So I finally got my monitor cleaned off after it was locally flooded with coffee. Thanks Steve!

"Now, quit asking follow-up questions, since SC says they don't show respect for his beliefs. This is Sunday school class, for God's sake, not science class."

TheSkepticChristian is typical of all apologists. Slippery as a greased pig in a Cache Valley rodeo.

So here it is again if he or she will just come back. Did ancestors of America's indigenous people live through the flood?

If yes, was it because their spirits were animal and not spirit children of Elohim?

When Book of Mormon people came, did they marry with Mayan and other people? Did this bring spirit children from Elohim into bodies that had been animal?

TheSkepticChristian, if you want respect for your beliefs, answer without ambiguity.

One more point. Apologists have tried to minimize Joseph Fielding Smith's teachings about spirits of Black people being less valiant in the premortal existence.

Why the hell would mormons now try to give animal ancestry to America's indigenous people?

And why do mormons run from a conversation when questions get tough?

I'm not repeating old 19th century anti-mormon arguments. These questions are recent and deserve answers. Respect must be earned, but TheSkepticChristian ran away.

Someone better tell white-and-delightsome types like "SkepticPepticChristian" who are spouting this racist nonsense that it's ultimately bad for the bottom line--since a large portion of LDS convert baptisms derives from dunking the indigenous peoples of Latin America, then demanding that they tithe.

Idiots.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 11:18PM by steve benson.

because the SkepticChristian is an oxymoron. (could there be such a thing as an "oxymormon?")

Oh I remember, I also refuted this accusation by steve benson:

"I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it"

Its just a late 19th century, anti-mormon fabrication according to Todd Compton. (In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997), 195)

This quote came from an anti-mormon source, and its not a quote by Helen herself.

So I actually refuted 3 accusations, I am so sorry Steve, and I am just a simple apologists, and I am no scholar, no historian, I am not brilliant like apologist G. L. Smith, who will refute all of this very easily.

"Slippery as a greased pig "
Most ex-mormons I talk to in Youtube, just make ad hominem attacks on me and FAIR.

"but TheSkepticChristian ran away"
I don't run away from anti-thing, do you have any idea how many anti-mormon websites I have visited, I also read anti-mormon books, and I seen pretty much all silly anti-mormon evangelical documentaries. I left, because I ask for respect.

"When Book of Mormon people came, did they marry with Mayan and other people?"
That's what most scholars believe

"If yes, was it because their spirits were animal and not spirit children of Elohim?"

Animals are like Apes, Bigfoot. Of course Indians are not animals. All humans in this world are spirit children of God, that's what I believe, so don't ask me for scientific evidence.

"Apologists have tried to minimize Joseph Fielding Smith's teachings about spirits of Black people being less valiant in the premortal existence."

This is not an issue, its not LDS official doctrine. What the church teaches in the official doctrine. Even if the opinions or teachings of the prophets are correct, to get to official doctrine, its a process explained here:
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

"give animal ancestry to America's indigenous people?"
No, I think you misunderstood me, but ape-like creatures 2,000,000 years ago, I am pretty sure they were just animals.

"Did ancestors of America's indigenous people live through the flood?"
It was most likely a local flood. Baptism of the earth is not official doctrine. Official doctrine has never stop being official doctrine, and will never do.

Okay, if you want me to keep answering questions, please show some respect.

I've also been blinded by a belief that the big, dark and hairy Bigfoot is Cain (that's what President Kimball said, you know, talking about David Patton's experience in the "Miracle of Forgiveness") and that in the Pearl of Great Price God cursed the Pharoah with a black skin (that's what it says in the Pearl of Great Price, gosh darn it!).

Of course, I'm trying to keep my eyes shut to the truth because it's not something I know a whole lot about. In the meantime, FAIR is twisting everything, expecting me to parrot their propaganda and I'm trying to be a good Mormon by doing that but I'm here because I can't help myself and, well, I JUST CAN"T TAKE IT ANYMORE! I've been raised in this stupid stuff and it's really, really hard to find my way out.

HELP!!!

(And where does it say in the Book of Mormon that Lehi's family married Mayans--or that the Mayans were wiped out by a local flood somewhere south of present-day Mexico? I'm about to fall into a big mindless pit over this).

I'M GOING CRAZY!

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLP!!!!

(But please be nice to me. I'm just a brainwashed Mormon college kid who doesn't know any better).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:10AM by steve benson.

"Pearl of Great Price God cursed the Pharoah with a black skin "
Not true, Pearl of Great Price never mentions that black skin is is a curse.

"FAIR is twisting everything but I'm here because I can't help myself"
Its all perspective, but FAIR usually understands more than the ex-mormons, I am sorry but its true, even me, many things that I say, ex-mormons misunderstand me.

