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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 10:28AM

There are theories about why Smith didn't father more children in his polygamist unions.

Here's mine: Looking at the list of marriages, most occured in 1842 and 1843. I'm thinking he was on a roll . . . .

I believe he was a skilled, charming, charismatic seducer (ie. womanizer) and that most of those 'marriages' were actually 'one night stands'. After convincing each woman of her special celestialness, he moved on. I don't know what would be the likelihood of pregnancy occuring with one sexual encounter but if he only had sex with each of them once or twice, there might not have been many resulting pregnancies.

I would imagine many of the women continued to hang on the illusion of their sacred union and pined for Joseph ('in sacred lonliness') even as he moved on to the next woman.

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Posted by: AnonyMs ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 10:30AM


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Posted by: derrida ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 10:35AM


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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 10:35AM

It also can't be ignored that John Bennett was excommunicated for seducing women and telling them that if they got pregnant from it he would give them medicines to produce abortions.

Put that together with the fact that Joseph Smith and John Bennett were really close, living together at that time, and both in the first presidency of the church (I mean think about it, John Bennett was like Dieter Uchtdorf today in position), and it doesn't take much thinking to put two and two together.

I think Joseph Smith was smart, and knew that he couldn't risk the celestial consequences of sex. John Bennett's known abortion methods certainly must have facilitated this.

But there is evidence that a couple of already-married women had daughters by Joseph Smith, which unfortunately can't be genetically proven, and raises more suspicion about WHY the only possible children are from married women? Oh wait, you don't need to abort and hide the evidence if there's another possible father!

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:13AM

obsessing on this.

There were over 200 men in polygamy in Nauvoo and many had children there with polygamous wives, including BY and John Taylor.

None of the 200+ polygamous families lived it like JS. They were just like the polygamists in early Utah, except it was done more in secrecy.

JS is the only one for whom it is claimed no sex went with polygamy, yet there is no documentation, no note from JS, no reason to believe he'd do it different than what he told all the others to do.

It's a nonsensical claim on the part of TBMs when we look at the bigger picture.

Instead of trying to prove how he did it, we can simply ask them to prove that he did it different from everyone around him. They have the burden of proof.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2011 11:14AM by Heresy.

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Posted by: frankiepup ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:43AM

Wait, so the church claims Joseph Smith didn't have sex with his polygamous wives? What?

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:46AM

frankiepup Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait, so the church claims Joseph Smith didn't
> have sex with his polygamous wives? What?


The church keeps silent on the matter. However many Mormon apologists infer he didn't or that it was only with a FEW of them.

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Posted by: Emma's Flaming Sword ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:47AM

I told my parents about Helen Mar Kimball, and they said that JS didn't have sex with any of his brides- problem solved.

Yes, they really believe that JS did not have sex with his brides!

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Posted by: frankiepup ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:50AM

That is...amazing. Wow. I mean, it's no secret Brigham Young had sex with his wives, didn't he have like a bajillion kids? But not Joe. A man known to be handsome, charismatic, and something of a womanizer; a man known to be a con and a flirt, married 27 women, many of them young and very pretty...and then kissed each one on the forehead and sent her chastely to her room without so much as a pinch on the butt.

What a guy.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 04:41PM

Emma's Flaming Sword Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I told my parents about Helen Mar Kimball, and
> they said that JS didn't have sex with any of his
> brides- problem solved.
>
> Yes, they really believe that JS did not have sex
> with his brides!

Back in the 1800s the Reorganized church, headed by JS's son and with Emma as a supporting member, claimed that polygamy was started by BY and not by JS. The Utah LDS Church countered by collecting affidavits from JS's plural wives. The affidavits pointed out that JS's plural marriages were consummated.

For TBMs to claim that JS did not have sex with his plural wives goes totally against the huge PR push by the LDS in the 1800s. But, remember, "things that are true are sometimes not useful." "I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize it." Yadda yadda.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 11:50AM

NOT having sex with the them raises more questions than if he did. The purpose of polygamy according to the BoM & D&C was to "raise up seed."

I personally think he didn't have many opportunities with these women. He was only married to most of them for a short time and if he did have sex with them, there's still only a small chance they would get pregnant. It has to be the right time of the month and even then, its only something like 25% chance.

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Posted by: jw the inquizzinator ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 12:33PM

10) Seer stones had unintended effect of neutralizing sperm motility
9) Prefered to play with the stone in his hat (wink wink nudge nudge)
8) Emma's suspicious lurking prevented more than drive by liaisons by Joe
7) The JS Rhythm Method...it's good to be a Seer
6) Earlier tar and feathering made JS infertile (ouch)
5) Used magical Juniper talisman as IUD
4) Used prophetic powers to correctly identify critical timings in relation to mechanical workings
3) Found ancient Lamanite usage for sheep/pig intestines.
2) All encounters consummated by spiritual oral option
1) Some guys can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 12:38PM

cant remember where i read that though!

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 12:37PM

Sounds reasonable to me. And yes, they would say it was their husband's even if they knew it may not be.

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Posted by: Thread Killer ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 01:07PM

Don't forget that these marriages were for forming "loose dynastic ties"....that's possibly my favorite nonsensical apologist phrase!

I hate to think what happened with the MEN he was sealed too....ick! :-) :-) :-)

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 01:36PM

Young newly married Joseph Smith & Emma got together for sex all the time, established their family and had (how many?) kids almost non-stop.

But Joe, being Joe, delighted in the very young single ladies. Maybe he had sex with a few, and decided to "marry" them so he could feel better about having cheating on Emma, and definitely so that if they got pregnant, he could "legitimize" the kids.

