Over two years ago I went inactive. At the time I was suffering from depression, unhappy in the church, and struggling with my marriage. I had two kids 2 and 1 years old. I went inactive anticipating I would eventually go back. Instead, I went to my doctor and got an anti-depressant. Then, after finding out a well-respected friend of mine was a closet Atheist, I began to research atheism and some things he'd told me about the Church. This lead me to a full-blown dillusionment with the Church and eventually my resignation. I started to drink coffee, then alcohol. Having broken out of the mental prison the church put me in, I began to discover new pleasures in life. I gained enough motivation to start going to the gym on a regular basis. I began reading all kinds of books I would have never imagined myself reading before. I felt happier than I ever had in my life. I felt like I was finally able to be me. Except, there was one rather large drawback, my unaccepting TBM wife and family.

Fast forward nearly two years. My wife still lives in her fantasy world where the church is true. She refuses to hear my arguments or read my literature. She won't accept that I drink alcohol even though it's contributed to my better mood and I don't abuse it. One week its divorce and the next it's we'll stay together for the kids. Our marriage is hanging by a thread. I want out, but I can't fathom the idea of leaving my kids and I'm afraid of the possible depression/anxiety it may cause. My wife wants change, but she still harbors some false hope that I'll have an epiphany moment and return to the Church.

Now there's a lot more behind our failing marriage than just my leaving the Church. So I can't blame this one all on the Church. We are both at fault. But to make a long story short. I take a business trip. I'm desperate for something new. I meet a girl in a bar. We exchange texts for a few months afterward and I get caught. Now we're getting divorced.

Despite everything, my wife is my friend and I love her as such. I feel bad that my actions have caused her pain. Nevertheless, I do not feel bad for my actions, and I would do it again. I can't help but feel that her pain is unnecessary; not because I could have acted differently, but because her perception of sexualfidelity is convoluted by a conservative Christian culture. Is there something wrong with me?

My views of sexual monogomy have changed considerably since I left the Church. I don't believe it is realistic for some people; even most people. Nevertheless, I understand that what I did was bad in the sense that I had commited to a monogymous relationship, and I broke that commitment.

What do you think? Am I no better than a murderer as the Church would have you believe? Maybe this was just a mistake and it can be corrected? Was I justified in my actions given the circumstances? Or maybe this is just an unfortunate reaction to an unfortunate circumstance, but a necessary one in order to push us towards the better decision: divorce? (That's what I believe)

...did you actually sleep with the girl you met in the bar, or was it just exchanging texts?

The problem as I see it, is that you were already in a partnership that had a particular understanding that you would both be monogamous. I think you understand pretty well why you did what you did, and I think your thoughts about it pushing you towards the divorce you are now in the midst of (and it was a good thing) are about right.

I'm sorry for your wife, that she's lost you in several ways, but I'm happy for you that you're going to live a more full and honest life. Especially if you learned that you need a partner who is more aligned to your way of living, to be open and honest with them and not do things behind their back.

Honestly, it doesnt look like u need help justifing ur actions. This relationship cant be saved because u no longer r the person ur wife fell in love with, even if that person was a brainwashed TBM. Get out while u can, while the kids are young. Its better for them to grow up used to having their parents not living together than with them fighting all the time, having one whisper that daddy is a bad person, etc. But please dont hurt the kids. Stay close, get shared custody or whatever. Make it work but staying together for the kids wont.

As humans and I'm not talking about the Mormon version of human - the god in embryo form crap- we live and we learn. We make mistakes and sometime those mistakes are the best things we ever do.

We have no choice but to move forward. Spending too much time and effort fretting over the past only gets in the way of what tomorrow might bring.

"...did you actually sleep with the girl you met in the bar, or was it just exchanging texts?"

Yes, I slept with the girl. Sorry, I thought it was implied.

@missguided

Thank you for you advice, those are my thoughts.

I can't help but wonder if there's something wrong with the way I feel (or don't feel). I would have expected to feel terribly guilty, but I don't. I suppose if our relationship had been better, I would feel differently? But then, had that been the case, maybe I wouldn't have the motivation to do what I did. Adultery carries such a large negative stigma in our society.

