view was false.'

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.”
"That is from Charles Mackay in his book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds first published in 1841."

"I think it is an apt description of the process that led to Cook et al. (2013) [the 97% concensus paper] Quantifying the consensus on anthropogenic global warming in the scientific literature because that paper is in fact, a product of a crowd evaluating a crowd."

"Consensus can also cause disaster, as NASA proved with a consensus of management that solid rocket booster O-rings affected by unusual cold weren’t worth worrying about or that a foam strike during launch wouldn’t damage the wing of the space shuttle and were “not even worth mentioning”.

"Clearly, the power of thousands in agreement on scientific consensus can’t stand up to stubborn facts and that is the self-correcting process of science which sometimes works slowly, other times dramatically quickly. Given that consensus by itself means nothing in the face of such facts, it seems to me that consensus is just another manifestation of herd-like thinking as illustrated by Mackay."


Now for the 97% concensus:

"97 Articles Refuting The '97% Consensus' on global warming"
"The 97% “consensus” study, Cook et al. (2013) has been thoroughly refuted in scholarly peer-reviewed journals, by major news media, public policy organizations and think tanks, highly credentialed scientists and extensively in the climate blogosphere. The shoddy methodology of Cook’s study has been shown to be so fatally flawed that well known climate scientists have publicly spoken out against it, “The ‘97% consensus’ article is poorly conceived, poorly designed and poorly executed. It obscures the complexities of the climate issue and it is a sign of the desperately poor level of public and policy debate in this country [UK] that the energy minister should cite it.”
" – Mike Hulme, Ph.D. Professor of Climate Change, University of East Anglia (UEA)"

There are 96 other articles about the 97% concensus paper, but the one below tells the tale pretty well:

"Cooks '97% consensus' disproven by a new peer reviewed paper showing major math errors"
12 years ago
Anthony Watts

"UPDATE: While this paper (a rebuttal) has been accepted, another paper by Cook and Nuccitelli has been flat out rejected by the journal Earth System Dynamics. See update below. – Anthony"

“0.3% climate consensus, not 97.1%”

"PRESS RELEASE – September 3rd, 2013"

"A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cº global warming since 1950.

A tweet in President Obama’s name had assumed that the earlier, flawed paper, by John Cook and others, showed 97% endorsement of the notion that climate change is dangerous:

“Ninety-seven percent of scientists agree: #climate change is real, man-made and dangerous.” [Emphasis added][by Watts]

The new paper by the leading climatologist Dr David Legates and his colleagues, published in the respected Science and Education journal, now in its 21st year of publication, reveals that Cook had not considered whether scientists and their published papers had said climate change was “dangerous”.

The consensus Cook considered was the standard definition: that Man had caused most post-1950 warming. Even on this weaker definition the true consensus among published scientific papers is now demonstrated to be not 97.1%, as Cook had claimed, but only 0.3%.

Only 41 out of the 11,944 published climate papers Cook examined explicitly stated that Man caused most of the warming since 1950. Cook himself had flagged just 64 papers as explicitly supporting that consensus, but 23 of the 64 had not in fact supported it.

This shock result comes scant weeks before the United Nations’ climate panel, the IPCC, issues its fifth five-yearly climate assessment, claiming “95% confidence” in the imagined – and, as the new paper shows, imaginary – consensus.

Climate Consensus and ‘Misinformation’: a Rejoinder to ‘Agnotology, Scientific Consensus, and the Teaching and Learning of Climate Change’ decisively rejects suggestions by Cook and others that those who say few scientists explicitly support the supposedly near-unanimous climate consensus are misinforming and misleading the public.

Dr Legates said: “It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%.

“It is still more astonishing that the IPCC should claim 95% certainty about the climate consensus when so small a fraction of published papers explicitly endorse the consensus as the IPCC defines it.”

