Below is his standard modus operandi:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,182881; and http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,267628


If and when spotted, please report this Groundhog-Day Groundhog for Kolob to Rabies and Animal Control.

Thank you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 02:50PM by steve benson.

I can't wait for more drama!

I read the threads. I sniffed out a little bit of self-doubt in those postings of his.

I fished this one out of the ol' bullchip catcher...

>I am just a simple college student. If you think that I know a lot, well I don't. My believing Mormons friends, are the ones that know a lot, they know a lot a lot more than me. They will easily win a debate with you.

It comes down to this: If one believes the story of the Golden Plates and some celestial entity visiting Joseph Smith, then whatever faith one follows should be discarded in favor of Mormonism.

New Order Mormons need not apply, of course...

And I see SC claims he wishes to become a physicist. I suggest a "Come to Jesus" meeting is in order. Both of the two board Jesuses under consideration for the "One True RFM Jesus" have degrees in that field (sorry, GayLay, you're a latecomer).

I am kind of wondering whether he poked his nose into my history class, however...

. . . he has demonstrated here quite clearly that he is not a healthy skeptic of Mormonism. At least, he's putting on a good game face in that regard.

I suspect, however, that beneath his "faithful" surface, there's trouble a-bubblin.'

"It comes down to this: If one believes the story of the Golden Plates and some celestial entity visiting Joseph Smith, then whatever faith one follows should be discarded in favor of Mormonism."

That doesn't solve the problem. What brand of Mormonism? If you really believe the BoM, you'd join the CoC (RLDS) or the Temple Lot church. The BoM doesn't lead you to the LD$.

Hey bro, what are you doing?? I just proved 2 of your accusations wrong.

1) Highly most likely that Joseph Smith didn't have sex with Helen
2) Fanny was Joseph Smith's wife (probably not sealed to her)

Now, I have a challenge for you all, Explain AB resistance or plant speciation without using The Theory of Evolution

"quite clearly that he is not a healthy skeptic of Mormonism"
I am not afraid of the evidence, and I will make no claims without reliable historical evidence.
And why do you all assume that all skeptics have to be atheists??

and that's sad, because I am just a simple college student, still like a kid, and I refuted two of your accusations

. . . you claimed on this board this afternoon that you utilize other resources besides FAIR and FARMS when it comes to your Mormon studies.

Really?

I asked you what those resources were.

You have yet to identify them.

I would hope that your experience here would lead you to include RfM--but I'm not holding my breath.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 06:39PM by steve benson.

Todd Compton is a good source(appeal to authority), why do you assume that Todd Compton would be dishonest??
This wouldn't be critical anyways, if Joseph Smith had sex with Helen, which most likely he didn't. So LDS historians have no reason to lie about this. Like I previously stated, 200 years ago, it was okay for a women to marry young, age (teenagers) was not an issue back then. The issue is polygamy, but not age.

Age is absolutely an issue.

Look up the marriage stats. It was not normal. You are pulling info out of the myths the church was teaching you.

The average age of marriage was in 20's.

Also the average age of menarche was higher too.

14 years old on average had not had their first period.

Look it up; you're wrong.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 06:57PM by steve benson.

I'm sure there were plenty of 14 year olds Jeffs didn't manage to screw. But the big picture is this:

If the girl is manipulated adequately, submissive, and taught to revere the leader, there is a pretty good chance opportunists like JS and WJ would take advantage if possible.

Was JS able to pull it off every time? I don't know, but I know the pattern. I'm pretty sure I know the intent behind telling a young girl to be sealed for eternity. Many of the girls were naive like you.

Don't be so naive. I know you are young, but buy a vowel about this topic. It is about sex and power underneath it all. Don't you see how convenient it is to use "God said so" to get what you want? Read the D&C. It's all about JS telling people to do what he wanted (God revealed He wants your farm and your daughter!).

TheSkepticChristian, I am most highly interested on who you think the Mayans are?

"I am most highly interested on who you think the Mayans are?"

The Mayas started as Pre-Classic in about 2000 BC. There ancestors came from Syberia, and its most likely that a small group of Hebrews in 600 BC went to Meso-America, and mixed with them. But, I will be honest with you, their is no confirmed evidence that a small group of Hebrews came, but that doesn't mean that that disproofs my beliefs. Lack of evidence doesn't mean proven false.

Next question. When were Adam and Eve created and when did the Mayan ancestors come from Siberia? Were their ancestors destroyed in Noah's flood?

Steve, sorry for adding a new topic. TheSkepticChristian, let's talk about Mayans on a new thread.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,267895

"I just proved 2 of your accusations wrong."

1) Highly most likely that Joseph Smith didn't have sex with Helen"

Haha! You linked to a FAIR article, and you "proved" this?

