Since most of you on the board have, at one point in your lives, been a believing member of the church with "knowledge" that the ChurchCo was true, I'm hoping someone might be able to throw me some ideas on how to discuss doctrine and express my views to a TBM without being offensive or overly confrontational. The TBM GF and I are trying really hard to just be friends because she badly wants to be temple worthy again. God do I hate that word. Why do they have to keep pounding into her head that she isn't "Worthy?" Why can't she just be not temple certified or something. Like the girl doesn't have enough problems with feeling like she's not good enough already. But anyway, since it turns out we're not actually all that good at keeping our hands off each other in close circumstances, and since even though I think it's dumb I still support her in her desire to dress up like a baker and do handshakes through a veil, we've been doing a lot more talking lately. Since I'm super into religious studies, and obviously weirdly fascinated by the Morg, we've gotten into discussions about the LDS beliefs pretty frequently lately.

Now, I'm not so much good at sugar coating things. I'm blunt to the point of being abrasive, although I do try and remember to be sensitive in how I say things. I'm just not good at hiding what I really feel (reason number one I could never be a Mormon). Recently I've made comments regarding how the church lies about and covers up its history (met with shrugs and subject changing, after she realized that I had more info on it than she did), about the waffling on doctrine and beliefs, about the "mark of cain" institutionalized racism crap, and have gone so far as to call Brigham Young a psychotic asshole and a piece of shit. I wasn't trying to start a fight or make her angry or anything like that. We were just on the subject and my word vomit got the better of me. For her part, she didn't get angry or storm out of my house or anything like that. She did the token "Put it on the shelf" thing and said she only concerned herself with the current prophets and that all the rest was just stuff she'd have to ask god about when she got to heaven. For my part, I didn't tell her that was retarded, but rather accepted her response and respectfully moved into less volatile territory.

I guess I don't know how to support her at this point. I know she's not happy. I know she struggles with depression and stress and low self-esteem and a chronic need to please everyone to the point of her own detriment. As an outsider it's blindingly obvious that ChurchCo and her insanely suffocating/controlling TBM mom are major factors in her unhappiness. There's just so much pressure coming at her from all sides. Why isn't she looking for a new husband? Why did she miss a FHE? Why didn't she go help her aunt get her landscaping done in between bible study and relief society? Why is she spending time with that evil heathen lesbian girl again? IS SHE REMEMBERING HER STANDARDS???? It's exhausting just to watch. I can't even imagine the toll it must take on her.

There's a part of me that wants to just back off and leave her alone. Not like blow her off or anything, but just let her do her thing and if that thing winds up at my doorstep then I'll always invite her in. I don't want to be another point of stress, which I thought I wouldn't be anymore if we dialed back to being just friends, but apparently just the fact that I'm such a potentially bad influence is enough to make her scared to let on when she's spending time with me. So now I don't know if my friendship is vital to her happiness, or just slightly helpful to her happiness, or actually detrimental to her happiness. Should I be reaching out more and reminding her (subtly of course) that there's life outside of Singles Ward and it's okay to be friends with apostates?

I know that she's a grown woman, and that until she gets out from under her mother's thumb there's not much that's going to change, but I do want to be a good friend. But... There is a part of me that gets sort of butt-hurt about how much time she spends going to church functions to try and make friends because she doesn't like or hang out with anyone from church. Not that I'm going all Single White Female and don't want her having other friends. It's just that I'm already her friend and we have a blast together (even when we're not committing mortal sins) so when she has to bail on me two hours early so that she can go to some Singles Ward function, and her reasoning is that she really needs to make some friends because she doesn't have any friends... Well... It stings a bit. Because she has lots of friends, it's just that none of us are church friends. So, are we not good enough because we don't go to her church? Am I reading too much into this and being a stupid girl about it all? Or is this one of those things that happens with BIC Mos? Do non-church friends not really count in the same way? Would your closest apostate friend still be below the creepy dude who smells like cheese but attends sac meeting on the friendship totem pole?

Sorry for rambling. It's late and my sleep schedule has been about nine hours off for the past couple weeks, so this is the hour in which my inner monologue gets really really rambly. And since this is what it's been rambling about for the past few hours, I figured RFM was the best place to unburden myself. Any ideas anyone? Do I back off and let her go back to her molly-mo world unabated? Do I keep making contact so she knows that I care and I'm her friend? Am I always going to feel like an outsider who isn't good enough because I wear cute underwear and drink coffee?

