I've always hated the mormon use of the word "Even" when talking about Christ of a prophet. Example, "Our lord and savior, even Jesus Christ".

I wondered where that started. I still don't know, but Monson was doing it in the 60's.

Here's a Quote from a statement about the correlation department.

Correlation was called “The Battle Plan,” and on the opening pages rested a series of quotations from Priesthood leaders. First was a statement by Apostle Thomas S. Monson: “The battle plan whereby we fight to save the souls of men is not our own. It was provided by our leader, even President David O. McKay, by the inspiration and revelation of the Lord.

So Monson was doing the "Even" thing back in the 60's. I wonder if he's the one who started it.

I didn't read past the first one, the end of it said, "by the inspiration and revelation of the Lord. YES I SPEAK OF THAT PLAN WHICH WILL BRING US VICTORY; EVEN THE CORRELATION PROGRAM OF THE CHURCH.”

That part was supposed to be exactly what followed the comma after McKay. He managed to get two "Even's" out of one comment.

I remember asking my mission president what was with the misplaced use of the word "even" in the 1980s. I had seen it a lot in quotes in the institute study manuals.

I think they use it as an intensifier. Though why they would feel the need is anyone's guess.

Maybe it makes them feel special?

I think EVEN David O. McKay used it. Someone ought to look at some old conference talks and figure it out. Even someone with a poor gag reflex.

"Mine Errand from the Lord"?? Wouldn't "My" be more simple?
I suppose he's trying to sound holy while at the same time he's soaking the morgbots for $34.95. Go get'em Boyd and spread your hate.

ST

stationarytraveler Wrote:
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> "Mine Errand from the Lord"?? Wouldn't "My" be
> more simple?
> I suppose he's trying to sound holy while at the
> same time he's soaking the morgbots for $34.95. Go
> get'em Boyd and spread your hate.
>
> ST

In old-timey English, it was common to use "mine" (rather than "my) in front of nouns and adjectives that began with vowels--as in "mine own true love," etc.

So Monson was using it in the sixties, and was fond enough of it to use it twice in one sentence.

If anyone runs into its use prior to the sixties, let us know. It would be kind of fun if this could be hung on Monson, but he might have been the new guy in the sixties trying to copy the speech of someone higher up.

on another thread:

---reminds me of the joseph smith failed prophecy:
"the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years" ---

I don't have time to look it up, but you could check that out. Gots ye olde EVEN whereupon it should nay be.

I'm not EVEN going to loan you $20 so you can go out and be late for muster tomorrow.

Mormonism has it's own religious, cultural language or Mormonese, as some called it.

I noticed these kinds of words and phrases when I converted and soon, I was using them also.

Ending a prayer, or a talk "in the name of Jesus Christ" is one of the common phrases that is unique to Mormonism.
The word: "even" as part of a phrase, is common also.

Also, not using some words that are used in other religious beliefs is common to Mormonism. One is the lack of the use of a personal Jesus as a term. It's proper in their lexicon to say: Jesus Christ or The Christ, etc. But not the name alone.

How to say a correct, proper prayer is defined by many religions including Mormonism. As a convert, I needed to learn their proper prayer form, which I did.
Always address deity as: Heavenly Father, for instance.
Use words such as: thee and thou to show proper respect, and so on.

The phrasing is unique, including where the members put their pauses in their talks and prayers also.

I learned to recognize the ecclesiastical tone, or the "GA Drone"! :-)
That is very different from what I had grown up hearing also.

All of this was very different and new to me. There is much more, that I have probably forgotten as I have not engaged in Mormonese for years, now! :-)

I just accept it as part of their religious traditions, like other religions which are often very different.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
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>
> Use words such as: thee and thou to show proper
> respect, and so on.

I learned that "thee" and "thou" are in fact, the FAMILIAR (singular) forms of the pronoun "you" (think "tu" vs. "usted" in Spanish and "tu" vs. "vous" in French), and denote intimacy rather than respect-for-a-higher-up. To our modern ears, they sound all fancy-schmancy, when they're really just archaic.

