I left the church over women's issues. When I suggested to the missionaries that I would be leaving due to what I perceived (rightly) as the inequality of women in the church, they were literally shocked. They are seriously so naive! When I said that I wasn't willing to stay home and raise babies young just because somebody tells me that's my God-given duty, they actually had no idea what to say. "Well, I don't think we teach that...I've never read that" and "Did you hear the last General Conference talk about sisters in the church?" were the responses. I brought up polygamy and that scared them to death, especially when I challenged their ridiculous excuse that "Lots of men died and the women needed protection, so they HAD to marry them" with quotes from the Journal of Discourses (after they accused me of reading "anti-Mormon propaganda).

Working with the Young Women and reading what they said in Personal Progress was the catalyst for my leaving...or, I guess, really the final straw. What are others' experiences with women's issues in the church?

with getting married and having a family. It was the natural, acceptable thing to do in those times, and in my circle of friends - all from different religions. It was common in those days to marry out of high school, a couple in my class married in high school and are still married over 50 years later.

It was assumed in those days that a young woman would get married and be a wife and mother. So, naturally, when I was in the position to do so, that is what I did.

Before I converted, I was very active in our local Christian Church and having come from several generations of Christian ministers and missionaries,(mostly in Europe and South America), I had strongly considered becoming a Christian Music Minister which was all a female could do in the church in those days. Except for serving with a husband as missionaries, of course.
I had registered for college, and was planning to attend, when I converted and joined the LDS Church, which changed the course of my life at that point.

I married an RM, lived in UT for some years in BYU married student housing, raised a family in the LDS Church. I'm grateful for the experience.

Education was always stressed for females as well as males in my experience in the LDS Church in UT and in CA when I worked with college students in the CES program, predominately in the 60's to 70's. Many women had degrees when they married. They usually got through college before the men as the men served missions.

Now days, women have a lot more choices than I had both in education and in a career. I think that's great!
Some women don't want to be wives and mothers. Some don't want to do either until they are in their 30's.
I was "college age" when I converted so I missed the M N and Gleaner program all together.

Times have changed greatly. And, I think that's great! I'm all for the rights of women to do anything they choose to do in their life.

People, not just women, should be able to pursue what the best path for them. No one should be forced into a role that doesn't fit.

Me, I don't want to be a mother nor a typical wife. For the women that choose that, I'm happy for them, but I'm just not cut out for that type of life. It is ironic, however, that my current job entails that very thing, lol (I'm a nanny.)

You say so many good thigns about the church are you sure a life here away from it is right for you?

I think one has to have lived in that era to totally understand it on a personal basis.

The LDS Church was, from what I see today, very, very different as far as activities, and attitudes. We had lots of FUN activities in those days. But those programs are all gone now. It was not nearly as strict about small things then. For instance, many of us had our ears pierced twice and nobody said a thing. Now it's a big NO NO. I could list a bunch of things like that.

Mormonism worked fine for me for a long time. I have no regrets.

How is "Recovery" from Mormonism even relevant to you?

I don't feel the need for recovery either, but I like the board because there are a lot of people here with siilar interests to mine. aybe SusieQ feels the same. We all have our own reasons for being here. As far as marriage, when I grew up and came of age, many girls married right out of high school and a lot of them weren't Mormon either. Times were different and I was the odd one because I had no interest in getting married out of high school or while I was in college.

I changed my mind about my beliefs in Mormonism and left the LDS Church which I define as an Exit Process from Mormonism.

I have not ever had any need to "recovery" from anything but maybe ...the flu and other physical problems.

It's important for me, in my process to show the same respect and politeness and kindness to all human beings, regardless of their religious beliefs. I think that is part of what it means, to me anyhow, to respect our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
A quote I like: "Never look down on someone unless you are helping them up."

One reason I post here: to pay it forward, and to be a voice of reason and decency and to support those that want to take their power back, and own it and be the captain of their own lives and live them as they choose.

I am very supportive of those that can make the religious differences non-issues and maintain decent relationships with family and friends regardless of their religious differences.

I'm very supportive of welcoming that wide world of ideas and being willing to step outside of the fear of change, and think differently about anything and everything.

I am supportive of keeping my relationships with my LDS friends and relatives (particularly my husband of nearly 49 years) and do it in a positive manner.

I would not think of using vulgarity, nastiness, putting others down with vile language, pejoratives etc, anymore than I would use that kind of attitude toward myself.
I am reminded of the old statement that when we point our finger at one, we still have four more pointing back out ourselves.

I am supportive of making major changes in our lives and doing it without sabotaging our own peace of mind and freedom.

I will always present those kinds of ideas and many others like it to anyone who is leaving the LDS Church and creating a new World View for themselves.

I no longer post very much anymore, mostly because of time constraints and like you, I have no need of "recovery" from Mormonism, but I still like to browse and see what others have to contribute.

In the past, I have noticed that, for reasons that elude me, you have been targetted by mean spirited people and I feel bad I did not jump in and defend you at the time. I promised myself that if this were to happen again that I would jump in and defend your most excellent point of vue! Well, it just happened, but I can see that you did a formidable job at defending yourself better than I could have done.

I too, have wonderful relatives and good friends who are TBM and have not lossed their humanity and real goodness. I love them and wish to always be close to them. Some of them are even related or married to GAs! And a small few are GAs themselves!

Great wisdom SusieQ#1!

And for your support!

