The other day I posted a link on Facebook to a recent Pres. Paternoster blog entry about questioning church leaders http://stakepresident.blogspot.com/2011/08/can-members-question-church-doctrine.html . My tagline was a simple "Don't question!" This led to some discussion and me at one point — hoping to wrap up a respectful discussion with a TBM cousin — commenting that just as religious people say "hate the sin, not the sinner," I hate the church, not its members.

So then one of my TBM friends (who was my Sunday school teacher growing up) asks what I hate about the church.

My response:
Without getting overly specific, the church (not its members) has actively pursued, taught or knowingly permitted and therefore condoned many things I disagree with. Not all of these are unique to Mormonism, and I don't like any religion. Here's a partial list:
• Theism
• Lying
• Bigotry
• Racism
• Sexism
• Revisionist history
• Murder
• Mass murder
• Hypocrisy
• Polygamy and polyandry
• Child abuse
• Sexual abuse
• Psychological abuse

His response:
Sorry, but I do not see how you can say the church would actively pursue, teach, or permit anything in that list. We do have our free agency, but not without consequences. The 10 Commandments alone cover most of the items on your list. It is the members that are not perfect, as for the church, it is perfect! For it is Christ's Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't know what has happened in your life to make you feel this way, but I can tell you that those people that have influenced you into believing this way are not true disciples of Christ!

I want to respond and I can certainly tear his response apart, but I am interested in suggestions from this board before I do.

What I've got so far (just a basic list):
• Providing specific examples to support my list.
• Explaining the Ten Commandments don't cover sexism, racism, bigotry or polygamy, that four of them deal directly with theism and that Mosaic law actually called for punishments, consequences or behaviors that would today be considered abuse.
• Pulling the "by their fruits ye shall know them" card against his "the church is perfect" (one of my favorite rebuttals).
• Explaining that my decision to leave the church and my disdain for it came about from learning about the church's history (primarily from the church's own materials) and coming to the realization that the church lies about its history and tries to cover up or ignore anything negative it has done.
• Explaining that I don't believe in any gods and don't care who is or isn't trying to follow a man who allegedly lived in Jerusalem two millennia ago and went around doing magic tricks before making a grand exit by getting himself tortured to death.

But the thing is, I'm not sure that will do anything. I don't think anyone wins on something like this, but dammit, it's my wall. No one should get away with this shit without getting totally schooled.

So I put it to the board, how would you respond?

It's such a long list, I think I'd pick one item that is easily documented and start quoting doctrine. I can't believe he denied polygamy, so I'd start there.

I wouldn't go into detail. He doesn't care, and FB isn't a good place to hash this out. I would just point out that,

"The two men who influenced me to make these conclusions were Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young, and that (as you say) they were definitely not true disciples of Christ! The information comes straight from their writings and church records of their acts while they were alive."

Ooh, I like that. I may just steal it.

No, Facebook isn't the best place for this, but that's where it is, and I don't want him to get last word, if nothing else.

I love what you have so far and it's enough. You obviously think and write concisely. As long as everything comes from documented fact, he won't be able to handle it. Hit him with all of it in a lean way. You've already named a whole list. You have to address all of them now or he will think he got you.

You've only got to drop his jaw for one second for it to count as a win.

Use this quote from the current Aaronic Priesthood teaching manual to show that racist teaching still exists:
"We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally..."
(lesson 31; Choosing an Eternal Companion)

He denied polygamy huh? Well make sure to show him this website showing that Joseph smith practiced polygamy and promoted polyandry.

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/prf/individual_record.asp?recid=670090054

The church's own website shows that joseph smith married a 14 year old and other women who were already married to other men.

There is also some hipocracy in the fact that polygamy was made illegal in 1833, yet Joseph practiced it despite his belief to keep the laws of the land.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2011 07:28PM by pharrell.

Thanks for the links. I think I'll respond with the personal aspects, an overview of why I left and that it was by studying the church and its leaders that I left, that the seeds of doubt were planted while I was a missionary.

Then I think I'll add a link or two that illustrate my bullet point. And I will only link to sites that are owned and managed by TSCC.

Ask what about it makes you think it's Christ's church?

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Stress the hypocrisy. Ask him why Mormons shun family when they choose a different path in life. Ask them why they will not associate with nonmormons in their day to day life. Why do they exclude them from marriages? What are they afraid of.... One of them may lead them to be a true follower of JC????