Nothing you say or your attitude towards mormons will change anything. For one, I was the girlfriend at one time (hetero) who just couldn't see through the bullshit. I just NEEDED to believe. I gave up who I considered at the time "the love of my life" and waited for a worthy mormon man. I never fit well in mormonism as hard as I tried--especially in the singles group. I wasn't willing to play the games. I'm sure you've read my story--I married someone gay (I had to save him--they told me I did at least).

Now I'm with the guy I gave up YEARS AND YEARS AGO--he tells his dad (who knows I'm mormon and he hates mormons as his great grandfather was a mormon and was ex'd by Brigham Young)--he tells his dad that "he converted me."

Now--after my daughter was more anti mormon than I was, she went back 5 years ago (or was it 6 now?). She is OVER THE TOP mormon and she refuses to listen to anything. We've come to some kind of truce. I listen--she talks. My son says I shouldn't let her talk about it because she thinks I still believe. She can think what she wants.

She will have to figure it out herself. She is not happy as a mormon. SHe convinces herself she is. She tries her damndest to do everything perfect and she has gone from a very pretty, happy, well-rounded person to an uptight, molly. (Her looks have actually changed.) It is really rather "sad." BUT she is at a better place than her agnostic brother--so what can I say.

The thing I've noticed is that it doesn't matter what I say, what I've been through, etc., etc., they have to figure it out themselves. I believe you will get more mileage out of just being supportive. My daughter finds Utah mormons exasperating--so she is very seldom here. She is in Alaska right now working (and has for the past 4 summers). She lives in TEnnessee with her convert mormon friend she met in Alaska the rest of the year to get away from Utah. (You'd think that'd be a clue?) BUT I am very vocal in terms of "I'm a sinner." I don't hide my life from her--it is right there. Her mother is an adulteress. Her dad is gay. Actually, I have it on good authority that she likes the mileage she gets from her family situation.

Just be supportive. Don't give her any facts. FActs would have never made any difference to me. It will be life experience that willf inally get her out if she gets out.

May I ask--has she been to the temple before? It seems she was married before. This is really tough for her. It is one thing to be a straight mormon--and another to be lesbian or bi (whatever she thinks she is)--and to have your TBM mother trying to save you? What a pain in the a**!

and that is when I said "whatever she thinks she is"--I couldn't remember if she had determined she was bi or lesbian--that is the only reason I said that. I thought the way I stated it sounded like I didn't "believe" her--oh yes, I believe her. I'd tend to lean more towards lesbian, but that is my own personal opinion from reading your posts--and given most of my friends are gay, then I have no "attitude."

BUT it occurred to me--I just went to check my e-mail after posting this and there was an e-mail from lulu.com where I bought a book a while back for my ex. It is called, I believe, "Perfect: The journey of a gay mormon." EXCELLENT BOOK. EXCELLENT. I bought it off lulu.com You might want to buy it to read yourself or you can give it to her to read. Steve Benson posted about this guy a while back and I purchased the book. I think it will be very cathartic for you and for her--it was even for me.

I didn't take it that way at all. No worries. I can only answer that as well as I know it, and since I can't read minds these answers may be incorrect. She's been to temple. Been on a mission. Was married in the temple (he went apostate and starting having an affair and they divorced). I'm the only person she's ever broken the law of chastity with, and the only girl she's ever done ANYTHING with. She says I'm the only girl she's ever been attracted to, but it's possible she's only ever been attracted to one girl because she never let herself explore that side of her sexuality before. She says she's absolutely still attracted to guys, although word from my other Mormon friend is that sex was a major issue for her and the hubby while they were married. Direct from her, she only did it because she thought it was her duty as a wife, but she never enjoyed it. So... Could be signs that she's a little gayer than she wants to admit, but it could also just mean that her hubby wasn't any good at it. So, it sounds to me like she's bi, but I find it entirely possible that she's not nearly as into guys as she wants to believe she is.