I too have wonderful, life long relationships with my Mormon friends and relatives. I think it just might be true that we reap what we sew. I think you may take the same attitude that I do: they are people just like me and if I treat everyone the way I want to be treated, I'll have long-time, great relationships! I'm all for that! :-)

Mormons are not the enemy. The LDS Church is not an enemy either. If anyone understands Mormonism, it's me as I lived it as a convert for decades. They are people just like me. They can choose their beliefs just like I can. And I think that's a sacred right, actually!

It's a wonderful life of freedom to have no regrets. Making peace with all of my life has no room for any of that kind of thinking.
And, that is where real freedom lies -- with a peaceful, grateful attitude.
It works for me!

The issue got a lot of play in the 1980s, when the church organized to fight the Equal Rights Amendment much as they did with gay marriage. It seems like it has just faded from sight since then with Mormons.

My TBM sisters are convinced that they church is great for women, that they have a full role, half the control, and want for nothing. The men always think of them first, no problem. It just drops my jaw. I don't know how to talk to people who think like that.

"Inequality of women" came as a surprise to the mishies? Uh, golly gee, were they aware that only people with external genetalia can have the priesthood, hence power in Kolobianism?

Hello, people!!

I'm female and I think men have a raw deal in mormonism, too.

I have many friends and acquaintances who are mormon and hate the idea of having to work. Many of them have complained to me--even after their kids are raised and the situation is such financially that it would be a GOOD IDEA for the women to work. Some of these women resent their husbands if they aren't living in the lap of luxury as a SAHM.

I thought that is what I wanted, but after working for several years before I got married, I really missed the working world and having my own paycheck and went out looking for a job behind my husband's back. When he found out, he helped me get on where he worked and I worked when he could watch the kids a few evenings a week. Then after he left, it became a necessity as a single mother.

BUT I think men have a really crappy deal in the mormon church. AND most would not want to live polygamy.

She said that she has never met another LDS woman that felt that way. The church values women...just like mother Eve and Emma Smith (puke). Anyhoo... I told her that a lot of women are annoyed with the 2nd class citizen status. She called me a liar.

Funny thing... when I tell nevermos that I left the church because of the way the mormons treat the women, they are all so supportive and understanding...seems they 'get' how I feel.

I don't know about anyone else but I was shocked and horrified when I read michael quinn's Mormon Heirarchy:Ext of power and got to the chapter about the Equal Rights Amendment. The church did everything in its power to make sure the ERA failed to pass. Now when I hear a church leader talking about how much they respect women, I want to vomit

A huge reason why I left the church. Bishop had dh on such a pedestal,and I was the one that was supposed to shut my mouth and do what I was told.

They put them on a pedestal instead.

And tell them to stay there.


I graduated from High school in the 80s and at that time, the women of the church were encouraged to get a college education, but were ALSO expected to put marriage and family as the priority. Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk specificially to the women of the church when I was at BYU, telling us not to put anything ahead of having children, especially not finishing school or having a career.

He glorified the role of women (see the pedestal?) in the home: cooking, ironing, cleaning, making a haven for all, as if it was the highest thing a woman could ever aspire to. As if that would be the end all, be all of every woman. [Unlike men, who can choose a career to suit their skills and interests AND have a family and a perfect home-because the woman is going to give up every ambition to serve others].

He encouraged us all to come home from the [insert traditional low-paying female jobs here, because apparently he didn't get the memo that women were capable of professional level jobs] and be a wife and mother. He also warned that many divorces can be traced back to the day when the wife took a job outside the home.

That talk caused a stir at BYU, especially among women at the law school (A guy I knew told me about it). For some reason, it kinda pissed them off.

But since that time, that talk and the attitudes it perpetuated have been a source of chronic guilt for LDS women that choose to work outside the home.

He pretty much communicated the message that working women are selfish and materialistic and they threaten the family.

CLEARLY, the church wants women at home. And most women will WANT to be wives and mothers in their lives. But some women have financial needs, or personal goals they want to pursue.

They should be able to do it without guilt and without judgement from others.

I've been out for over 10 years now. Can anyone tell me if things have changed?

My wife has been teaching school for a few years now. She absolutely loves it. It's been a huge boost to her self esteem to succeed in something and to be recognized for a job well done.

I often hear her say things that reveal her inner guilt. "At least I'm at the school with my kids." "I always loved being home with my kids and would do it again". "I didn't start working until my youngest was in school."

Yeah. Being called worldly and selfish for pursuing my law degree wasn't exactly empowering. Women are to be seen not heard.

It got old fast.

When I was listening to the missionary discussions I had a few red flag moments regarding women in the Church but the missionaries of course were able to show me otherwise. Over many years I tried to be the ideal lds woman until I came to accept I really was not.

I would hear sometimes that women were not equal at Church and that women did not hold true leadership positions at Church, but I dismissed that and defended the Church. I truly believed we were equal with different roles. And I was happy.

It was when I served as RS President with a wonderful yet very faithful and obedient bishop and other priesthood holders in a new suburban stake that I came to realize that women are indeed second class citizens in the Church. There were things said, done or heard that would bring a memory from the past when I had had a red flag moment or something that was just not right, but with insider's info it would become an "I knew it" moments. Those experiences combined with information and personal stories of women who have left the Church or have been excommunicated have convinced me that women are NOT equal in the Church and women indeed have no real say in decision making at the ward or stake level, and I would presume that it goes all the way to the top. We are assured we do in a loving condescending way, but we don't.

I guess the way you view it depends on where you stand in your 'testimony' or 'untestimony' of the Church.

One can be happy in the Church but it doesn't change the fact that we are not equal. That's how I feel now.

D