Dr Willie Soon, a distinguished solar physicist, quoted the late scientist-author Michael Crichton, who had said: “If it’s science, it isn’t consensus; if it’s consensus, it isn’t science.” He added: “There has been no global warming for almost 17 years. None of the ‘consensus’ computer models predicted that.”

Dr William Briggs, “Statistician to the Stars”, said: “In any survey such as Cook’s, it is essential to define the survey question very clearly. Yet Cook used three distinct definitions of climate consensus interchangeably. Also, he arbitrarily excluded about 8000 of the 12,000 papers in his sample on the unacceptable ground that they had expressed no opinion on the climate consensus. These artifices let him reach the unjustifiable conclusion that there was a 97.1% consensus when there was not.

“In fact, Cook’s paper provides the clearest available statistical evidence that there is scarcely any explicit support among scientists for the consensus that the IPCC, politicians, bureaucrats, academics and the media have so long and so falsely proclaimed. That was not the outcome Cook had hoped for, and it was not the outcome he had stated in his paper, but it was the outcome he had really found.”

Christopher Monckton of Brenchley, an expert reviewer for the IPCC’s imminent Fifth Assessment Report, who found the errors in Cook’s data, said: “It may be that more than 0.3% of climate scientists think Man caused at least half the warming since 1950. But only 0.3% of almost 12,000 published papers say so explicitly. Cook had not considered how many papers merely implied that. No doubt many scientists consider it possible, as we do, that Man caused some warming, but not most warming.
“It is unscientific to assume that most scientists believe what they have neither said nor written.”"

[End of Watts press release]


Here is another of the 97 papers:

"A psychologist's scathing review of John Cook's '97% consensus' nonsensus paper"
11 years ago
Anthony Watts

"Psychologist José Duarte writes: The Cook et al. (2013) 97% paper included a bunch of psychology studies, marketing papers, and surveys of the general public as scientific endorsement of anthropogenic climate change."

'Let’s go ahead and walk through that sentence again. The Cook et al 97% paper included a bunch of psychology studies, marketing papers, and surveys of the general public as scientific endorsement of anthropogenic climate change. I only spent ten minutes with their database — there will be more such papers for those who search. I’m not willing to spend a lot of time with their data, for reasons I detail further down."

"This paper is vacated, as a scientific product, given that it included psychology papers, and also given that it twice lied about its method (claiming not to count social science papers, and claiming to use independent raters), and the professed cheating by the raters. It was essentially voided by its invalid method of using partisan and unqualified political activists to subjectively rate climate science abstracts on the issue on which their activism centers — a stunning and unprecedented method. I’m awaiting word on retraction from the journal, but I think we already know that this paper is vacated. It doesn’t represent knowledge of the consensus."

"I want to note here that the authors are still misrepresenting their 97% figure as consisting of “climate papers”. For an upcoming event, Cook claims “They found that among relevant climate papers, 97% endorsed the consensus that humans were causing global warming.” Clearly, this is false. There is no way we’ll be able to call the above papers “relevant climate papers”. Don’t let these people get away with such behavior — call them out on it. Ask them how psychology papers can be “relevant climate papers”, raise your hand at events, notify journalists, etc. Make them defend, explicitly, what they did. Hopefully, it will be retracted soon. But until then, make them defend what they did. For one thing, Cook should now have to disclose how many psychology and other irrelevant papers were included. In a scenario where retraction wasn’t justified, they would have to rewrite the paper. In this case, the false statements, fraud, and absurd method mandate retraction, and some sort of penance."


This article sums the 97 articles up pretty well:

May 01, 2015 | APPEARED IN THE FINANCIAL POST

"Putting the 'con' in consensus; Not only is there no 97 per cent consensus among climate scientists, many misunderstand core issues"

By: Ross McKitrick, Professor of Economics, University of Guelph

The most highly cited paper supposedly found 97 per cent of published scientific studies support man-made global warming. But in addition to poor survey methodology, that tabulation is often misrepresented. Most papers (66 per cent) actually took no position. Of the remaining 34 per cent, 33 per cent supported at least a weak human contribution to global warming. So divide 33 by 34 and you get 97 per cent, but this is unremarkable since the 33 per cent includes many papers that critique key elements of the IPCC position.

