As a 15 year old unbeliever in TSCC, my parents currently know that I "have questions", have no strong testimony (in reality, I don't have one at all) and have "wavering thoughts". And because the local ward's missionaries need more contacts, my parents have them scheduled to come our home every Wednesday. And to make matters worse, this is a rather rare case of three sister missionaries, all in mid-20s, not the usual fresh-outta-momma's house male duo.

They are currently teaching me lessons about the most basic gospel concepts, which used to be easy for me to listen to and respond as a child, but now simply tear me apart as I lie at just about every question and always give the "safe answers". So I shall ask you, fellow ex-Mormons, how I can convince my parents to get them to stop coming (which probably won't even happen), or advice on how to cope with this. Not only is it simply emotionally stressful and mentally draining, it is simply a waste of time, an hour per week, that I could be using for homework, drawing artwork, practicing the piano, making techno music... etc.

What do you think?

Are they tried to get you to re-activate through hormones?

LOL. Nope, sadly they're not too attractive. Even if they were, it wouldn't change the fact that Joseph Smith raped teenage girls. :U

Here's a way you might get them to go away.

"Thanks for coming to visit with me. I've really gotten to know you three and I think we're all awesome friends.

I know I'm too young to think about this, but since we're obviously connected by the Spirit, would you like to be my polygamist wives in the Celestial Kingdom?"

I don't know if you'd get in trouble or not, but they'd know you didn't need Gospel Basics!

Mmmmph, Jesus good! Argh, devil bad! That's all that "basic gospel concepts" are about. But The Problem with Mormonism is hardly that. It's about being manipulated and lied to, and pushing weird and perverse teachings under the rug so that they're not immediately visible. They will pull them out later in life, and spring them on you when it's inopportune--like when you go to the temple or something.

The only thing that I'd suggest is to bone up on church history, then challenge them. Bone up on the 1853 Mormon Reformation, for instance. Read everything you can about it, how all members had to be re-baptized because Brigham Young was not convinced all were being good. He introduced blood atonement to scare the by-jesus out of them, and sent people around to dispatch those who displayed apostasy. The furor that this created set the stage for the doomed Fancher-Baker Party at Mountain Meadows. The Mormon Reformation is easy as pie to learn about, so you can just start spouting stuff, and if people doubt, tell them to look it up their own damned self.

Study the temple ceremony. All three versions of it are posted on-line. Ask them why the pre-1930 death oaths and pre-1990 death pantomimes were removed, and why you shouldn't be warned of the Law of Consecration beforehand, so you'd be convinced whether or not to go to the temple and promise to give the LDS church all you belongings should they ever ask for them.

I'd steer clear of anything that is actually identifiable as "anti-Mormon," but instead use things like the Journal of Discourses (wherein John Taylor said that black people are on the earth to represent Satan). The JoD is a treasure trove of useful Mormon beliefs, and it's available on-line in searchable form. Your folks and their missionaries will no doubt say that "we don't believe that anymore," at which time you can say that they were billed as "eternal" and "everlasting" principles. If they pull the scissors-rock-paper ploy on you (modern revelation trumps earlier revelation, living prophet trumps dead prophet and so on), you can always just say, "You know, that's just f**king stupid."

I dunno. I'd just say to spend some hours at the computer and bone up, then fight fire with fire. I hope it's good advice. It's all I got.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 06:40PM by cludgie.

Tell them you saw a "bad" movie about a 4 some with 3 chicks. Tell them YOU can't focus on anything else when THEY are around.

I agree with the previous posters. Make sure you have studied up beforehand. One method I inadvertently discovered when I was a teenager was to ask a lot of questions about simple principles. Like what happens to temple sealed families when the husband dies after having a couple kids and the mom remarries and has more kids. Who are the wife and kids sealed to?(the first husband, even the kids that are fathered by the second husband.) That one always just seemed wrong to me. Another one is the concept of God. God is supposed to be perfect. If He is not perfect, He cannot exist. So why would God command the early saints to enter into polygamous marriages, then rescind that commandment? I was always told that it was a higher law and that the world was not ready for it. But wouldn't God, being perfect, already know that? Sure seems like a mistake. Another example would be the Black men being unable to hold the priesthood until the 70's. Why would God allow some of His children to be treated like that? Don't Mormons believe that "men shall be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgressions?" Or Cain's,/ Laman and Lemuel's?

I thought my way out of the Mormon church using simple logic such as this. I still have not read any "anti" literature, nor have I (yet) studied in depth any Mormon history. It is easy enough to point out the inconsistencies using things taught early on. Good luck to you!