I brought this up when the mishies were trying to teach me the "proper form of prayer." I commented that it was cozy, addressing HF in the familiar, older-English "thee" and "thou" form. Kind of like Jesus calling HF "Abba."

I was told in no uncertain terms that no, these words were meant to show RESPECT, not INTIMACY. (This is bull-puckey, BTW; those words are precisely equivalent to "tu" and "du" and similar words in other languages.)

Well then, why not sound like old-timey Quakers, and go so far as addressing ALL p-hood holders with "thee" and "thou?" Just to show respect, you know.

That could be hilarious. Just think of all the people who can't even keep it straight when they end Sacrament Meeting talks with "in the name of thy son, JC."

It has potential.

but I think that the use of the word "even" comes from the BOM. I seem to recall that "even" is used in that same manner, a strange form of emphasis, throughout the BOM.

"And it came to pass that there was much wickedness and debauchery and whoredoms throughout the kingdom, even unto the fifth generation."

I just made that up, but maybe someone could do a word search on the BOM and see if it shows up there. Copying the speech mode of former church leaders is a common method in the church to make yourself sound more spiritual. There is that GA tone of voice that many bishops, stake presidents, and mormon PHD climbers use. It never sounded spiritual to me, it just put me to sleep - I thought it was some form of spiritual hypnosis.

D&C 88
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you who have assembled yourselves together to receive his will concerning you:
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the dbook of the names of the sanctified, EVEN them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, EVEN upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, EVEN the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, EVEN the glory of the celestial kingdom;

D&C 124
16 Again, let my servant John C. Bennett help you in your labor in sending my word to the kings and people of the earth, and stand by you, EVEN you my servant Joseph Smith, in the hour of affliction; and his reward shall not fail if he receive counsel.

107 Let him assist my servant Joseph, and also let my servant William Law assist my servant Joseph, in making a solemn proclamation unto the kings of the earth, EVEN as I have before said unto you.
108 If my servant Sidney will do my will, let him not remove his family unto the eastern lands, but let him change their habitation, EVEN as I have said.
109 Behold, it is not my will that he shall seek to find safety and refuge out of the city which I have appointed unto you, EVEN the city of Nauvoo.


It's everywhere. Monson is just trying to sound like the scriptures.

Makurosu Wrote:
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>
> It's everywhere. Monson is just trying to sound
> like the scriptures.


Good point. Now that he's the big guy, it'll probably get worse.

Moroni says it to Joseph Smith in the Hill Cumorah Pageant.
He appears at the top of the hill to a kneeling Joseph Smith and says: "Behold. It is I, even Moroni. Keeper of the sacred record...etc...

Off Broadway Wrote:
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> Moroni says it to Joseph Smith in the Hill Cumorah
> Pageant.
> He appears at the top of the hill to a kneeling
> Joseph Smith and says: "Behold. It is I, even
> Moroni. Keeper of the sacred record...etc...

Sounds better than "... I, odd Moroni..."

Unfortunately Monson didn't start it. Of all the scriptures this is the break down:

Old Testament 0
New Testament 1
Book of Mormon 1
Doctrine and Covenants 13
Book of Moses 2

It may have originated and been plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible:

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (1 John 5:6)

It was first used in mormonism when it was copied out of context into the BoM:

And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the promise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ. (Ether 12:22)

It is then used twice in the Book of Moses and extensively within D&C. 6 out of the 13 from D&C use the formula "even" "Jesus Christ" and "amen" in close proximity which is often how it's used in mormonism especially at the end of prayers or talks.

The word "even" is excluded from a lot of Bibles in 1 John 5:6 meaning it was probably only included in some versions to make sense of that verse in English. What happened is it was then copied out of context into the mormon scriptures especially D&C which is where the current usage really comes from.

In the Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion (1868) (Stephen Post Collection, Univ. Utah), an unpublished collection of Sidney Rigdon's late-period revelations, Rigdon often used the word "even".