Two recent surveys shed more light on what atmospheric scientists actually think. Bear in mind that on a topic as complex as climate change, a survey is hardly a reliable guide to scientific truth, but if you want to know how many people agree with your view, a survey is the only way to find out.

In 2012 the American Meteorological Society (AMS) surveyed its 7,000 members, receiving 1,862 responses. Of those, only 52% said they think global warming over the 20th century has happened and is mostly man-made (the IPCC position). The remaining 48% either think it happened but natural causes explain at least half of it, or it didn’t happen, or they don’t know. Furthermore, 53% agree that there is conflict among AMS members on the question.

So no sign of a 97% consensus. Not only do about half reject the IPCC conclusion, more than half acknowledge that their profession is split on the issue.
The Netherlands Environmental Agency recently published a survey of international climate experts. 6550 questionnaires were sent out, and 1868 responses were received, a similar sample and response rate to the AMS survey. In this case the questions referred only to the post-1950 period. 66% agreed with the IPCC that global warming has happened and humans are mostly responsible. The rest either don’t know or think human influence was not dominant. So again, no 97% consensus behind the IPCC.

But the Dutch survey is even more interesting because of the questions it raises about the level of knowledge of the respondents. Although all were described as “climate experts,” a large fraction only work in connected fields such as policy analysis, health and engineering, and may not follow the primary physical science literature.

Regarding the recent slowdown in warming, here is what the IPCC said: “The observed global mean surface temperature (GMST) has shown a much smaller increasing linear trend over the past 15 years than over the past 30 to 60 years.” Yet 46 per cent of the Dutch survey respondents - nearly half - believe the warming trend has stayed the same or increased. And only 25 per cent agreed that global warming has been less than projected over the past 15 to 20 years, even though the IPCC reported that 111 out of 114 model projections overestimated warming since 1998.

Three quarters of respondents disagreed or strongly disagreed with the statement “Climate is chaotic and cannot be predicted.” Here is what the IPCC said in its 2003 report: “In climate research and modelling, we should recognize that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”

Looking into further detail there are other interesting ways in which the socalled experts are unaware of unresolved discrepancies between models and observations regarding issues like warming in the tropical troposphere and overall climate sensitivity.

What can we take away from all this? First, lots of people get called “climate experts” and contribute to the appearance of consensus, without necessarily being knowledgeable about core issues. A consensus among the misinformed is not worth much.

Second, it is obvious that the “97%” mantra is untrue. The underlying issues are so complex it is ludicrous to expect unanimity. The near 50/50 split among AMS members on the role of greenhouse gases is a much more accurate picture of the situation. The phoney claim of 97% consensus is mere political rhetoric aimed at stifling debate and intimidating people into silence.

Link to CLOUD experiment at CERN (home of the Large Hadron Collider)
To understand the importance of this experiment, one must realize the lack of ability by current climate modeling to account for cloud cover in climate change or predict how many clouds there are or will be. Also, real world temperature data do not support their predictions. Try and get raw data if you don't believe me. They don't sarcastically call our current age "Adjustocene" for no reason. Warmists are constantly fiddling with (adjusting) real world data to get it to fit their models

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_experiment

Remember, I'm not trying to prove or disprove CAGW. I am only saying it is not only religious people questioning it or even mainly religious people. Many serious scientists do and the notion that an overwhelming consensus of them believe in CAGW doesn't withstand scrutiny.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 03, 2025 02:53AM

I never suggested science is done by consensus. What I said was that when there is a consensus, the burden to disprove it is incumbent upon he who would challenge that consensus. My standard is not one of science but one of logic.