I agree to stick with JS and BY and tell that by their actions and their words they were not true disciples of JC - and in fact behaved in ways that JC abhorred.

Also ask him why all the secrecy of the rituals in the Temple. JC did not like secrecy. Tell him that all should be welcome into a house of worship. And that is why the Temple is so secret - no worship is done there....only brainwashing.

It's your wall. You do what you want.

But if you need someone to help, just email me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2011 10:23PM by Raptor Jesus.

I agree with the above comments that boiling it down and focusing on one or two easily-proven historical lies is the best way.

Personally, my two favorites are the polygamy and the Book of Abraham. The former they have covered and the latter I like because FAIR can argue all it wants that 40 feet of the scroll are missing..it would still not be enough.. AND you have the alphabet that Joseph Smith prepared with his own hand, that the church still has, which shows the supposed meaning of each and every glyph and is COMPLETELY BOGUS.

If you needed to contradict "revelation" I would go with Mark Hoffman and the Gordon Hinckley wimp out bald-faced lie "I don't know that we teach that."

If you covered those three things and they couldn't accept it, there would be no point to arguing anything else.

Anagrammy

Anagrammy and Lord Raptor Jesus, thank you so much for the response. Both are great advice.

I may just take RJ up on the offer.

Great decision-- RJ is a returned missionary and there is nothing under the garments that he was not taught, did not investigate himself, or did not intuit.

Ana

The correct term you want is polygyny, not polyandry.

Actually I meant polyandry. Some of JS's wives were simultaneously married to more than one husband.

Frankly, TSCC has a history of all of the above: polygyny, polygamy and polyandry. It's all about the sex when it comes down to it, isn't it?

To be fair, I'm not sure if I ever put them on.

Here's mine:

1) The church demands at least 10% of your money (more if you consider fast offerings, missionary fund, etc) to be a "member in good standing," which has to be the most expensive church by the way, yet apparently spends very little of that on actual charity. In addition they REFUSE to release financial statements of the church, so the members who contribute all this money have no right to see how it is all spent.

2) The promoted polygamy for 70 plus years (nuff said)

3) The church refused to allow inter-racial marriage, blacks into the temple, blacks into leadership positions, and blacks the priesthood until 1978 (after the civil rights movement).

4) The church refuses to have open access to scholars and historians of ALL its historical archives (i.e. First Presidency vault).

5) The church provides the same old mind numbing repetitive lessons in church. Nothing thought provoking. Just the same "I know Joseph Smith is a prophet, I know the church is true, I will obey the church in all things, I can never do enough to satisfy THE CHURCH, keep praying obeying paying tithing go to the temple go to meetings. Its all about THE CHURCH not about principals. Not about teachings of Jesus or ethics or how to live a good life. Its all about brainwashing everyone into believing the LDS church is the true church and how to be more devoted to THE CHURCH.

6) The church promotes and makes its members spend countless hours doing repetitive rituals in expensive temples for DEAD people when it could be using all those man hours helping people who are actually ALIVE. Can't GOD take of the dead? Seems rather silly that God would actually have people waste all this time doing silly rituals to save dead people. God knows whats in their hearts. He doesn't NEED people to do some proxy ritual.

7) The church is obsessed with appearances. White shirts, ties, short hair, no tattoos, one earring per ear, and so on.

8) The church requires members to abstain from coffee and tea. Tea is actually good for you. Coffee is too if drank in moderation.

9) The church claims to be for the family yet takes so much of the parents time away from their children and spouses because of callings, meetings, and other church activities, etc.

10) Nothing is volunteer in the church it is all required. Callings, hometeaching/visitingteaching, meetings, and so forth are not volunteer. Missions are not volunteer. All of these are essentially required in the Mormon church to be a respected, good member in standing.

11) Non-member family is not allowed to witness the marriage of their own family.

12) The church can't seem to make up their mind about who is a Lamanite.

13) The church will excommunicate or "discipline" its members who think for themselves and talk about issues the church doesn't like. I.e. feminism, church history, etc. It basically censors its members and its own history.

14) The church's stance on gays

15) It applies ridiculous pressure and guilt on its missionaries to produce baptisms. Most of these baptisms do not result in long term active members.

16) Spending BILLIONS on a damn mall. When CHILDREN are starving to DEATH in Africa, the LDS church leaders decide to spend church money on a MALL.

I could go on about the church in past too:

1) The false doctrine of Adam God was taught by church leaders
2) The church leaders preached blood atonement
3) The church taught its people bloody "penalties' in the temple.
4) Constant changes in its teachings/doctrines. Makes you wonder what else they will eventually change.