You're probably going to hear yes and no to if you're a bad person.

Depression and anxiety may be more to blame than you are. I don't know. I do think one thing though. Don't abandon those kids.

IMO, using adultery as a means of escape in a marriage was not the best avenue of departure. Now you are stuck with the stigma, and you get to live with the result.

If I had been your wife, my preference would have been a clean cut divorce, and then you could play the field and around all you want.

But, again, this is my opinion.

I'm going to go with Stunted on this one. No one has the right to judge you, and the infidelity definitely doesn't make you a bad person at all.

I have a very different view about monogamy as well. I most definitely agree with you that some people just aren't wired for it, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My partner and I have been together for 9 years, and we occasionally invite other men to join us in a sexual situation. That's what works for us. It doesn't replace sex between just the two of us, but it does give us the chance to mix things up a bit. We both are aware of the risks of that behavior, but we both also understand that there's a difference between sex and love, and we're both able to separate the two. But not everyone thinks that way, and that's totally fine.

Infidelity is usually the symptom of a bigger problem in the relationship, and that seems to be the case with yours as well. It sounds like you hadn't been happy in your marriage for quite awhile, which clearly contributed to your infidelity. Obviously the ideal situation would have been dissolution of the relationship BEFORE the infidelity- that would probably have spared your wife the pain of feeling betrayed, but it happened, and you can't change it; all you can do is move forward with your life and live it honestly and authentically. I don't think there's any one particular way you SHOULD be feeling about it. You feel how you feel. Every situation is different. In my experience, guilt is a completely useless emotion. People make mistakes every day.

It sounds to me like you really needed a reason to divorce your wife, and infidelity gave you that push to actually make it happen. Could there have been a better way to do it? Maybe, but again, you can't change it. I think it's good that you've discovered more about who you are sexually. That paves a clear path for you in your next relationship to know exactly what you want in that regard (open relationship, threeways, etc.?). The point is, it seems you are at peace with that part of yourself, which I think you should be.

So again, I don't think you're a bad person at all. Just my two cents.

> I can't help but wonder if there's something wrong with the way I feel (or don't feel). I would have expected to feel terribly guilty, but I don't.

Just guessing, but you probably aren't feeling that bad because you needed a way out and cheating provided it. It was the catalyst you craved.

There's a reason why a lot of cheaters get caught, and it's usually because they want to get caught. Instant relationship implosion is attractive to those that want out of a relationship.

Should you feel guilt? I have no idea. I think it's understandable that the relief has overshadowed any guilt. But don't think you're an immoral a-hole now simply because you don't feel guilt. Morals don't follow religion, despite what religious propaganda says. Some of the worst people in history have draped themselves in religion.

Those that are horrible people before religion are horrible people after religion as well. Disbelief only removes the pressure to conform, not the will to do what is right.

Some rather childishly will attempt the opposite actions to "rebel" (like smoking or heavy drinking or screwing anything with legs) but that isn't true disbelief. That is still allowing former beliefs to have control over your actions. True disbelief is indifference. If I want a drink, I drink, not because someone once told me it was evil. But if I choose to do so, I do so understanding the risk and rewards that I have evaluated for myself. That is self-empowerment.

That doesn't mean you'll be making all the right decisions, but it does mean no longer allowing someone else to have that power over you.

If you're searching for a moral center there are a lot of books on ethics out there that can help you get a better grounding. No single ethical framework is perfect. All have their problems and most people use a combination of them, but that isn't as contradictory as it sounds.