Second, I never endorsed anyone's statement of consensus, let alone Cook's. But your entire argument is based on what he claimed; in fact, that's your only argument insofar as your articles mention him 18 times. In that sense, he's a straw man.

That is particularly true given that Cook's apparently dubious article was published in 2013. It follows that the reviews of his work have nothing to do with science that has been conducted since, nor do they vitiate the consensus that prevails today on the basis of that more recent analysis.

You are correct that consensus is not a scientific term. So if you want to challenge today's situation and can do so effectively, I'm all ears. But proving that Cook was wrong in his description of the situation more than 12 years ago (allowing for the delay between the submission of his work and its publication) does not alone meet that burden.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2025 02:55AM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 04, 2025 04:16PM

"I never suggested science is done by consensus. What I said was that when there is a consensus, the burden to disprove it is incumbent upon he who would challenge that consensus. My standard is not one of science but one of logic."

COMMENT: There is no burden of proof (or disproof) in science or otherwise as applied to science by logic! Specifically, consider your statement "When there is a consensus, the burden to disprove it is incumbent upon he who would challenge that consensus." Such a statement, assigning a burden to disprove something simply out of consensus opinion, is strictly a matter of your own fiat, not science, and most certainly not logic. There is no logical inference from consensus to burden of proof, or disproof.

Consider the consensus (in America) that there is a God. Now does that consensus alone assign to the atheist, as a matter of logic, a 'burden to disprove' it? Of course not!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 04, 2025 07:09PM

My God, here we go again.


> COMMENT: There is no burden of proof (or disproof)
> in science or otherwise as applied to science by
> logic!

I Just said that. I said that consensus has no bearing on science.


----------------
Specifically, consider your statement
> "When there is a consensus, the burden to disprove
> it is incumbent upon he who would challenge that
> consensus."

Is your position that I must prove that the earth is not flat? That the sun rises in the east? Those propositions are accepted by consensus. But in your usual nihilism you suggest that even the most obvious propositions must be proved to any tin-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist I encounter.

That's just stupid.


-------------
> Such a statement, assigning a burden
> to disprove something simply out of consensus
> opinion, is strictly a matter of your own fiat,
> not science, and most certainly not logic. There
> is no logical inference from consensus to burden
> of proof, or disproof.

LOL. Is it logical to believe I must disprove the madman's pet conspiracy?


-------------
> Consider the consensus (in America) that there is
> a God. Now does that consensus alone assign to
> the atheist, as a matter of logic, a 'burden to
> disprove' it? Of course not!

As I have stated many times, I do not think the concept of God is falsifiable because God, like your beloved consciousness and free will, or bradley's loony otherworld interface, is indefinite: and you cannot prove or disprove a concept that keeps slipping away like so much jello. So I don't even reach the point where a burden of proof arises.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 05, 2025 12:16PM

My God, here we go again.

COMMENT: It is not my fault you continually misrepresent both science and logic. I am not motivated to debate you or even educate you. I am motivated to educate those who read your posts and might still think (God knows why) that you have credibility in such matters.
_______________________________

> COMMENT: There is no burden of proof (or disproof)
> in science or otherwise as applied to science by
> logic!

I Just said that. I said that consensus has no bearing on science.

COMMENT: When you assign a 'burden of proof' in science based upon consensus, it is manifestly inconsistent to then claim that "consensus has no bearing on science." Very simple logic! You cannot have it both ways.
____________________________

Is your position that I must prove that the earth is not flat? That the sun rises in the east? Those propositions are accepted by consensus. But in your usual nihilism you suggest that even the most obvious propositions must be proved to any tin-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist I encounter.

That's just stupid.