Book of Moses (Pearl of Great Price):

". . . there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people . . . (Moses 7:8)."

"And . . . they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them (Moses 7:22)."


Book of Abraham (Pearl of Great Price):

". . . from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land (Abraham 1:24)."

"Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, . . . Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, . . . but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

"Now, Pharaoh being of the lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, . . . (Abraham 1:26-27)."
_____


You should spend more time reading your scriptures and less time reading FAIR. They're lying to you.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:06AM by steve benson.

"When Book of Mormon people came, did they marry with Mayan and other people?"
That's what most scholars believe"

You want to qualify that, or are you just a giant joke now?

How are we supposed to respect "your beliefs" when you say such ridiculous things like this?

If you want respect, gtfo and go to priesthood meeting. This is a board for the recovery from mormonism, which means recovery from people like you. Asking us to respect you and what you represent is like asking a rape victim to respect their perpetrator.

"white-and-delightsome types like "SkepticPepticChristian" who are spouting this racist nonsense"

I am sorry, but I think you all misunderstood me, I never said that the Indians are animals.

white-and-delightsome, check Mormon. 9:6

"and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." 2 Nephi 26:33

. . . to describe the Lamanites--you know, those bad, cursed brown-skinned Book of Mormon people who you LSD-ed LDS-ers say are the ancestors of the Indians.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2011 11:54PM by steve benson.

"Check "white and delightsome." Wait. That was taken out of the Book of Mormon in the early 1980s. (n/t)"

Come on, that's too easy to respond to, this is Evangelical anti-Mormon propaganda.

I think you need to give FAIR a chance.

It was taken out because,
White = pure, in this scripture
nothing to do with skin
see for example, Mormon. 9:6

That's the way we see it, for the other few significant modifications, they were made by the Prophet Joseph Smith to clarify the meaning of the text, not to change it. This was his right as translator of the book.

Plus, the Book of Mormon still contains skin-color curses verses,

Again, you need to read your scriptures--not to mention your racist Mormon Church history--and quit relying on your next moves to be choreographed for you by FAIR.

What a robot.

If nothing else, read this, for gawd's sake:
_____

"White and Delightsome or Pure and Delightsome? - A Look at 2 Nephi 30:6"

By Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson

For much of its history, the Salt Lake City-based LDS Church edition of the Book of Mormon taught that dark-skinned Lamanites (Indians) would eventually experience a change in the color of their skin should they embrace the Book of Mormon. Except for a single edition (1840), 2 Nephi 30:6 has read:

"...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people."

In 1981, the LDS Church decided to change what Joseph Smith called "the most correct of any book on earth" by reverting to the wording of the lone 1840 edition. The word "white" was replaced with the word "pure." Some Mormons insist that this was a clarification since the word was never meant to refer to a person with dark skin pigmentation who would magically turn white based upon a conversion to the Mormon gospel; rather, it is claimed that the change referred to a cleaner state of heart. This assumption fails to explain (or counter) other passages in the Book of Mormon that still make a connection with "iniquity" and skin color. For example, 2 Nephi 5:21 still says:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

3 Nephi 2:12-15 continues to teach that dark-skinned Lamanites who converted unto the Lord had their curse "taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites."

That the context refers to skin color is verified by a number of LDS leaders including Joseph Smith. Mormon author George D. Smith notes that Joseph Smith was given a revelation which foretold of a day when intermarriage with the Lamanites would produce a white and delightsome posterity. George Smith wrote:

"This unpublished 17 July 1831 revelation was described three decades later in an 1861 letter from W.W. Phelps to Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith: `It is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity, may become white, delightsome and just.' In the 8 December 1831 Ohio Star, Ezra Booth wrote of a revelation directing Mormon elders to marry with the `natives'" (Sunstone, November 1993, footnote #5, pg. 52).

Second LDS President Brigham Young stated in 1859 that Lamanite skin color was related to transgression:

"You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Journal of Discourses 7:336).

At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians "are fast becoming a white and delightsome people." He said, "The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation" (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3).

During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and "several shades lighter than her parents..." He went on to say, "These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."

Kimball's comment sounds very similar to a curious comment made in a conference message given by Elder Eugene J. Neff in 1927. Referring to Hawaiian members, Neff stated:

"The first missionaries went from this section around to another little town on the east side of the island, and there they gathered in a grass hut one hundred people to hear the message of these strange white men, As they all sat around the mat and heard the voice of this missionary from Utah, they were transfigured before George Q. Cannon, and he saw ninety-seven of them become white, and three of them remained dark. He did not understand. He did not know why it was that three of them would remain dark and all the rest should become light. He received a partial answer to this manifestation when it was learned that ninety-seven of those people in meeting at this time joined the Church, became devout members, lived and died Latter-day Saints, while three of them never did. It is said that they will become a white and delightsome people. They are delightsome at present, and I believe they are going to become white. They are growing whiter from year to year. I have said to myself and to some of my intimate friends that I thought the Hawaiian people would become white and delightsome, through intermarriage. I do not know whether that is according to the doctrines of the Church or not, but they have married the oriental races and married white people on the islands to such an extent that today there are more half casts than there are pure Hawaiians" (Conference Report, April 1927, p.49).