I wonder was it just texts or more? Either way is not good IMO, as someone who has been cheated on in text/e-mail and for real cheating, either one hurts just as bad. Now if the texts were innocent flirting then, ok that's naughty but not neccesarily cause for divorce, however, if the text/e-mails contained sexual innuendo, promises of something more after ditching the wife, well, that is a completely different story. My husband did these things to me, I would find texts that said things like "wish I could spend a week in a cabin with just you and me" not appropriate for a married man, I don't care how liberal your view is. I found an e-mail that said "I can't wait for the day that we can be together physically and spiritually" "I love looking into your beautiful blue eyes" "you are my soul mate" now, to me whether or not he slept with her is moot, sex is easy, it's the relationship he had with this woman that hurt me the most, I would have hated knowing that he "just" screwed her and that was that, what I will never be able to forgive is the "relationship" the connection that he deliberatly cultivated with a woman that was not his wife, knowing it was wrong. Your situation is much different than mine, I understand that, my marraige was not in trouble, at least not that I knew, and yours obviously is, but no matter how bad things are, you should be able to speak honestly to your wife, and she to you. You are both unhappy, staying for the kids is not the smartest because no matter how much you hide from them kids ALWAYS know...maybe divorce, while scary, as change often is, would be the best thing for both of you. You're not a bad person, you made mistakes, we all do, some worse than others, but you are not evil nor would I lump you with murderes, even having been in a similar situation...I chose to...not forgive my husband, but accept what he did and try to get past it. IMO it sounds to me like maybe, possibly...you used this as the catalyst to get out of the marraige? Like maybe you didn't know how to walk away so you forced her hand so to speak? Maybe I'm wrong but that is what it sounds like to me. Good luck, I wish you well and you're not a bad person, just human. But I recommend that next time try honesty, it works better and in the long run it hurts less.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 05:38PM by dominikki.

No you are not a bad person.

BadPerson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What do you think? Am I no better than a murderer as the Church would have you believe? Maybe this was just a mistake and it can be corrected? Was I justified in my actions given the circumstances?

The church's attitude toward sex is insane, so don't trouble yourself on that score. Sex outside of marriage is hardly next to murder.

Having said that, I believe that spouses should honor their marriage vows. I am comfortable with that viewpoint especially because I had a full social life when I was younger, as did all of my nevermo friends. I wouldn't feel is if I were missing anything if I made a monogamous commitment to someone. But it sounds to me as if you need some playtime. So go do it (to the extent that you can while also honoring your commitment to your small children, which should be your number one priority.)

My observation and opinion is that people who cheat once are highly likely to do it again. As you have found out, cheating can have negative consequences. If you cheat on another partner in the future, it may result in you losing someone that you really don't want to lose. I have seen this happen. So by all means go out, date, and have your fun. But if you find someone who is special to you, really think through what is most important to you, because your loved one may not give you a second chance if you mess up.

Forgive Yourself first.

yes, ppl are 'human' but we can almost always do Better.
Adultery isn't Better, it is 'Cheating'. 'true christians' forgive others, but apparently that doesn't apply to ChurchCo members.

IF u have cleansed yrself from your sins... regardless of their origin, (try to) communicate that to (ex now?) wife.

IF u can honestly (she'll know) tell her Why U did that.

Forgiveness begins with ME; being Forgiven begins with others.

You made a mistake and you hurt someone you cared about. There seems to be little value in labeling yourself a bad person. Admit that you were wrong, avoid making the same mistake in the future, and do what you can to make things as easy on your wife as possible. Don't expect to receive some kind of absolution from posters on a message board. You are just going to have to accept what you did, make the best of things, and move on.

No, you're not bad and no, you don't need to forgive yourself for anything. You were simply looking for love when your marriage had failed you. Time to move on and be who you really are w/o the constraints. Take good care of the kids, as they'll suffer, but they'll survive and flourish if you give them a well-loved and stable environment.

You were married. YOU should not have slept with another person if you did. Not clear by your post. You should not be sending texts all the time either to a stranger you met in the bar. My ex did that too. Had I known I would have been out the door so fast. He would text her at 3 and 4 am. How childish. We got phone records later and he looked like a 14 yr. old kid. Get a divorce and then be with someone else. You did it in the wrong order. YOU were married. YOU made a huge mistake. You need to recognize that. I think what you are feeling is guilt. Well, my ex never apologized either. You will feel better if you do. Sorry you are also having to deal with the fact your kids are from a broken home. My kids and yours didn't deserve this.

Bad person? No more than the next person. Douche of a husband and man? Yup. More especially because you're trying to dictate how much pain another person gets to feel because you don't find it to be such a big deal. I find that strange considering you've suffered from depression yourself which, to a lot of people, is unjustified pain.