COMMENT: Yes, YOUR COMMENT IS JUST STUPID. Repeat: There is no burden of proof in science-- one way or the other. Now, look at all of your science textbooks (if indeed you have any). I have about 30 such college level textbooks in multiple scientific disciplines. Now check the indexes from these books and find "burden of proof." None of them will have such an entry. As such, it is safe to say that "burden of proof" is not part of science proper. It is just a common rhetorical device that is often applied to science improperly. (like Occam's razor!)
_______________________________

> Such a statement, assigning a burden
> to disprove something simply out of consensus
> opinion, is strictly a matter of your own fiat,
> not science, and most certainly not logic. There
> is no logical inference from consensus to burden
> of proof, or disproof.

LOL. Is it logical to believe I must disprove the madman's pet conspiracy?

COMMENT: You should stop laughing and start listening. Again, there is NO BURDEN OF PROOF (OR DISPROOF) IN SCIENCE. That means by definition you do not have to prove or disprove anything. Science does not force "burdens of proof" on people.
______________________________

> Consider the consensus (in America) that there is
> a God. Now does that consensus alone assign to
> the atheist, as a matter of logic, a 'burden to
> disprove' it? Of course not!

As I have stated many times, I do not think the concept of God is falsifiable because God, like your beloved consciousness and free will, or bradley's loony otherworld interface, is indefinite: and you cannot prove or disprove a concept that keeps slipping away like so much jello. So I don't even reach the point where a burden of proof arises.

COMMENT: Can you ever stop missing the point! Consensus simply doesn't matter when it comes to proof, and therefore it doesn't matter when it comes to any "burden of proof," assuming there was such a thing (outside of law). One may *feel* from time to time that it *should* apply, but that is just an intuition to be rhetorically applied, not a scientific mandate.
_____________________________

Finally, "burden of proof" is a legal term. It applies to which party has the burden to prove some question of fact. This is not declared by fiat by judges, it is baked into the law. There is no burden of proof baked into science. There is no burden of proof "fiat" by one or more scientists, or some academy of science, as authority for its application to science. Again, it is invoked only as a rhetorical, intuitive, claim, often by both sides of an issue, claiming such a burden for the other.

I hope this helps the readers of this post, even though from past experience I doubt it will help you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Scooby Doo ( )
Date: March 05, 2025 04:18PM

Henry Bemis - Thank you for directly addressing the "BURDEN OF PROOF" issue as you did. Much appreciated. What you posted was well put.

Bonus points given for not using big academia words to show how educated you are....

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 04, 2025 02:55PM

"Two recent surveys shed more light on what atmospheric scientists actually think. Bear in mind that on a topic as complex as climate change, a survey is hardly a reliable guide to scientific truth, but if you want to know how many people agree with your view, a survey is the only way to find out."

COMMENT: Obviously, what is important for public policy is not the nuances of scientific thought about the multiple combined effects of complex factors related to climate change. It is not even how predictable, or unpredictable, climate change might be. The question (again for public policy consideration) is as follows:

Whether there is a *reasonable* consensus among climate scientists studying the issue that human activity *might* be significantly affecting climate change, such as to *potentially* cause an adverse, if not catastrophic, climate outcome; that is, that significant adverse climate effects *could* occur with significant statistical probability as a result of human activity.

My guess is that a high percentage of climate scientists would agree with that statement, even if differing as to how "could" translates into a statistically significant probability.

Public policy is based upon reasonable probabilities and likelihoods, not scientific certainty. This is lost in your narrative.
________________________________________

"Remember, I'm not trying to prove or disprove CAGW. I am only saying it is not only religious people questioning it or even mainly religious people. Many serious scientists do and the notion that an overwhelming consensus of them believe in CAGW doesn't withstand scrutiny."

COMMENT: So, if not an "over-whelming" consensus, what is the consensus? 70%? 50%? 30%. At what point are we justified in not acting because the consensus is too low, or uncertain? Especially considering the potential dangers posed if even a minority are correct? Clearly, we are well above such consensus to justify alarm and immediate social action.

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Posted by: denier ( )
Date: March 04, 2025 02:58PM

that's sounds orwellian

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