LDS writer George Edward Clark gives a similar account in his book titled Why I Believe. On page 129 he wrote:

"The writer has been privileged to sit at table with several members of the Catawba tribe of Indians, whose reservation is near the north border of South Carolina. That tribe, or most of its people, are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Those Indians, at least as many as I have observed, were white and delightsome, as white and fair as any group of citizens of our country. I know of no prophecy, ancient or modern, that has had a more literal fulfillment."

It has also been taught in Mormonism that opposite repercussions could result when a white person abandons their Mormon faith. For instance, the Juvenile Instructor (26:635) reads,

"From this it is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness, and there can be no doubt that this was the mark that Cain himself received; in fact, it has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom his blessings have been withdrawn, have turned dark to such an extend as to excite the comments of all who have known them."

In 1857, Brigham Young declared that apostates would "become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Journal of Discourses 5:332).

To say 2 Nephi 30:6 was altered merely for clarification, and had nothing to do with skin color, is certainly not supported by comments from past LDS leaders, or from current readings in the Book of Mormon.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:09AM by steve benson.

I am sorry, but you didn't use official doctrine, I on the other hand used the Book of Mormon, and I can also prove with historical evidence that the translator, Joseph Smith was not racist
See below

Check out LDS Church president/territorial governor Brigham Young's 1852 sermon to the Utah territorial legislature where he declared that Blacks deserved no place in Mormon or national government:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/brigham1852feb5_priesthoodandblacks.htm


If you can somehow excuse, rationalize or explain away the above bigotry of "God's prophet," then you are worse than I thought.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:33AM by steve benson.

"And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.
"And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people."

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 30:6 - 7)

"If "white" = "pure," then why were the Jews--in the very next verse--not to "become white/pure" like the Lamanites?"
They shall, " scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes" "save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people." Its right there, its the same thing, White and delightsome, has nothing to do with skin, see Mormon. 9:6

You have got to be kidding me.White and delightsome has nothing to do with skin color???? What planet did you just come from?

During the years when the Indian Placement Program was going on,the prophet,(I think it was SWK) was very excited that the skin of the Indian children was turning whiter.He really believed,and expected all TBM's to believe,that the Indians were second class to the white race.

Just how many men of color have ever served in the First Pres,was a seventy,or was in the quorom of the 12?

Oh, but it's not in the Magic Quad, or the ensign so it doesn't count. He was just speaking as a man. You can't blame him, it was how he was taught. The lord tells us not to dwell on these things, dear. We'll understand it better in the next life.

Did I get all the excuses, or did I miss a couple?

Take the word "skin" and spell it. S - K - I - N. Now do a search of the word "skin" in the Book of Mormon to discover how nonsensical your arguments are.

Then repent of your dissembling and dishonesty.

"White = pure, in this scripture...That's the way we see it, for the other few significant modifications, they were made by the Prophet Joseph Smith to clarify the meaning of the text, not to change it. This was his right as translator of the book."

Of course that's how you see it. That's how you're told to see it. I used to think that too until I read Brigham Young's take on it and historically it meant skin according to CHURCH SOURCES specifically the Journal of Discourses. You don't seem to realize that this is not a board of anti-Mormons. This is a board primarily of former Mormons. We know what your arguments are. We used to make them ourselves. We have seen your side. You however have not seen ours.

You will not find sympathy here. See we can't come over to your boards because we'd be deleted and banned. Many of us have tried. You however are allowed to post here. Who is being more FAIR?

You are up against empirical, provable, verifiable evidence. Your opinion, interpretation and attempted obsurement of subjects you are clearly not well-versed in carries very little weight.

I am not intending to preach, but to answer to the accusation that the Book of Mormon is racist.

"dark and loathsome,"
dark because:"and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations," but Skin had nothing to do.

In fact, just like Bushman said, "...[T]he fact that [the Lamanites] are Israel, the chosen of God, adds a level of complexity to the Book of Mormon that simple racism does not explain. Incongruously, the book champions the Indians' place in world history, assigning them to a more glorious future than modern American whites.... Lamanite degradation is not ingrained in their natures, ineluctably bonded to their dark skins. Their wickedness is wholly cultural and frequently reversed. During one period, "they began to be a very industrious people; yea, and they were friendly with the Nephites; therefore, they did open a correspondence with them, and the curse of God did no more follow them." (Alma 23:18) In the end, the Lamanites triumph. The white Nephites perish, and the dark Lamanites remain."