“The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 219


“I say, there are men and women that I would advise to go to the Presidency immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their care; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are too deep a dye... I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood... Brethren and sisters, we want you to repent and forsake your sins. And you who have committed sins that cannot be forgiven through baptism, let your blood be shed, and let the smoke ascend, that the incense thereof may come up before God as an atonement for your sins, and that the sinners in Zion may be afraid.”

- Apostle Jebediah M. Grant, 2nd counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 49-51


“I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, ‘We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;’ and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 179, February 18, 1855


“Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them. You would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the Kingdom of God. I would at once do so, in such a case; and under the circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.... There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

“If you want to know what to do with a thief that you may find stealing, I say kill him on the spot, and never suffer him to commit another iniquity. I will prove by my works whether I can mete out justice to such persons, or not. I would consider it just as much my duty to do that, as to baptize a man for the remission of his sins.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 108-109

I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 43

“Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and may be saved and exalted with the God, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, pp. 219-220

“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it [the blood of Christ] can never remit.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 54

“This is loving your neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 220

“If men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants.”

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 375
============
Another of the murders under this dispensation, which Judge Cradlebaugh mentioned as "peculiarly and shockingly prominent," was that of the Aikin party, in the spring of 1857. This party, consisting of six men, started east from San Francisco in May, 1857, and, falling in with a Mormon train, joined them for protection against the Indians. "When they got to a safer neighborhood, the Californians pushed on ahead. Arriving in Kayesville, twenty-five miles north of Salt Lake City, they were at once arrested as federal spies, and their animals (they had an outfit worth in all, about $25,000) were put into the public corral. When their Mormon fellow-travellers arrived, they scouted the idea that the men even knew of an impending "war," and the party were told that they would be sent out of the territory. But before they started, a council, held at the call of a Bishop in Salt Lake City, decided on their death.

Four of the party were attacked in camp by their escort while asleep; two were killed at once, and two who escaped temporarily were shot while, as they supposed, being escorted back to Salt Lake City. The two others were attacked by O. P. Rockwell and some associates near the city; one was killed outright, and the other escaped, wounded, and was shot the next day while under the escort of "Bill" Hickman, and, according to the latter, by Young's order. *


* Brigham's "Destroying Angel," p. 128
.................
Stenhouse relates, as one of the "few notable cases that have properly illustrated the blood atonement doctrine," that one of the wives of an elder who was sent on a mission broke her marriage vows during his absence. On his return, during the height of the "Reformation," she was told that "she could not reach the circle of the gods and goddesses unless her blood was shed," and she consented to accept the punishment. Seating herself, therefore, on her husband's knee, she gave him a last kiss, and he then drew a knife across her throat. "That kind and loving husband still lives near Salt Lake City (1874), and preaches occasionally with great zeal."*


* "Rocky Mountain Saints," p. 470.
--------------------

Hello, first of all I would like to let you know that you are not alone. I am 17 and I am fighting to get out of this church. I basically told my parents that a very bright girl in one of my religion classes was talking about some things about my own church that I have never heard before. She then preceded to give me a website. I read the website and saw the inconsistencies in the church history. I think your best bet is to tell your parents that you non intentionally stumbled on the history of the church. Then don't hold back and unload on them with everything that is wrong. Only use things that can be proven, witch is almost everything. Most things are stated in the journal of discourses or other documents. Be able to cite your sources for these problems or your parents will blow them off.

Ask these missionaries very deep questions. Express to them that you aren't concerned with the basics, but you are concerned with the more deeper doctrinal topics.

The chances are the things you mention won't convince your parents about anything. They will come up with very poor apologetic answers. After this don't agree to any of the apologetic responses and then tell them that it is no longer about the history. Tell them that you have a new religous belief (whatever that may be). And just say the history just reaffirms to me that this church isn't for me, but that isn't the reason you are no longer mormon.

I hope this helps! I am a very similar situation as you. Don't back down! Stick to what you know and have researched. Try your best not to offend them, but to express your personal concerns. Then proceed to tell them that you have your freedom of religion and read off the 11th article of faith. I would suggest still going to church out of respect of your parents, but right when you move out the your life is all yours. That has been how I dealt with my problems.

Of course all parents are different. I did the belligerent, angry, yelling, rebellious thing, and I don't recommend that.

Just ask them to watch "the mormons" on PBS http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/. Tell them a friend asked if you had seen it at school or something like that and so you looked it up and it left you with questions. Ok so its a lie, but the church lies to you all the time. Watch it with them. See if they know about the issues in it (Joseph Smith using a hat/seer stone to translate, polyandry, polygamy - the real reason he was in carthage jail.) Tell them that the sister missionaries aren't answering questions that the show brings up.

Anyways that's an option. There are other's but that's a suggestion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 07:52PM by evolution.

in hearing all of that repetition. You are too busy with school, work, hobbies, activities, and friends. Say you're more than willing to do chores around the house, keep your room picked up, and work hard at school, but the mishie stuff has to go.