All the relationship stuff doesn't really matter though. We were not planning on this being long term, and it wasn't, and that's fine. The transition from dating to friends was fairly easy, actually. What's tough now is that I don't know how to be her friend anymore. I always feel like I'm not measuring up because I'm not on the path the salvation. I don't want her thinking that I'm backing off because I'm not getting any, because that's absolutely NOT what's happening here. I guess when we were dating I expected her to sneak around and keep me separate from the church friends and all that, but now that we're just friends and not doing anything we have to hide the secrecy makes me feel like she's ashamed of me because I'm so damn unworthy. And that part sucks.

so I can understand the confusion you are going through. I like wine country girl's answer.

What I have had to do is just step back and if my daughter wants to spend time with me, then I spend time with her. She lit into me on Christmas Eve because I am willing to forgive her father, but not the church, and she tends to believe I just never felt the spirit like she has. I'm just here for her if she needs me and I let her go to her mormon mothers for her mormon issues. I can tell you that it has been VERY PAINFUL and I'm sure it will be painful the day she gets married (if she marries in the temple) because one of her mormon mothers will be with her. All you can do is go ahead and live your life as you see fit and not worry about what she is thinking. It isn't easy, but this is THEIR PROBLEM--not our's.

You have an "out"--you don't have to be part of her life ifyou so choose. I know I don't have to be a part of my daughter's either. It is hard to explain the mindset of mormons. I think reading here has probably helped you understand her better. I know there is no "convincing" any mormon of anything if they don't want to hear it.

My daughter, being 25 and never married, already has many strikes against her. Does your friend realize how many strikes she has against her? AND if she is lesbian, how unfair it will be of her to marry someone else? The book I suggested talks about this guy being unable to go through with getting married even before he accepted that he was okay just as he is.

My suggestion is to just be her friend. This is a journey she has to make all by herself. And I don't think there is a more fucked up mindset for GLBT as mormonthink.

I keep going back to working and then I think about what I've said.

I know you guys are just friends now and you don't expect anything else from the relationship.

For me--just stepping back and letting my daughter do it her own way, come to me when she needs me, and go to her mormon friends when she thinks they "have the answer"--it causes a lot less stress. That is what has worked for me. It took me a while to get here, though.

That part I understand already. Not that I don't get intensely frustrated when she clicks over into MorgBot mode and refuses to process information, but I know better than to try and fight her on any of it. The funny thing is, one of my good friends since high school is a Mormon. BIC, whole family of Mormons, dad is a higher-up, all that stuff. The two of us will occasionally discuss our religious views, but I've never been frustrated with her for believing the same stuff. I was trying to figure out why, and I realized it's because she's HAPPY. Not like, fake Morg happy. Really, genuinely happy. So why would I care what she believes or how she worships? I think it bothers me so much with the girl because she's miserable and drained and constantly told she's not good enough. If she were happy and took joy in her faith then I think it'd be a lot easier for me to support it.

I guess I'm dealing with my own guilt issues over everything though. Partially because the poor girl never gets a break, and while I know she's not my responsibility, she is my friend. I don't want her thinking that I got what I wanted from her and now she doesn't matter. So I feel like if I back off then I'll just be feeding into that belief that I wouldn't stick around if we broke up. And I know I can't control what she thinks or feels, but it seriously drives me nuts that she might think that about me.

Cut your losses and go be you! She has a long journey ahead to self-discovery which has been railroaded by LDS, Inc. But YOU have a life of love and real companionship waiting. She may return to you in time, when she's ready. But not now. Now is your time.

How about some straight forward honesty?

"I'm concerned about you and your involvement with the church. I believe it does more harm to you, and how you feel about yourself, than good, and I feel like I can't sit back and silently let that happen. Especially when I feel like I'm put on the back burner for anything church related. I care about you. But this isn't working for me as I feel restricted, and overlooked. Please know that I will always take your calls, but I won't be calling for a while."

I mean, maybe those aren't your exact sentiments, but at the heart of it, I think it is about accepting where she is (not agreeing with it, but acknowledging what it is), while setting a boundary for where you are.

I hope this helps in some way.

I will probably do about half of that. I don't think it's my place to tell her that church is making her miserable. Deep down, somewhere past the conditioning and indoctrination, she knows what makes her unhappy. Me telling her that is just going to piss her off, and rightly so because I have no business saying she isn't happy in the Morg.

I do need to have a serious talk with her about never feeling like I'm worthy of being her real friend, because I'm not a church person. I'm just working on a direct yet non-abrasive way of saying what I need to say.