The curse is this:
(2 Nephi 5:20) Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence. (2 Nephi 5:21) And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.

In fact, they were cursed, before they had black skin: "Alma 3:14 Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed"

The mark was black skin, but not a curse.

Lamanites and Nephites are equal: (4 Nephi 1:2-3)
"And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.
And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift."

Everyone equal: (2 Nephi 26:33)
"black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile"

Book of Mormon Condemns slavery
Benjamin has not suffered people to make slaves of one another, Mosiah 2:13
against Nephites’ law to have slaves, Alma 27:9

Also, I can prove with historical evidence that the translator, Joseph Smith, was not racist

. . . examples of which have just been provided to you, cited by chapter, verse and publication.

"Black skin but not a curse"? I see. Just window dressing.

I have never, EVER, seen such a True-Believing Mormon Robot such as yourself as intent as you are in keeping your head buried down to China.

To be sure, you are the worst case I have seen in some time among Mormon automons of willful, self-imposed, jaw-dropping ignorance--that is bordering at this point on exposing you as a liar.

Please get help.

Here.

Either that, or enter the General Authority lottery. First prize: a Second Anointing lobotomy to go with your original one.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:53AM by steve benson.

"since you refuse to read your racist Book of Mormon and your racist Mormon history . . ."
I don't refuse to read anything, I have talk to many ex-mormons before.

But I have demonstrated that the Book of Mormon is not racist, and you didn't refute what I stated above.

You refuse to put obvious Book of Mormon racism in the context of its own multiple verses preaching skin-color cursing of the "wicked," while completely ignoring the racist utterances and teachings of Mormonism's highest leaders (past and contemporary) who have based their blatantly bigoted declarations on the contents of canonized Mormon scripture.

You should be ashamed--if you are even capable of such an emotion.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:24AM by steve benson.

"own multiple verses preaching skin-color cursing of the "wicked,""
Okay tell me which ones, and I will demonstrate that they are not racists after all.

But why ignore the scriptures that I mentioned above??
I am sorry, but this racist accusation of scripture, is like a child's game (no offense)

I came to the conclusion a couple of months ago, that most ex-Mormons don't understand what official doctrine is. Most of them/you think that we are just cherry picking.

http://www.i4m.com/think/comments/mormon-racism.htm

And if you think you are in any position to tell any of us who have lived much of our lives in Mormonism and who have left for many reasons--including because of its blatant, sickening racist doctrine (and who, in my case, saw Mormonism from the inside out due to my grandfather's position as apostle and eventual Mormon Church president), you are the most arrogant and uninformed Mormon I have yet had the decided displeasure to encounter.

That is saying a lot.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:54AM by steve benson.

Benson has him against the ropes. Oh, no! Looks like it's gonna be another knockout for Benson! And the crowd goes wild! Well, most of the crowd. The TBM lurkers just sit there stunned!

Wasn't it President Kimball that was the overseer of the Lamanite Project?

And Joseph Smith had a remarkable plan of having the men marry 'lamanite' women to assist in the creation of a white and delightsome people.

"since you refuse to read your racist Book of Mormon and your racist Mormon history . . ."
I don't refuse to read anything, I have talk to many ex-mormons before.

But I have demonstrated that the Book of Mormon is not racist, and you didn't refute what I stated above.

Tell me that you've read what I've posted to you (in the form of a factual denial of what you have claimed here), regarding a curse of "blackness" imposed on the seed of Ham in the Pearl of Great Price. Then tell me it has nothing to do with skin-rooted cursing.

Any book--including the Book of Mormon--that has its God punishing supposedly wicked people with dark skins is, by definition, racist.

Don't you have any inkling of how racism has been, and is being, generated and perpetuated throughout human history on the basis of alleged racial superiority as supposedly indicated by skin color differences?

Are you THAT ignorant??

Good gawd, you are embarrasing--even for Mormons, if that is possible.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2011 12:50AM by steve benson.

Have you looked up all of the clear and plain references to SKIN cursings in the Book of Mormon? I'm sure you are aware of them.

You must have graduated from the PIOYA school of Mormon Apologetics.

PIOYA: When you're stumped for an answer, just Pull It Out Yer A**.

If you refuse to acknowledge them, we'll know conclusively that you are a dishonest flake.

3 Nephi 2:15
15 And their curse was taken from them, and their S K I N became white like unto the Nephites;

Jacob 3:8
8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their S K I N S will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God.

Alma 3:6
6 And the S K I N S of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.