If they insist, tell the mishies you'll no longer respond or listen but will sit mute, then do it. I'm not sure if you're the type to pull this off, but I did that a few times when they called on me to give a testimony or other offensive thing at church. I turned to solid stone, didn't move, didn't speak, didn't explain why, just sat there mute and staring straight ahead.

This is gutsy, but it will stop the Mormons in their tracks. They probably won't even knock or ring the door bell after reading this! :-)



NOTICE:

I am under no obligation to:
avoid all loud laughter,
lightmindedness,
evil speaking of the lords anointed
or any other impure or unholy practice

Enter at you own risk
Rachel, My New Name

(Big Smiley Face here!)

I resorted to this shocker as a couple of missionaries were being obnoxious and annoying and wouldn't leave me alone.
I put it on the inside of the window in my door then I watched the Mormons that came to my door read it! It was priceless.

For those that have been to the temple, this statement is from The Law of the Gospel, one of the temple covenants. As the temple is so sacred it is not to be discussed, seeing this statement on a door can be quite a shock! And humorous.


Law of the Gospel: We are required to give unto you the Law of the Gospel as contained in the Holy Scriptures; to give unto you also a charge to avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice, and to cause you to receive these by covenant.

REST HERE:
http://www.lds4u.com/lesson5/templecovenants.htm

To SusieQ#1, both the 15-year old and you are in part-member families. How can either of you put something like that by the doorbell? Wouldn't the TBM(s) in the family remove it, or be troubled that you're driving away their friends from visiting them?

S. Tissue Trotter

slowtrotter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To SusieQ#1, both the 15-year old and you are in
> part-member families. How can either of you put
> something like that by the doorbell? Wouldn't the
> TBM(s) in the family remove it, or be troubled
> that you're driving away their friends from
> visiting them?
>
> S. Tissue Trotter


Like I said, I only used it once for a specific purpose.
It was on the inside of the window in my front door, not on a door bell.
It's a gutsy move to make a statement with a little humor.
If hubby (believer) saw it, he didn't say a word.

Use your best judgment. Deal with your specific circumstances as best you can.

15 year olds do not write in complete sentences.

I stopped reading when you described yourself as a 15.

Better luck next time.

Is BYU out this week?

has he given you any other indications he's a troll?
I don't see it. I think he's sincere.

Scooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 15 year olds do not write in complete sentences.
>
> I stopped reading when you described yourself as a
> 15.
>
> Better luck next time.
>
> Is BYU out this week?


Hmmm, Scooter. Interesting observation. I read your post and ran georgedubya's original post through the MS Word Readability program. His writing registers as post-high school ("Grade 12.6") with an average of 28 words per sentence.

Doesn't sound like the work of any 15-year-old I know, either.

Both of my sons wre scoring post high school while in Jr High. It is no reason to call Troll and push away a 15 year old kid who needs a friendly ear.

Holy the Ghost Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both of my sons wre scoring post high school while
> in Jr High. It is no reason to call Troll and push
> away a 15 year old kid who needs a friendly ear.


Most teenagers I know can't write that well unless they attend Montessori or are home schooled by English professor parents. But, you're right. We shouldn't push away a sincere seeker and I do sincerely apologize for being unkind.

Very interesting that you guys are quick to make such assumptions. Quite frankly, I'm not going to give much more proof about my age than the LDS church is willing to give about it's fortitude to the facts against them, outside their "I believe!" testimonies. I could link a pic of me, link my Facebook, etc.. Not that it would prove anything. What, you've never heard of a 15 year old who can make sentences that isn't yo sup u a genius or sumthin? lol

Thank goodness there are some 15 year olds that CAN write complete sentences! How funny that people are claiming none are capable of this--and scary. I think teens intelligent enough to question the family religion can definitely write as well as many older posters . . .

Obviously this is a smart kid. He already sees that TSCC is a lot of hooey, right?

Also, as a mom of a 16 yr old daughter who has been writing in complete sentences since somewhere around 3rd grade, I'm a little insulted on behalf of teens everywhere who are literate.

If it turns out this is a troll, then let him have his fun. He's stuck in a cult and we're not.

There's no way to know how old a writer is unless they tell you.

Scooter I regularly read my 12 year old daughter's writing assignments. She is absolutley capable of writing complete, articulate sentences on her own.

Please exercise tact when walking the line between healthy skepticism and contempt.

Don't judge the poster because he is articulate. You'd be surprised at how many effecient, young writers there are out there.

Easy.

Start flirting with them.

And when they come over, extend your hand in the first token of the Aaronic priesthood and ask:

What is this? Does it have a name?" Will you give it to me?"