...but your wife didn't. You betrayed her. She deserves a husband who wants to be faithful because that's what she longs for. In other words, you don't deserve her.

Her emotional abuse of you is due to being brainwashed by an abusive church. However, your emotional abuse of her is due to willingly and pre-meditatively changing your mind about being faithful to her. You know it, she knows it, and unfortunately your children will know it, if they don't already. You are not a bad person, but you'll always be the bad guy in that situation. Even if your wife admits "it takes two" and tries to muffle the blame cast on you, it won't work.

Your children will never see things your way.

We men like to say, "One thing just led to another." But that's just stupid, and we generally all know when we start flirting with the other woman, that we can take it as far as we want to go...and sometimes we follow through.

I'm not saying this as the perfect husband that has never done anything to betray trust...I say it because I've done certain bad things and seen others do bad things.

We're not bad. We're just assholes who ring really loud bells that can't be unrung for at least a generation. Good luck. And take care of your children.

I really disagree with this post. The OP's relationship with his kids will be based on their direct experience of him as a dad, not what happened in their parents marriage when they were 1 and 3.

+1

Good post King B.

In my opinion, you knew exactly what your current marital expectations were, and instead of attempting to either renegotiate them or get some counseling to help BOTH of you with the changes you were experiencing, you went the way you went and are trying to justify it somehow.
Oh, you don't feel bad? That is rather narcissistic of you.

The mature route is to extricate yourself from unwanted obligations FIRST. But since mormons are in general not taught how to communicate, I can understand why you took the path you did. I don't mean to sound like I condone it in any way. But I understand how it happened. Please undertake some personal growth and exploration, your family are not toys to be tossed aside with no regret because they aren't the neat shiny things you thought they were. Take some care.

Communication. Communication. Verbal communication.

My mother still thinks her eyeballs are telepathic communication devices.

+1.

I'd like to cheat on mine but I'm getting too old to attract any young hotties. And I'm not a bad person. I think.

in one sentence you say: " my wife is my friend and I love her as such. I feel bad that my actions have caused her pain." and then in the next you say " I do not feel bad for my actions, and I would do it again". then you go on to say " I can't help but feel that her pain is unnecessary; not because I could have acted differently, but because her perception of sexual fidelity is convoluted by a conservative Christian culture."


well in MHO it appear to me that you are trying to look for justification for what you have done, and the hurt and betrayal you have caused to your wife. and it also sounds to me like you are indeed trying to place the blame on her and the church for your action. to me if you loved her and cared about the pain YOUR actions caused her....you would have left the marriage/got a divorce before acting on your impulses. But you gave no thought to the feelings or pain this would cause your wife. You wanted what you wanted and it just didn't matter who it hurt.


your actions have nothing to do with the tssc or your wife.....you and you alone are responsible for your own actions and you can blame no one else for them. much less your wife!!!


my heart goes out to your wife, i know the hurt and betrayal that actions like this can cause.


do her a favor and set her free.

I'm assuming that there's much more to you than infidelity and the ways you've justified it to yourself, but that's pretty much all we know about you. That's not much to evaluate in your favor.

You've changed your views on monogamy, and you think your wife's suffering is "unnecessary" because she has conservative views about sexual fidelity? I'm a hardcore atheist who doesn't give a rat's ass about monogamy, but I sure as hell care about integrity. You can criticize your wife's views in order to shift blame for her suffering from you on to her, but it's weasley, and you know it. You violated her trust and you knew you were doing it.

Maybe the reason you don't feel the way you expected to is because you don't love or respect your wife as much as you think. You said "my wife is my friend and I love her as such". Really? Don't kid yourself. Your actions don't support that claim at all.

You may be a great guy temporarily suffering from narcissism and delusions of sexual enlightenment, but for those of us who have seen this song and dance before, it's just the typical post-infidelity rationalization-fest.

That's for her to decide, surely?

You hurt her feelings.

When the person you love best of all says: "Hey! You were such a Shit lover and a rubbish person, I had to get me someone else to make the beast with two backs with!" that's fuck-all to do with religion, but a great deal to do with personal rejection.

