Yes, I know you're still there.

Let me step way out of what I believe is true for a second. Let's say the Book of Mormon came about exactly as witnesses say: That it was inspired by God when Joseph looked into his hat at a seerstone and was given the narrative.

Let's pretend we agree that this is what happened and that God was behind it, etc...

How does something like that prove the LDS Church is true. The first vision...same thing. Nothing that happened to Joseph Smith can confirm that the LDS Church in 2011 is the only true church.

From a Christian perspective, using the criteria that "by their fruits" you will know if they are Christ's...what are their fruits? Can we know the Church is true because of the fruits it produces? That pretends on the definition of "good" and it also depends on the church letting someone know what its fruits actually are.

The thing is, you don't know what their fruits really are, because they won't show you. I dare you to try to find out. Sure, they put up a flag whenever they think they are being Christlike. But when it gets down to it, you don't know where your tithing money goes, you don't know what church numbers really are, and you don't know if the Church does all that much good with the assets it has available. Oh, sure, you have plenty of clues, but you don't see them because any exposure of the clues to its self-serving and unChristlike behaviors, which are many, are labeled as anti-Mormon or Apostate. And those things are inherently bad, right?

The church defines what is true about itself, just like a homeowner trying to sell you his home ALWAYS tells you about the downsides of buying his house; the shifty foundation and the backed up septic. You should always beleive the salesman. Right? Don't go looking at consumer reports, because consumers are liars. Right?

Granted, I exclude from my definition of "good fruit" all those things that were never once mentioned by Christ to his followers (in the New Testament and Book of Mormon), because, well, I'm trying to keep my criteria Christian. So, my definition of "good" excludes temples, temple work for the dead, large chapels, food storage, Boy Scouts, setting up chairs for conference, temple recommends, worthiness interviews, and many other things from the "good works" category. It excludes overtly fighting against homosexuals, and blah-blah-blahing from a world-wide pulpit about food storage, and obedience to men as if they spoke for God, and a number of other things the Church does every week, month and year.

So, I guess the Church is at an unfair advantage if I base my definition of "good fruits" on Christ's definition of good as found in the New Testament and The Keystone of Mormonism.

However, if you define "good" as whatever the Church says is "good" and whatever the general authorities do in the name of the church right now in 2011, then you belong to the perfect most true organization in the world! It's not really all that Christian. But hey, what the hell, it's still the best. Right?

Let us know if you discover where the Church dumps its resources. I'd love to be proven wrong and say, "Wow, the Church really is giving everything for the things Christ said." I'll still think it has whacky teachings and freaky practices. But I'd at least like to know the whacky teachings lead it to do good in the world in 2011, even if it's caused untold suffering for 170 years. I believe organizations can change and become better.

Isn't it interesting that posters here never go to a mormon web site and try to convert mormons to being exmormon????Mormons come here and try to reconvert us...What is wrong with this picture????

The church is a "fruit" hoaxster.

The "fruits" were supposed to be the visible manifestation of an inward change to an attitude of loving kindness. This is why Jesus said to look for it as a sign of enlightenment.

The Mormon church sidesteps the internal change part, because if you achieve any kind of peace or joy which they don't control, then why would you pay tithing. So instead, their model is to create fear of losing your family in the afterlife unless you pay for a temple card which gets you "sealed."

Still, they need to manifest these fruits to attract converts who may be Bible readers, so they institutionalized charity. They organize and send out caring home teachers "assigned friends" and collect your money to give to the poor (you are to trust their word on that). So you don't have to worry about your needy little old lady next door. If she were worthy of assistance, she would have called the bishop and he would call the Relief Society, so you can move along.

Many people cannot tell the difference between a group of neighbors putting sandbags up to protect someone's house and a team of elders who were called by the bishop to show up and make sandbags for their quorum charitable activity.

Individuals deprived of the opportunity to make connections with poor people, to notice needs around them, become inbred and lacking in compassion. That might be noticeable, so let's rachet up the church groups to do more visible charitable work...as a group of course, so they can wear T-shirts.

And don't forget to call KSL.

Anagrammy

Oh, I don't think the are necessarily trying to reconvert us. I think most come here out of curiosity and then try to cover it up and being valiant in the eyes of the ol' lord by trying to defend their "faith and testimony" so they won't feel as though they are sinning. Many probably don't realize who they are up against in here like the heavy artillery such as Steve Benson, et. al. Then they toss and turn in bed at night wondering as their little "testimony" is slowing getting chopped down! As I always say, let the kids have their fun. They might come here and pop their mouth off a little. But in reality, deep down, they are here for a reason. Today's "TBM lurker" is tomorrow's resignation letter writing, RfM lovin, exmormon!

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