You probably won't need to use the remaining three.

They will most certainly leave you alone, but your parents might not be too happy with you.

I'd like to share this little story.

Two years ago this month a got a call out of the blue. Turns out it was sister missionaries. Still not sure how they tracked me down. I had not been to church in years and even moved across the country. The only thing I can think, and no one has owned up to it, is that a TBM family member must have given out my number. Anyway, they wanted to know if they could come over and talk. I was off work and recovering from laser eye surgery, so I said okay. At the time I was living in a basement apartment, and they had rung the front door bell for my land lord upstairs. He showed them to my place and we had an interesting talk. We had a frank discussion about the church, basically I said I didn't buy it, they said they did, etc. I kept it polite, and then they went on their way and I never saw or heard from them since. A couple of months later I officially had my records removed. After they left my land lord made a couple of remarks that were funny.

Of course I was in my twenties and living on my own, which makes it easy to tell them straight up that you don't believe. But when I was in my teens like georgedubya it was difficult. I started withdrawing and it had consequences. My old man was pissed. He threatened me and tried to force me to go. But in the end I went my own way.

You're still young and have a long time left at home. I'd simply ask your parents to cancel the appointment. Maybe tell them that honestly that you don't want to meet with the missionaries because they won't be able to answer the questions you have. If they insist, then I'd follow the advice of other posters.

Have a print out of JoD verses that correlate with the problems your have with the church.

Print out the Family Search of Joseph Smith's wives and ages. Also print out the average marriage age of the country during that time (to refute the claim that marrying at 14 was "normal" during that time).

Don't talk about anything that can be related as "anti-Mormon." Despite the fact that it might be true, they will instantly dismiss anything that they can. The point of their visit is to re-convert you, not to actually answer your questions.

Good luck. You have a long road ahead of you. Please take advantage of this board as needed; it's here for any support you need as you deal with living with Mormon family for the years ahead.

Each time they visit, do little things that will creep them out, such as sitting too close to them, maybe make sure your thigh it leaning into hers and then just "accidentally" put your hand on her leg...

Or, grab one of the gals hands in just a nice manner of greeting her, but sort of hold it too long, while looking her in the eye..

Give weird comments about their clothing or hair, making it appear that you are trying to say something nice implying you find her attractive...

IOW Be a Creep

Of course, it could backfire, as they may be replaced with two fellows when the young women refuse to return....but you could come onto them too and creep them out...

Ask them how they get on managing their little factory...

Every Wednesday, tell them you have spent the whole week praying for an answer as to whether the bom is true. Tell them the answer keeps coming back as 'No'.

If you do that every Wednesday, surely there will come a point where your parents see the fultility in continuing the arranged visits.

I don't see the point in you trying to argue any doctrinal or historical stuff. Just stick to your guns - that you don't believe the bom is 'true'.

1) Meet them at the front door in nothing but your birthday suit.

2) Tell them you want the discussion on Masturbation, and keep urging them to discuss Masturbation, because Masturbation is really important to you. Did you mention that you think there is nothing wrong with Masturbation?

One or the other of these ought to work.

Your family seems hellbent on getting you to be shamed and bullied back into the church. You might want to split your time between researching and thinking about the job you want to get when you are 16. You'll probably want something that will be good enough to get you out of the house at 18.

Or keep your grades up and get ready to apply for scholarships to schools that will get you out of the house.

You're going to probably want to plan for your future early just to get out of the house as fast as possible after high school.

Sorry things are so crappy.

All the continual pressure to "believe" is a hallmark of cultism. It's not good enough for you to go to church while you are still living at home; the church wants that all-important mind control, too.

I don't think you are going to win any theological arguments. If you try, local priesthood holders might be harassing you next. It's tough when they're supposedly the grownups and they see you as a kid.

I think I'd try to get involved in so many school or other activities, or a job, that you just don't have time for them to bother you. Seek out supportive friends; study the church and draw your own conclusions.

Getting a scholarship and getting out of the house ASAP is good advice. Good luck to you; you'll always find support here.

On my mission I had an investigator that we were teaching (mid 30s woman) call on Valentines Day (2 weeks before I went home) and ask to speak to me. She proceeded to read something she had written over the phone basically telling me she was in love with me. I politely thanked her for sharing, talked a bit more and got off the phone. I told my companion that I could not longer teach the woman— and we didn't.

As a missionary I was terrified of the situation. This came out of the blue. The woman was actually pretty hot but I was good Mormon boy so like Joseph in the Bible I ran. Looking back I wonder if I should of had a few 1 on 1 discussions instead.

Anyway the point is, feigning a serious crush always might resolve the problem— if only temporarily. They might merely transfer your new love. Problem solved.

Any chance you can talk to your parents and asked them to call off the hounds?