Oh, but you didn't say she was a shit lover and a rubbish person? No. But that's exactly how it feels to your Significant Other, who was then made to feel like an Insignificant Other.

You are not a bad person, but if you continue to deny the legitimacy of your wife's feelings of hurt and betrayal, I might have to revise that opinion. ;o))

You are NOT a bad person. What you did is the equivalent of an animal chewing off its foot when caught in a trap.

Like most TBMs, you no doubt married too young and under immense pressure.
Those are the reasons but,of course, they are not always an excuse.

However, most of us can understand what you were dealing with - a difficult marriage, 2 kids very close together with a TBM wife, while trying to shake off a religious cult.

You will now have to work through the divorce,unfortunately. It is not always possible to erase things done in the past.
But you CAN make the future better.

(bad choice) that can come back to cause a lot of trouble for you.
Some choices have some severe consequences.

Can't erase the past, but you can let go of it, and forget about it. What is done is done.

It's not the end of the world.

You have other reasons for divorce.

Well, let's see...

You are looking for absolution from an Internet message board.

The account name you chose for yourself was "Bad Person."

Pal, I think you already know the answer. And trying to get "votes" to justify your behavior from a bunch of anonymous people isn't gonna make you feel any better.

~VOW

+1

...and it sounds like you need a good therapist, not an internet message board.

I have no sympathy for cheaters. And I've been the one cheated on, and the one who did the cheating, so i've seen it from both ends and it doesn't make a difference. It's not okay. You made a promise to your wife to be monogamous, and you broke it. Period. Her TBM-ness may be obnoxious, but it doesn't give you an excuse to go fuck somebody else in a hotel room while she's at home taking care of your kids and folding your laundry.

Look at it this way, you had sex with a random woman that you don't know well. Then (presumably) you went home to your wife and acted like all was well until she figured it out. Do you know the myriad of diseases you exposed your wife to? Most are curable with some meds, but some of those could have left her infertile, or even killed her. You could have gotten this woman pregnant, then your kids would have gotten to look the proof of their dad's infidelity in the face at every family function.

Hopefully you at least had the common sense to wear a condom.

I agree that monogamy isn't for everyone. However, don't let a person believe you will be faithful to them alone if you aren't going to stick to it.

Are you a bad person? No. We all do stupid things, especially when we are facing a major life transition like leaving MoDom.

But if you think for one second that your wife owes you forgiveness or that you were justified in your cheating then you are a douchebag.

Divorce your wife and go sow your wild oats. Clearly being married is making both of you miserable.

HEY BAD PERSON --You must have loved her once and she may have loved you, aparently based on your church activity. However adultery always shows a lack of loyalty in you own character. You did not have to commit adultery. Now you want to cut and run, thus showing your true character, first to your wife and children, secondly damaging your own integrity .

Divorce her first and then play the field if you want to..

***Imagine if the roles were reversed and you truly loved her..Think of how you would feel if she was the one texting and contacting a man .. How would you feel towards her once she had slept with a guy***

She should kick your sorry ass to the curb and nail you for child support until both your children reach 18.. Something tells me that even if you marry again totally outside of any religion, when pressure comes again, you will find an excuse to bail out again - Come to think of it, what role do you intend to play in your children's future ? ..

Bad Person --NO --stupid person definitely YES. Don't act based on the Church, but man up for your family

JB

Unhappy people do things to try to be happy. Sometimes they make good decisions, sometimes bad decisions, and sometimes there are no good decisions to be made. The question I have about the affair is were you having an affair to stay in your marriage or to leave it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 09:26PM by robertb.

Having sex with some bar hag when you're married isn't a mistake - it's a choice, and an extremely selfish one at that. This doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you a dick. It also diminishes any legitimate gripes you had against your wife.

You don't get to excuse away your selfish behavior. It doesn't matter how lonely you felt, or how much you wanted to be heard, or how horny you were; you made a commitment to be monogamous with your wife. You're a goddamned adult, so start acting like it. You are responsible for taking care of your family, which often requires you to put your own wants and desires aside.

Cheating doesn't make you a bad person, but it does show a weakness of character. Please get your shit straightened out, and take care of your kids.