I suppose I'm comign from this from the angle of - if you had a fried that was drinking too much, or in a relationship that diminshed who she was, would you let her continue to slip away because you don't want to hurt her feelings?

I'm not saying it's easy to say "Hey, this is what I see and I'm concerned" but neither is seeing those things and remaining silent over them. At least saying something provides the option of solution seeking.

"I see you get a lot of pressure from people to be certain ways, and I'm sensitive to being yet another one of those people. However, I see you trying to fit into a mold that doesn't seem to work for you and all I would like to see you be is you."

I can respect that those things are hard to say, though, and don't mean to put you on the defensive (if I have). You need to find your own comfort level. I'm just trying to open up a potential other way to address something that you clearly feel deeply over. And more and more, if I can't be honest about my feelings, I don't want to "play" if you know what I mean.

I totally understand. I just know that it's a useless topic to bring up. Arguing logic vs faith with a Mormon is about as useful and fun as bashing your face into a brick wall. I've had talks with her about the way her mother controls her and about how I don't like her using the word "Unworthy" to describe herself, and little stuff like that. Maybe some CogDis will sneak in and maybe it won't, but if I come at her with, "I think the church is hurting you" then any ability to listen to anything I say after that will instantly be lost. Morg defense conditioning at its finest.

I would love to get through to her. I'd love to see her happy, because I've seen her happy and it's amazing the difference between that version of her and the version I see the other 95% of the time. I wish this were a problem with alcohol or something like that. We could have an intervention...

I think I'm confused. ;-) I went back to re-read what the sitation is as I try to be offer my persepctive from an informed (as much as possible given the nature of a forum) place so in re-reading I'm left wondering - what is it you are looking for? I see the original question is about being supportive but not disingenous but is that possible at this point? Supporting her involvement with the church (knowing it's history, knowing how it changes her) isn't really an option, is it? That's where I was originally coming from, I think. You don't want to be dishonest, yet you don't truly support her current choices. So either you suppress yourself, or you say "hey. I can't really do this." and very few of us want to take that option because it feels intolerant, or unfriendly, which are big cultural no-no's.

Again, I think it really does come down to boundaries.

Since I already likened the situation to someone with a drinking problem, I'll use my experience with my brother as an example. (Full disclosure - I'm 5+ years sober, and 15+ inactive, so I know both sides of each coin).

For years I listened to, commisserated with, and supported my brother through his increasingly dangerous drinking problem. In an effort to be a loving and compassionate sister, I would listen to him complain about his life without challenging him. at a certain point, it got to be incredibley uncomfortable to me to do so because I was being disingenuous. I fully believed that if he quit drinking, and got into some kind of recovery, most of the things that he complained about - money issues, relationship stuff, insomnia, depression, etc. - would, in time, feel better if it weren't for the booze. So I tried to gently encourage him to stop. "yeah, I should," but nothing ever changed.

I got a little more bold with my attempts to encourage sobriety. No dice. Somewhere along the way I decided that until he was willing to help himself, I was no longer willing to listen to the sob stories. That was my boundary. I didn't make an ulitmatum - Quit drinking, or we're not on speaking terms! - but rather - Until you are willing to explore solutions, I can't do this anymore.

The difference may be subtle, but it's huge. I'm not going to be more invested in his well-being than he is! Especially in a totally one sided relationship. He never seemed terribly concerned about my life, or what I had going on.

The circumstances are, obviously, completely different but some of the same things apply - setting boundaries, expecting more out of a relationship and the willingness to walk away if our needs aren't being met, being honest, and maybe more than anything, finding acceptance for myself over what I feared was "intolerance" or "being judgmental." After all, those are Mormon things to be! *sigh*

You're not a bad person if you decide that a particular relationship isn't meeting your needs. You've been clear that it's not about the cooling of the physical relationship, it's the emotional one that's lacking. Who wants to stick around and wait for the fair-weather friend to decide the weather's just right to hang out?

So back the beginning of this post of mine - If you're hoping to find a way to be tolerant of something you just can't tolerate, let yourself off the hook. It doesn't make you "intolerant," it makes you a woman with convictions and there isn't anything wrong with that. <3

And if I'm way off base, at least know I offer all if this with care. :-)

you have a false hope that she will choose to be happy. She probably wont. If she isn't talking to you openly about resigning, I'd say stay away from her. It's hard, but the relationship is only bringing you both pain. Life sucks, I know.