I could go on but this is a start

My response to the old line, "The church is perfect, the members are not" is this-

A church is a body of believers. Without believers, a church is nothing. The leaders of the church, who are its believers, make the church what it is.

Oh, and one more thing that no one has mentioned yet.
The church as an institution, which claims to promote family values, is not really family-oriented when it excludes non-endowed teenagers and children from seeing the temple weddings of their older siblings. Same thing for converts. Their families are excluded from temple weddings as a matter of church policy. So, the church as an institution is not perfect.

"i'm glad the church is perfect for you - it's not perfect for me"

or simply (my favorite):

"i'm much happier since i left the church"

any TBM that wouldn't drop the conversation after that probably isn't worth the effort...

the ten commandments ARE sexist. There is more than one commandment about proper ownership of women and none about not raping them. There is not any rule against beating your wife. There are no rules against slavery, and in other parts of the bible there are rules on how to be a proper slave owner. Anyone remember how "righteous" lot was?

If your friend needs proof the church was actively racist...jeez. God decided that non-white skin was a CURSE. How is that not EXTREMELY RACIST? The policies they enacted after that make sense if you think being a person of color is a sign that your ancestors sinned against god. I never understood why the church took out the white and delightsome thing, the cursing via dark skin is so much worse.

I would go with that. Why is he not encouraged to study the Bible from contemporary and scholarly works? Why is he discouraged from it?

Why is he discouraged from using authentic church materials from his youth, and why has the Sunday School manual been sanitized as if to remove sacred teachings?

Why is it wrong for students to ask tough questions, and what does Milk before Meat really mean when members of his class have been there since childhood?

I'd ask him what he thinks about the restraints he is under when it comes to teaching the true Gospel of Christ, and why he would be reported to the Bishop should he deviate from this years approved materials.

Why did you leave the church? Because you discovered for yourself that those things that he is forbidden to use were the word of God not too many years ago, and I would even mention to him various statements from the church regarding the Curse of Cain, Blood Atonement and other controversial topics and how his grandparents would have been at perfect liberty to discuss and expound upon those topics.

As a teacher he should be someone who loves and values truth and facts. If his calling is such that facts and truth are to be kept from the student, then he is only a salesman whose job it is to keep the words and deeds of the Prophets out of public view.

Given the counsel that he undoubtedly receives, he knows that this is true, even if the implications are put ion a shelf. That's how I would approach it.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I invited Raptor Jesus over to my page. He went totally ape shit on my TBM friend's ass. I chimed in with a response of my own that really put him in his place.

Long story short, I got the last word and my TBM "friend" unfriended me. Looks like I stuck a nerve. That was kind of my goal. So I'll chalk it up as a win.

Could you post a copy of the conversation here? I think we'd all like to see Raptor Jesus going ape-shit on your "friend".

Here's the whole Facebook thread, preserved for all posterity. All names have been changed.

Original post:
Don't question!
Link to: LDS (Mormon) Stake Presidents Blog: Can Members Question Church Doctrine? An Answer From This Month'
stakepresident.blogspot.com

ExMo Friend:
How lovely!

TBM Cousin:
No where in that ensign article did it say "DON'T Question". It only states that if you do question to pray to God and ask him and to seek advice from your leaders and the Prophet.

NerdLinger:
Elder Ballard said, “We’ve got to be so solidly anchored in our testimonies of the gospel of Jesus Christ that, regardless of what may come next, we will not waffle; we will stand firm in our belief; we won’t question the doctrines that are part of our belief.”

TBM Cousin:
Yes, and I agree, but we can not get a testimony without asking questions, in fact, we need to ask questions, find the answers, and then, once we have the answers, we should stand firm in our testimony we have received.

NerdLinder:
I'll just have to disagree with you on that. To me "stand firm in your testimony" translates to "close your mind off to all the evidence that contradicts your preconceived notion, especially when it seems irrational." But that's just me.

TBM Cousin:
Thats fine, we don't have to agree on everything ;) I just believe it differently I guess.

TBM "Friend":
Once you have a testimony of the Church and the Prophet, you do not need to question Church Doctrin, the Lord will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray.

NeverMo Friend:
So, back to the point... what does one do when doctrine and reality don't match up?

NerdLinger:
You do the best you can with the best information you can find. And that means sources that both affirm and criticize what you think is true.