Here are some examples:

Section 6: "I the Lord your Redeemer say unto you that it is my will & requirement that you should devote all your energies in studying my word which I caused to come forth through my servant Joseph Smith even the book of Mormon & Doctrine & covenants"

Section 6:"I who speak unto you even your Redeemer intended to lead the tribe of Jacob not only to final deliverance but to endless glory."

Section 18: "You are appointed the head of a great mission even that of prepareing the way for the settlement of the priesthood of Zion"

Section 27 It was concerning the kingdom of heaven which was to appear in the last times even as spoken of by Daniel the prophet"

Section 28: "She who was the mother according to the flesh of
him who speaketh to you even Jesus Christ the Savior
of the world. And again saith the Lord I have given you
another son in the truth even Stephen who is rightly named
for he is of the lineage of Stephen who was the first martyr
for the truths sake"

Section 45: "Hear ye, hear ye O all ye children of Zion who have and are now coming forth before the Lord of the whole earth & who are uniting yourselves together before me saith the Lord of Sabaoth to be numbered with the children of the house of the Lord, even my Zion,...

Section 45: "In order that you may reach the object of your faith even the salvation of your souls and make Zion a house of eternal blessing to your souls there are certain prominent duties which never can be dispensed with."

Section 57: "Therefore let them council together that they also may approve themselves unto the Lord their God their Redeemer even the Holy one of Israel."

Section 69: "But my servant is not of Jesse, nor of Judah,
but of another tribe even Ephraim"

Once again, old Sidney Rigdon. Amazing.

Rigdon likely used the word "even" because he wanted to imitate the style of writing found in the King James Bible. Clauses that begin with "even" are found in the King James Bible. For example, Daniel 8:15 reads: "And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man".

Rigdon actually about his familiarity with Biblical writing styles, and claimed that it helped him to recognize the Book of Mormon as a the word of God. In 1868, he described his reaction to the Book of Mormon when the published version was first presented to him in 1830 by Cowdery and Pratt (Rigdon is speaking in the 1st person as God about himself):

“He [Rigdon] was then unlearned & I the Lord myself became his teacher, and assisted him to understand all things till he became the head of the literary world. There was no man living so well qualified to judge of the divine authenticity of the book of Mormon as he was. His knowledge of the Lords manner of writing was such as enabled him to detect it when he saw it, & thus it was that he received the book of Mormon when I the Lord sent it to him.”

This scripture is found in Section 37 of The Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion (1868).

Of course for those of us who believe that Rigdon wrote much of the Book of Mormon, it's no big surprise that he would have been familiar with the "Lord's manner of writing".

Here is what I meant to say in paragraph 2 of the above post:

"Rigdon actually BRAGGED about his familiarity with Biblical writing styles, and claimed that it helped him to recognize the Book of Mormon as a the word of God. In 1868, he described his reaction to the Book of Mormon when the published version was first presented to him in 1830 by Cowdery and Pratt (Rigdon is speaking in the 1st person as God about himself):"

(I do wish there was some way to edit posts in this new forum)

I wonder if it shows up in other 19th century preachers sermons, like Campbell.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

It annoys me to death when people laugh at Monson's "humor" during conference. The last time I checked an 85 year-old-man making boring jokes isn't funny.

You just aren't listening with spiritual ears...

Yeah, you need to wiggle your spiritual ears to get the humor.

Okay, so I just had to do this. I used the selection from D&C provided by CraigC and plugged it in on the wordle.net site. This site creates beautiful word clouds from text you enter, based on the repetition of words.

Well, the word cloud it created was not only beautiful, but telling.

And now it is on public display, with a tag to RFM!

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/2673500/even_in_the_doctrine_and_covenants

JS used it to sound biblical, and along the lines some GA started using it to sound JS like?

Hanna Barbera's early '60s effeminate lion, Snagglepuss, was well known for using "even" a lot.

Proof at :30 and :45.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4qFxTTi8q0

Heavens to mergatroid...