" ...but now that we're just friends and not doing anything we have to hide the secrecy makes me feel like she's ashamed of me because I'm so damn unworthy."

Relationships of any kind that must be kept secret aren't healthy relationships in any stretch of the imagination.

and want to help her in any way that you can.

But honestly, reexamining religious beliefs is a tough road that people have to CHOOSE to take. And it's hard to take it when they feel inherently unworthy. They think their doubts are because of their imperfections. You might want to read Steven Hassan's books "Combatting Cult Mind Control" or "Releasing the Bonds", if you want more info about how to help cult members overcome the manipulation.

On the other hand, I'm kind of worried about YOU. Ditching you at the last minute for church activities shows a lack of consideration for you. Hiding your friendship also shows that. She may just be a weak person, caving and going at the last minute, but you said that it kinda stings you when it happens. Regardless of her reasons or weaknesses, you still deserve better treatment than that.

Considering the kind of relationship you had, she probably sees you as a source of shame and temptation, and yet she wants to be with you. She's probably very conflicted. But again, regardless of HER hangups, YOU deserve to be treated better.


Please take care of yourself.

Thanks for your concern. I actually grew up in a freaky religious cult. Got the home-schooling and no doctors and prayer heals all things and god blessed us with AIDS to cure us from homosexuals crap pounded into my head for my entire childhood. I understand cult programming to a point, but I think that I lack the gene for mindless subservience, because I had denounced god and the cult and everything my parents taught me before I hit puberty. And of my own accord, since my parents went to extreme lengths to make sure there were ZERO secular influences in our lives.

I'm not too worried about me. My self-esteem is pretty bloody high and I have an awesome circle of friends and some amazing family members and I'm actually pretty damn happy with my life. This girl just activates the protector in me. She's so programmed to do whatever pleases everyone else, and watching the happiness drain out of her while she fake-smiles and agrees to do whatever anyone asks of her just breaks my heart a little. I want to beat all these people off with a bloody great big stick and just tell them to let her alone to live her life. I know I can't do that, but I feel like I'm the only person in her life that wants her to be happy instead of just wanting her to look happy so she reflects well on everyone else.

You will certainly receive a good number of advice from more articulate members of this group. I can only tell you what I know. And simply put, you really can't lead anyone out of the church or change their minds about how badly it's affecting them. They have to make that choice on their own.

Surely there's a few Golden Critical Thinkers out there (as opposed to the Golden Contacts of mishies) who were already starting to think out of the box. Many go it alone, some just need a nudge or a simple question to get the engine running.

As for me, I was suffering terribly from low self esteem brought about by the constant indoctrination that whatever I did for, with, or about the church has ZERO impact on God. You know, that "after all you can do"...you're still not worth shit? For some reason the asshat couldn't be satisfied with anything his creations did.

Ever so slowly I started reasoning within myself that many of the teachings were oh so illogical. At first I was mad at said asshat. Then I went through a brief phase of "you know what, this is shit. I don't believe you", referring to God. My eureka moment came about when I finally took said asshat out of the picture, and.....EVERYTHING made sense all of a sudden! NO GOD explained all the needless suffering, the pointless sacrifices one made in being a TBM, and of course the fucking nutcase of polygamy.

I think you are being supportive by being there for her, it seems you make yourself available when she needs you and when she has a church thing to do she takes off. I think this is probably why you may feel unappreciated.

I understand she is in this conflict of what I must do (church and temple marriage) and of what she likes to do and would like to continue doing (her life outside the church and its rules). Only she can figure out her path. She is in this vicious circle of church and you, and I think you're enabling the situation by bein part of the circle as well.

I like beaulands advise, you need to express how you feel and she must face the fact that she cannot live going back and forth between church and her non-church life.

Or you can just take a more casual attitude. Be there when she needs and continue with your life when she leaves. If she sees you going on with you life without caring about her church life anymore, she may want to know what happened.

Good luck,

D

Two words: Road trip. This girl needs to go try to stand up on a surfboard in Cali. She needs to fall asleep on a beach in Mexico. She needs to be driving on the desert at sunrise. Capiche? Get her out of town before she goes stark raving mad.