When you want to find out about Ford vehicles, you check with a dealer, but you also read Consumer Reports, check with current and previous owners and talk to a trusted mechanic.

As for me, I sent in my resignation.

Just a note, Pres. Paternoster is satire. But it's so true to reality that many readers fail to recognize it.

NeverMo Friend:
I know what you did. I want to hear what the apologists do.

Mrs. NerdLinger:
Stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalalalalala."

TBM "Friend":
Different people see things from different perspectives and experiences that shape their lives. What makes perfect sence to one person may not make any sence to another. To me, doctrine and reality always match up. As you prayerfully study the scriptures, youor mind is enlightened and it enables you to see things how they are, things become clear. Satan tries to distort things and confuse people. For the most part, most people I have seen that say negative things about the church or the Book of Mormon have not read or studied it for themselves, they go by what others have said. With something so important as your salvation, why trust in the arm of the flesh by taking someones elses word for it. Read it for your self, directly from the source.

TBM "Friend":
There is no witness until after the trial of your faith.

ExMo Vegan Lesbian:
If you keep posting this anti-Mormon rubbish on your page, I will be forced to delete you as a facebook friend. And then how will I be able to bear my testimony to you? Trust in His word: D&C 49:18. This verse just speaks to my soul and I think it will provide comfort to you in this time of tribulation.

Mrs. NerdLinger
[@NeverMo Friend], do you see how well [TBM "Friend"], whom I have never met, proves my point?

NerdLinger:
[@ExMo Vegan Lesbian], how dare you call the stake president's post anti-mormon!

[@NeverMo Friend], I respect your right to believe what you want. Even though I disagree with you, I hope your religion can provide to you what it failed to give me. The trial of my faith only showed me the futility of faith as a tool for discovering truth.

TBM Cousin:
Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't love you :) Hope you know that

NerdLinger:
Oh I know.

You know how religious people say "hate the sin, not the sinner"? I hate the church, not its members. I don't begrudge anyone their faith, but I am honest in disagreeing about it.

TBM Cousin;
And thus so am I, honest in defending it. LOVE YOU!

TBM "Friend":
Exactly what doctrine do you disagree with? What doctrine has caused you to go as far as to hate the church?

NerdLinger:
[@TBM Cousin] Thanks. Love you too.

NerdLinger:
[@TBM "Friend"] Without getting overly specific, the church (not its members) has actively pursued, taught or knowingly permitted and therefore condoned many things I disagree with. Not all of these are unique to Mormonism, and I don't like any religion. Here's a partial list:

• Theism
• Lying
• Bigotry
• Racism
• Sexism
• Revisionist history
• Murder
• Mass murder
• Hypocrisy
• Polygamy and polyandry
• Child abuse
• Sexual abuse
• Psychological abuse

TBM "Friend":
Sorry, but I do not see how you can say the church would actively pursue, teach, or permit anything in that list. We do have our free agency, but not without consequences. The 10 commandments alone cover most of the items on your list.
It is the members that are not perfect, as for the church, it is perfect! For it is Christ's Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I don't know what has happened in your life to make you feel this way, but I can tell you that those people that have influenced you into believing this way are not true disciples of Christ!

Raptor Jesus:
The Mormon church is "perfect"? Really? That's why the past self proclaimed prophets spoke so openly and with such hate against black people? Why they have been so homophobic now? Why so many Mormon doctrines have changed over time? Why they spend more money building malls and hotels than helping the poor? Why they tortured gays at BYU? Why they allowed little girls to be taken as multiple wives under threat of eternal damnation? Why they can't even be clear about what their own doctrines are?

Really?

And led by Christ?

Christ must be either really dumb or really lazy or really mean to let his supposed church pull the kind of ridiculous non sense that the Mormon church has over time.

NerdLinger:
[@TBM "Friend"] No, the church has done all of those things. Here's an easy one: Theism. The church teaches there is a god. I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in Mother Goose. And here's another easy one. The church has a history of polygamy, that's a historical fact. But did you know that Joseph Smith has 48 women sealed to him? What's more, some of them were married to other men at the same time they were married to him. So you can tick off revisionist history, hypocrisy and lying too. And if you need proof, just go see his pedigree (link provided) and map out who was married to who and when. It was a damn orgy!
(link to http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/prf/individual_record.asp?recid=670090054 )

NerdLinger:
Oh, and with some of the wives' ages, we'll add child abuse and sexual abuse to the list.