The married women of his entourage were no exception, especially if their husbands were away missionarying. Except that if THEY got pregnant, someone would have to explain the buns in the ovens. Joseph's solution was simple: He "married" them too.

Some of the pregnancies were likely VERY inconvenient. An angry husband, for example. Enter John Bennett with the "medicine" to make all of those babies (who knows how many there were?) go away.

He kept this all as secret as he could, until too many people found out he was the impregnator.

All this, along with his attempted financial trickery, caused the mob to appear at Carthage.

Makes sense to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2011 01:45PM by PapaKen.

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Posted by: jw the inquizzinator ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 03:04PM

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97may/abortion.htm

"...UNTIL the last third of the nineteenth century, when it was criminalized state by state across the land, abortion was legal before "quickening" (approximately the fourth month of pregnancy). Colonial home medical guides gave recipes for "bringing on the menses" with herbs that could be grown in one's garden or easily found in the woods. By the mid eighteenth century commercial preparations were so widely available that they had inspired their own euphemism ("taking the trade"). Unfortunately, these drugs were often fatal. The first statutes regulating abortion, passed in the 1820s and 1830s, were actually poison-control laws: the sale of commercial abortifacients was banned, but abortion per se was not. The laws made little difference. By the 1840s the abortion business -- including the sale of illegal drugs, which were widely advertised in the popular press -- was booming. The most famous practitioner, Madame Restell, openly provided abortion services for thirty-five years, with offices in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia and traveling salespeople touting her "Female Monthly Pills."..."

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Posted by: jw the inquizzinator ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 03:43PM

http://www.connerprairie.org/Learn-And-Do/Indiana-History/America-1800-1860/Women-s-Health.aspx

"...Abortion, however, was not considered a significant "means of family limitation" during the first third of the century. It was mainly viewed as a way of avoiding the scandal attached to an illicit affair or birth out of wedlock. However, by the late 1830s a change in the type of person seeking abortions and, and the reasons behind it, became evident. The rising abortion rate of the period probably reflected a desire on the part of married women to limit family size. It is estimated that the abortion rate jumped from one abortion in every 25-35 live births during 1800-1830 to one in every 5-6 live births by 1850. These figures may be a bit high (evidence is still sketchy), but are indicative of a trend.

"As the above indicates, abortion, like birth control information, became more available between 1830 and 1850. That period saw a mail order and retail abortifacient drug trade flourish. A woman could send away for certain pills or discreetly purchase them at a store. Surgical methods were "available, but dangerous." This openness and commercial availability was mainly a feature of northern urban areas. Like much other technological and cultural change, it was later in its arrival in the midwest, and the average midwestern woman likely had a more difficult time in obtaining an abortion than her eastern, urban counterpart if she desired one.

"It was not, however, impossible. Such information and abortifacients were within reach of a woman if she grasped hard enough. Herbal abortifacients were the most widely utilized in rural, nineteenth century America. Again, networking and word-of-mouth broadcast specious methods. Women who relied on such information sometimes resorted to rubbing gunpowder on their breasts or drinking a "tea" brewed with rusty nail water. Other suggestions included "bleeding from the foot, hot baths, and cathartics." Midwives were thought reliable informants and were wont to prescribe seneca, snakeroot, or cohosh, the favored method of Native American women. Thomsonians claimed the preferred "remedy" was a mixture of tansy syrup and rum.

"More reliable sources of information were the ever popular home medical books. If a woman knew where to look the information was easily gleaned. One book, Samuel Jennings' The Married Ladies Companion, was meant especially to be used by rural women. It offered frank advice for women who "took a common cold," the period colloquialism for missing a period. It urged using cathartics like aloe and calomel, and bleeding to restore menstruation. Abortion information was usually available in two sections of home medical books: how to "release obstructed menses" and "dangers" to avoid during pregnancy.

"The latter section was a sort of how-to in reverse that could be effectively put to use by the reader. The most widely consulted work, Buchan's Domestic Medicine, advised emetics and a mixture of prepared steel, powdered myrrh, and aloe to "restore menstrual flow." Under causes of abortion to be avoided, it listed violent exercise, jumping too high, blows to the belly, and lifting great weights. Clearly, any woman wishing badly enough to abort could find a solution to her dilemma, without relying on outside aid. If she wished to rely on herbal remedies, they could be easily obtained. Aloes, one of the most widely urged and effective abortifacient, were regularly advertised in newspapers as being available in local stores....."

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Posted by: Lost ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 01:55PM

I think its one of the primary reasons Joseph Smith went after MARRIED woman with husbands that were still alive and kept the relationships secret.

That way, any offspring born by the woman would be considered her and her husband's child and not Joseph Smith's. Since the union between Joseph Smith and these women were secret, most of the husbands didn't know and those that did know didn't care because they got some payoff from the prophet, either in stature, callings or some blessing in the Celestial Kingdom.

So you can't use the argument "Where are Joseph Smith's children if he practiced polygamy/pollandry/plural marriage" because he set it up so there wouldn't be any traceable to him.
This is the way a predator operates. He wants everything secretive and with total deniability.

If Joseph Smith really thought God demanded plural marriage to be a celestial law then why not practice it openly and honestly? The only reason you hide something is because you know it won't be approved of, so this to me is proof he knew it was illegal as well as immoral. Emma certainly wasn't a fan of it.

Plural marriage is simple a cover for an amoral man who wanted to continue his practices. The man is a sexual predator, period.

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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 02:04PM

I still have a sense that he moved from woman to woman serially and did not actually have ongoing relationships with the women he 'married'.

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Posted by: Steve ( )
Date: August 22, 2011 02:06PM

of years. It's only a mystery if people think that they were invented in the 20th century.

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