So am I. You want to rescue her and you can't. Nothing feels quite so helpless as that feeling. I think you are a great friend for caring, but the only thing you can do for her is to be there when she needs you.

I actually have a mormon friend--seems over the top TBM. She has a perfect family. Her 5 children are all temple married, have great careers, lawyer, dentist, navy seal, a zillion grandchildren. She even went on a couples' mission and came home early. We don't "socialize" per se--I am her "dumpee" friend--and I don't mind. She and I have been friends for 25 years--and she plays the part for her LDS friends and I'm the one she tells the truth to. When I tell her my isseus with the church--she says, "I don't blame you."When I told her I no longer believed, she said, "I already figured that out."

BUT when she isn't playing the role, she can't get off the bed--and she is on antidepressants, too. SHe has the perfect mormon life and she is SO UNHAPPY--but I just have to let her do her thing. I can go for months without hearing from her becuase she is so depressed. I used to try to call her and take her places when she was like this--and it never worked. So I wait to hear from her and then I do what I can to help her. Mormonism makes her SO UNHAPPY--and it also made my mother unhappy.

I would love to take her on a road trip, but she has a lot of backbone to grow before she'd be willing to tell her mother than she'll be going away overnight with me. Her mom thinks I'm the antichrist and I'm gonna break up their eternal family. That's my goal now though. I will get her away from all this crap for a few days, even if it takes forever to get there.

As for being a "fixer"... I'm usually not. I have this fiercely protective streak that comes out occasionally though. Certain people just activate this uncontrollable urge to take care of them, and I don't know why. It's rare, but when it does happen I can't stand watching said person hurt. And she brings that out in me really bad. So I want to protect her, yes. I think that's a little different than trying to fix her, but either way it's not my job or my responsibility and it will probably just make me nuts.

I don't know. I wish she could be happy. But I also don't like feeling like the dumpee friend... I guess it comes down to wondering if spending time with me is sort of like a vacation from her life. Like she can take off the fake smile and and relax and talk about anything she wants to. I think maybe she's scared that melding me with the rest of her life will mean she has nowhere to go to get away from her life when she needs to. And I think I'd be okay with that if she could just put me ahead of church crap every now and then. It's not like I'm trying to make plans with her on Sundays or anything, but I think I'd feel a lot more important to her if she was willing to skip an FHE every now and then to hang out with me. Or at least not bail on plans we already have once we make them. As lame as it sounds, I need to feel more validated. Or I need to distance myself enough that we can be friends without my feelings getting involved so much.

I don't know. I guess I need to bring some of this up to her. I'm waiting till I have my thoughts a little better organized though. I don't want to try and explain to her how I feel when I'm not even totally sure how I feel.

It's not about a "lame" desire to be validated; it's about a legitimate need to be respected.

Do you feel like she is just using you as a release valve? If so, that is really not fair to you. You have obviously invested enough energy into this relationship to deserve better than being her nothing more than her dirty little secret, to be discarded or put on the back burner when something more "worthy" comes along.

You have already made the big transition from lovers to friends (congrats on that, btw) Now you need to define your roles and boundaries as friends. If you can do that naturally, great; but it sounds like she is stepping on your toes, or at least unable to return what you are investing.

A relationship does not always have to be an equal balance sheet, but it should somehow work out in the end without either person feeling used or abused.

At the very least, you should probably back off even more just for your own sake. She is obviously not ready to accept what you have to offer and you deserve better.

Beaulahland, you are an AMAZING woman. You have fought the good fight for yourself, done your work, know who you are and what you want in life. You know where truth is and whre it isn't --you are grounded in reason and articulate enough to be able to guide others.

This woman is not your child. She has made a decision for herself, a decision that does not include the kind of person you are. No one forced her, she made that decision herself.

How to put this...she is like the married man who "loves" his mistress and would do anything to be with her, but alas, he cannot leave his children. This is not love.

You deserve someone who puts your needs first, like you are putting hers above yours. This can happen and you should wait until it does. Getting with (hanging out all the way to marriage) a person who is actively seeking "more friends" in a religion which labels you the Harlot of Babylon is just (so sorry, honey) using you.

There are plenty of people who want to be the "badgirl" like a character in a play. You are scratching that itch for you.