Should I go on? Danites. Mountain Meadows Massacre. Giving blacks the priesthood, then taking it away, then giving it back. Blood atonement. Evergreen. Illegal demolition of a private printing press.

I could keep going ... And I can provide solid references on every one of these. Most, I can point you at sites owned and operated by the church.

You wanna know the real mind-bender? My doubt in the church started when I was a missionary, when I prayed 14 times a day and when I was studying only the Standard Works, missionary library (Jesus the Christ, etc.) and the approved manuals published by the church. Those influences you speak of that are not true disciples of Christ? Their names were Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

Raptor Jesus:
‎"Satan tries to distort things and confuse people. For the most part, most people I have seen that say negative things about the church or the Book of Mormon have not read or studied it for themselves, they go by what others have said. With something so important as your salvation, why trust in the arm of the flesh by taking someones elses word for it. Read it for your self, directly from the source." This quote really struck a nerve with me. So much that I wanted to give it a little bit before commenting on it.

Raptor Jesus:
Because I've seen this kind of ridiculous, self-righteous, offensive, patronizing stuff before. Mormons can be so superstitiously offensive without even realizing it. As if everyone who disagrees with their racist, sexist, homophobic, jingoistic bullshit is simply deceived by some fictional character.

Raptor Jesus:
So, the rest of us who aren't Mormons - the 99.998% of the world are just being tricked. That we don't have the brain power to read the Book of Mormon and say, "Wow! The Mormon god causes skin color to change based on righteousness. That's awful." And that we haven't read about Joseph's two 14 year old wives and say, "Gross! Just like Warren Jeffs, and he's a goddamn predator." I have read the stuff. I know what Mormons have preached in the past and what they have hidden from even their own members, and what they preach now and will lie about in the future.

Raptor Jesus:
And that us non Mormons are just supposed to roll over and give this crap a free pass because it's "religion" and "sacred" to someone else. Well, too bad. I don't find racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. to be sacred.

TBM "Friend":
[@NerdLinger] when you get information contrary to the church, you need to check your sources. I used the link for the "individual record" above and it goes to a fake site. The churches site uses "HTTPS" not "HTTP" I realized that after I tried doing a search to find the information myself and could not find a match. Things are not always as they may seem.

TBM "Friend"
[@NerdLinger] I realize nothing I can say is going to change your mind, you are going to believe what you want to believe. I feel bad because I have known you since before you were one of my cub scouts and I have a lot of respect for your family. Please just be careful, it is very difficult to know when information is legitimate.

NerdLinger:
[@TBM "Friend"] I found record (with your https) that shows your prophet having 57 wives. Other records I found have him with 33, some with 34 and others with 45. I'm not doing your research for you.

Don't feel bad for me. I found out that the church is a sham, not only that, it's an abusive, lying murderous, bigoted, hateful organization.

You wanna go pray, pay and obey, that's fine by me. But I will never stop mocking, criticizing or working against the church. And you want to know why?

One word: LOVE

One day, someone in my family is going to realize that the church isn't what it claims. And on that day, I want them to know that I knew that years ago. I got out. For all the pain it caused my parents and family, for all the anguish it caused in my own life, I GOT OUT.

I am proud to say I am no longer a Mormon. For those who want out of the church, I will be that helping hand.

(link to https://www.familysearch.org/search/treeDetails/show?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.familysearch.org%2Flls%2Fpal%3A%2FMM9.2.1%2FSP6X-Q65 )

NerdLinger:
And one more thing, both sites are legitimate. The new Family Search site uses https. But on its homepage you can find a link to the old site, which uses http. Both are valid. Both are owned and operated by your church. You can find the same information on both sites. It's just organized differently.

You are right, things are not always as they may seem.

...that the bad things on that list were not just committed by random, isolated members. Rather, most of the listed items were committed by prophets, apostles, and the Church itself, acting as the Church. It is the Church itself that tries to buy up unflattering documents about early Mormon history, and then prevent access to them. What is the point of that, other than to hide information that would cast doubt on the divine origins of the Church?

It's good that you got Raptor involved--he has an evolved mind. My advice: be totally open. I had visiting teachers knuckling my door for years and years. "Not tonight," I would say, or "No thanks." They kept coming and coming.

Finally I opened the door to the home teachers one night, and I said: "I don't believe in fellow-shipping, and I'm not even capable of it due to psychological reasons."

It was the last time they ever approached my home. By the way, I had already resigned from the Salt Lake Church.