I don't think so.

So...Joseph threatens her and her family's eternal salvation to have her sealed to him.

The doctrine of polygamy seems to state right out that it is only acceptable to raise up a "seed" or "generation" according to BoM.

But...you're saying he didn't have sex with her.

So, polygamy is completely illegal, according to scriptures is only there to help create more Chosen religious babies, but Joseph didn't have sex with one of his multiple wives.

Yeah. No.

Also, I saw your diatribe about "biased" information after you linked to FAIR.

That is so funny. Apologetics are unbiased how? Do you know the definition of apologist?

Sometimes I crack myself up. When does school start again? And don't say I never let you have one!

. . . since Helen herself highly intimated as much to a friend--and since Smith had a documentable history of sexual predation when it came to going after underage girls (some of whom, in fact, also affirmed that they had had sex with him).

Second, I noted in my research (made available to you) that Alger was Smith's first plural wife. That doesn't mean he didn't have an affair with her.

And when I pointed out to you that Cowdery (who had described Smith's relationship with Alger as an affair in quite lurid terms) had 1) stuck to his claim that Smith had engaged in this affair and that 2) Cowdery had been excommunicated, all you could manage when I then noted that this would make therefore Cowdery one of your evil "anti-Mormons" was . . . a smiley face.

You have a strange way of conjuring up "refutations."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 06:50PM by steve benson.

But why ignore that Fanny's family, Levi Hancock, and even hostile witnesses saw their relationship as a marriage, albeit an unorthodox one?? Now, why so cheery picking, and why not accept Oliver's testimony of the Book of Mormon? Maybe it was an affair in Oliver's perspective, but that fact is that Joseph was married to her (probably not sealed). Now I will be honest, I don't know much about this, but trust me, my Mormon believing friends, know a lot more than me.



"Todd Compton is a good source(appeal to authority), why do you assume that Todd Compton would be dishonest??
This wouldn't be critical anyways, if Joseph Smith had sex with Helen, which most likely he didn't. So LDS historians have no reason to lie about this. Like I previously stated, 200 years ago, it was okay for a women to marry young, age (teenagers) was not an issue back then. The issue is polygamy, but not age."

"to help create more Chosen religious babies"

Their is evidence that Joseph Smith probably did have sex with his plural wives (the available evidence doesn't support the claim that he had sex with married women), but there is no conclusive evidence to date of Joseph having had children by any of his plural wives.
Joseph established the practice of plural marriage as part of the "restoration of all things," and introduced it to a number of others within the Church. This alone may have been the purpose of Joseph's initiation of the practice. The establishment of the practice ultimately did have the effect of "raising up seed"...just not through Joseph Smith.

All you can do is call Smith's relationship with Alger "unorthodox." That is too big of a word for you and no doubt came from FAIR.

You would be splendid defense counsel for Warren Jeffs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 07:02PM by steve benson.

SkepticChristian, are you a mormon? You keep talking about your believing "friends" but you also say you think it's likely that hebrews sailed to mesoamerica around 600BC, even though there is absolutely no evidence to back that up, and there is an abundance of evidence (including DNA) to demonstrate that there were no hebrews in the americas pre-columbus.

Please clarify your position. Are you a christian who believes the claims of Joseph Smith? If so, why not join mormonism? If you're a mormon pretending not to be, isn't that contrary to the 13th article of faith?

But, Joseph had sex with his plural wives. He also had an abortionist on hand to take care of any unwanted children.

He broke the rules of the polygamy based on ALL church doctrine.

He got what he wanted when he wanted.

And the raising up a seed - I'm glad you asked.

Do the math. Polygamy doesn't raise up a seed. Brigham's wives and children were way less than those of monogymous couples.

Do the math.

There is a reason why Mormonism experienced a huge growth of BIC babies after polygamy was mostly abandoned and why the FLDS has growth issues.

Polygamy does not produce as many children as monogamous couples can.

But, it does bring about a lot of very very unsavory issues. I'm glad you're defending the practice that kept women in economic bondage, creates "lost boys," and leads to sexual assault in so many forms.

Here's a story you should look up.

Google; Bishop Snow castration.

Have fun defending that train wreck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 07:07PM by Raptor Jesus.

...your intuition, SC, which is telling you "There's something right about what these guys are saying," is right!

You've been taught all your life to deny your common sense and good judgement in favor of the Church.

As you study more science, you'll learn that the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument does not work and is not a valid argument to support the Book of Mormon history. You probably already know this, but it's one of the last strings holding your testimony of LDSism together.

You belong to an abusive organization. Look at it NOW. Stop basing it's truth on its history. Now, on its 2011 merits, it's an abusive organization (leave polygamy and other things out of the equation).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 07:05PM by steve benson.