I seriously doubt that she could wax philosophical about the depth and range of your needs. And that business about being friends--that's bullshit. That just means she gets to feel less guilty and you are supposed to repress your desire and suffer quietly-- and you will live a life of suppressed longing. Run.

Anagrammy

If this girl is too constrained by Mormonism and her family to take a trip with you, it's not looking good. She's an adult, right? Most young adults want to individuate themselves (and separate themselves from their parents) to one degree or another. It's normal to do that. As a psychology professor of mine once said, a little bit of rebellion is nature's way of getting older teens and twenty-somethings out of the house. If they didn't rebel, they would never leave! Your girlfriend is still "in the house" at least in her head. That's why I thought that a road trip would help her, because she seriously needs some distance (both phyically and mentally) from her family. But the truth is she's probably in so deep that little can extricate her at this point. She's not even acting in her own best interest (i.e. by pursuing friendships where she knows she won't find any.)

Valid points, for sure. I don't know how anyone can make it into adult-hood and still be so controlled by their parents. She absolutely has a choice though, and the most I could ever really do was to nudge her in the right direction. If she'd rather cower to her mom like scared little kid than actually stand up for herself then there's nothing I can do about that. And to be my friend in a real sense, she would have to stand up to her mother. Because her mother thinks I'm the devil.

I actually am curious about the psychology within the Morg if someone could help me out. See, the girl has several siblings (of course she does, she's Mormon) who are all active in the church and all of that, but she was always THE Molly Mo. Perfect church attendance and covenant keeping and 100% faith in her testimony. She was her crazy momma's pride and joy and should have been the example by which said momma made all her other siblings feel not good enough by comparison. Getting divorced threw a wrench in all that, and I think it's been a good thing that's she's been going a little nuts and doing all the stuff she should have done back in high school when she was busy praying and reading the BofM. It seems to me like being that perfect Mormon was her whole identity though. Like without the church she wouldn't even know who she was. Because she is a Mormon and everything else is secondary to that. She also doesn't really have a lot of hobbies, so I think she feels like being a Mormon is the only thing she's ever really been good at. And she was REALLY really good at it too. Now that she's not "worthy" anymore she feels like she doesn't know who she is and she's not good at or for anything.

Is that normal for Mormon-think? Do Mo's get so wrapped up in what they believe that it becomes their entire identity? Or is she an extreme case?

I am not a professional, of course, robertb is our registered expert; however, I do not think she is unusual. There are many young women I saw when I was doing the stake self-esteem series who had formed entire identities around Mormonism.

This is more insidious than it sounds because it means that they individuated during their early teens as the Virgin Goddess in Waiting (for the returned missionary). When you fortify the mythology extant in the cult by grooming the young women to accept no suitor who does not match the Prince of Light... well, there is no plan be for Sleeping Beauty is there? She just stays asleep.

Your beloved is asleep TO HERSELF. As such, she cannot do the work of identifying and loving her unique self, which means she cannot really love another unique being. She can only love the Prince of Light.

Until she drops the mythology completely and does the grim and lonely work of individuating as a lesbian woman (if that's what she really is), she cannot love you in return. No matter how understanding, no matter how supportive, no matter how truly amazing you are.

This is why I say move on. I once was in love with a man who was so toxic to me, even I couldn't believe how I could keep going back together with him. I saw his faults but I believed my love could cure him! HAH! He did something really humiliating to me with great boldness one day and I actually felt myself losing respect for myself! I felt shame for still loving him. And I did.

In order to save myself I had to make him hate me because every time he wiggled his finger I came back to him (reason: he tied into my own personal mythology. I secretly always wanted to marry a biologist even from when I was a little girl). I knew he hated nothing more than being embarrassed professionally. He didn't like anyone at work knowing his personal business. Soooo, the next time he threw me out, I wrote a certified letter to his principal telling him that my husband was cashing the insurance checks that were paid to us for my son's dental work and refusing to pay the bills. This was true but of course my husband denied it. This did the trick, though. He was furious with me stepping into his private world and he stopped coming after me. I was able to get a divorce and recover my self-respect.

Sometimes you have to just grab your libido by the ear and drag it back in the house. Sometimes you have to save yourself from desire and hopes which are not realistic.

Anagrammy

PS. As a final humiliation, the principal told me that no one at work even knew my husband was married!

It sounds to me like she is trying to go back to her teen/ pre-marriage place where everything was safe and comfortable. She had her parents' 'love' and approval ( she was the religous one), she had god's approval ( did all the right things- seminary, scripture study, mission etc). So she felt good about herself.

She may have thot that with being a 'good' girl, her life would automatically unfold in the standard mormon way: childhood, seminar, mission, marriage, kids, happy mormon life.

Then marriage happened, but instead of it being the next step on the ladder to heaven and happiness, it turned into a divorce.

That probably burst the innocent bubble she was living under- taught by the church: if you do what god wants, then he will guide your life and you will be happy-except maybe a few cranky kids and a neighbor who's dog gets onto your lawn- kind of stuff.

What does she do now? She's tried going forward without the church but she feels guilty, insecure (she's been told shes in DEEP trouble for mucking up, unless she repents and follows the church path.) I don't mean just now by mother, i mean it's in her soul. From years of indoctrination and telling herself that her good feelings for doing church stuff is from god ( the holy ghost) and that bad feelings must mean she is on the wrong path ( the holy ghost warning her). Bad feelings meaning that you are uncomfortable with a new path is not part of her upbringing.

So, to me, it sounds like she is trying to go back to the point where she was comfortable before this whole MESS of new feelings, emotions etc. came about. Back when things were safe and predictable. BAck to the mormon life she was told was TRUE, that she TAUGHT OTHERS was true and that she is now DELIBERATELY flauting. The only way to fix this - in her mind - is to go back to how she was before, get back on the RIGHT path.

She is trying to do this by attending all her 'required' church events and find friends, perhaps a boyfriend even. Then she will be back on the 'true' path.

As her friend, when she has proven to herself and others she is firmly mormon again, then she will decide if and how much you will be a part of her life. Right now you seem to be a soft place to fall when she does not feel happy about her decision to be a mormon.

My mom told me as a young adult that i should be having mormon friends. So it is not just your imagination. Mormons have mormon friends so that they will feel comfortable and be supported in their chosen life style.

Hope this helps. Hope i'm wrong for your sake. good luck.

As being a mother--you just want your kids to be happy and it isn't about fixing them--just like it was with my husband. I was told I had to "save" him and being married to him taught me the greatest lesson I've ever learned--and that was this was his OWN JOURNEY and it wasn't up to me to try to keep him safe, although I still do "keep him safe," but I allow him to live his life as he sees fit, but he always knows that I'm the refuge from the storm--as do my kids--even my TBM daughter. When push comes to shove, it is always me they turn to, as does my entire family.

The friendship I have with my "dumpee" friend actually works for us. She feels I am the refuge--the one who gets her. I think that is why our friendship survived my loss of belief. We are REAL with each other. We share almost everything. She can't do that with her mormon friends. And, yes, it actually works.

You may be her only source of sanity.

I was one of those molly mormons--I lived it to a "T"--it may be that she was trying to suppress her lesbian feelings and felt if she just did EVERYTHING right, that those feelings woudl go away. I've seen it ENOUGH with my gay friends. I wanted a guarantee that nothing bad would ever happen to me--and it did anyway. I tested mormonism to its limits. For a while, I used to think of going back and then I'd remember, it was living mormonism that got me in the predicament I found myself in. My parents never worried about me leaving the church (most of my siblings are jack mormons--and now that I don't believe, they don't believe--I "gave them permission). My parents at least LISTENED to my concerns. They tried a few times to get me to go back and I would tell them more of what happened to me. AND they listened. They knew me well enough to know I had a valid reason (and they saw what happened to my life).

I'd say she feels that because of all the programming, she is damned if she doesn't live mormonism.

BUT like others have said--it is not your job to protect her or make her happy. If you choose to do so, you can be her refuge from the storm, but you have to decide if it is too painful for you and WILL IT keep you from moving on.

"I'm hoping someone might be able to throw me some ideas on how to discuss doctrine and express my views to a TBM without being offensive or overly confrontational."

This is my position-- treat people the way I want to be treated- leave it alone. I don't question, challenge, or bother other people about their beliefs, and I don't want them doing that to me either. I have 50 year friendships and have no clue what their religious beliefs really are.
There is so much more to a relationship that some religious beliefs.
Their personal beliefs are just that: personal - no matter what they are.

Love people unconditionally- as-is.