Hey guys,

So im quite new to this forum but have really enjoyed reading around. A little about myself: I'm a 23 yeard old guy from New Zealand who happened to meet an amazing girl while on a boozing/snowboarding trip to Utah after finishing college with some mates. She just happens to be mormon...of the TMB kind.

I knew nothing about mormons as we have hardly any over this way, so thought it was just like your average church with a slight twist so I didn't think I had anything to worry about. Anyway to cut a long story short things have progressed and she's coming out here on a college exchange for 3 months, basically to see me. I gave the whole mormon thing a good go, went and had the meetings with the missionaries, went to church services and even went to a new persons fireside (I was expecting some sort of camp fire type scenario so turned up in casual clothing only to find out its a full blown church service!). I wish she had told me how F*&ked up it all was before I got emotionally involved because they dont tell you the half of it when your investigating...Anyways I can't stand the bloody religion now, but I really love this girl. So I'm going to point out a few of the glaringly obvious lies and contradictions that the church says/makes and see if it has any affect on her.

So I was wondering, looking back, what do you guys think, being former TBM's, were the most profound facts that made you realise the church was a sham? And what really made you realise that you couldn't ignore these, because I've brought up a whole bunch and she always explains it all away with totally BS reasoning that makes no sense.

Any information would be much appreciated!

I think you'd be hard pressed to find an exmo who left just because they heard the truth about the church that put it in a negative light. You see, their belief is based on feelings. Logic, reasoning and sound arguments can't defeat that. A TBM must come to doubt on his or her own.

By all means, talk to her. But keep your expectations low. TBMs love the church more than life itself. However, she might be ready to leave the church, or at least push it aside far enough to make space for you. That would be a win.

But if you do hook up for the long term, be prepared. Unless she completely abandons her faith, she will torn between you and it. And you will be under nearly constant pressure from her friends and family to join the church.

I hate to be the bearer of bad brewer news, but that's just how it is in TSCC.

I'm one.

I believed in the church logically. I was only kept from being an exmo because I had no idea there was so much evidence against it. I wish someone had simply sat down with me and showed me the evidence. I had to go out of my mormon box on my own and happen across evidence. That took a long time.

What amazed me is that there seem to be very, very few people like me. Why does everyone tie emotion to beliefs so heavily?

The success of your relationship all depends on her attitude. A relationship with a TBM can definitely work, but they have to be of the open-minded variety, and that's rare. I'm not optimistic about this girl of yours, but it doesn't mean there's no chance. But remember, the ultimate goal of every mormon is to be married in the temple, and this will never happen if you don't join the church, display a belief in it, and pay your tithing.

I'm married to a TBM of the less open-minded variety, and we're making it work, but it's a challenge. She's made great strides in being tolerant and supportive of me, but it can't negate the fact that according to her mormon view my beliefs will inherently and fundamentally destroy our marriage and family.

I have a few aces in the hole. 1) D&C 132 states that I will receive my exaltation no matter how apostate I go, so long as I don't commit murder, thus our family can't be broken. Granted, this is because we're already married in the temple. 2) Mormon doctrine allows for people to accept the gospel even after death, including apostates, so I can play up the "who knows" card. 3) If I lead my children "astray" then I can be blamed for it, and they will get extra lee-way from God.

If you find a non-mormon girl you won't have to deal with any of this.

The good news is that if she's reciprocating your affection and interest, that means she's not a particularly fanatical TBM. The fanatics wouldn't consider dating a non-Mormon.

The bad news is that if she's pushing you into meeting with missionaries and going to "firesides" and what not, she's probably hoping that you'll convert.

Just play it by ear. If you really like her a lot, let her know. Also be upfront and let her know that you probably never will convert. You can be diplomatic about it, but it should be out on the table from the start.

Sounds like you've already put in a good-faith effort to learn more about her religion and what it's about. See if she'll reciprocate by putting in a good-faith effort to REALLY understand why you find it hard to believe.

There are probably a lot of things that she doesn't really know about her own religion. The current generation of Mormons have been raised in a bubble. The leaders have made considerable efforts to sweep a lot of the true history and tradtional teachings under the rug.

Just clueing her in on what goes on in the temple might be a start. Mormon kids are raised expecting that amazing, super spiritual things go on in the temples. When they find out what really goes on, they are usually profoundly disappointed and spend a lot of time and effort hiding that and making up excuses and fantastical explanations to convince themselves that the temple was all it was hyped up to be.

Joseph Smith's true history should be an eye-opener. Ask her about his wives and Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants, which tells us that Joseph Smith was already practicing polygamy BEFORE god supposedly commanded him to do it. Ask her how she would react to a religion that got its most important scripture from a process that consisted of a guy looking at a rock in a hat? Tell her that it's not fair to answer this question as a person who grew up in the Church and whose parents, siblings, friends, etc. are all mostly the same. Tell her she has to try to put herself in the shoes of someone who's hearing this bullshit for the first time, as if she hadn't grown up in Mormonism.

Who knows, she may be having her own doubts already. It could go either way. Good luck.

Just tell her that the church is not for you. Let the chips fall where they may. Your chances are not great, given that, but you can always try.

You might try asking her if she is aware that Joseph Smith had at least thirty-four wives. Eleven of those women were already married to other men at the time that they married Joseph. Ten of the girls were teenagers, with one as young as fourteen years of age (Joseph was in his mid thirties at the time.)

Sometimes people will give the excuse that it was more the custom for women to marry young back then. It wasn't. The normal age for first marriage for women at that time (both locally and nationally) was about 21-22. Some people will argue that there was an excess of widows on the frontier, and therefore plural marriage was a necessity. It wasn't. There was never any significant imbalance in the numbers between the men and the women. Some people will argue that these were "chaste" marriages. There is ample evidence that they were not.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

There is a book called, "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" that is very well thought of, and would be an eye-opener for her if she would consent to read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Loneliness-Plural-Wives-Joseph/dp/156085085X

Run like the wind. You'll go brain dead in your efforts.

Ron

Yep! RUN!!

Hello NZ! I too am a nevermo who fell in love with a TBM. With me though, she was inactive at the time. I know I haven't said why she was inactive on the board yet, so as background, she decided to stop going to church because while she was going she had dated another TBM and they did some things together against church policy. Apparently, he ran off to the bishop to repent and the bishop called her in. She refused to go. She told me she was not going to sit in a room with a man she hardly knew and tell him the intimate details of what happened. At the time though she still believed in the church.

The hardest part for me was once her parents found out she was dating outside the church, there was awful pressure on me to "get myself right" and join the church and be baptized. Missionaries started showing up, her parents pressured her to pressure me, there was crying from her family, etc. There were the lectures from her parents about not being together in the CK and I was outright told that we would never be together forever. That was hard on a 22 year old who was in love.

I resisted the pressure to join because I did my own research on the church and couldn't accept the idea that some Jews sailed across the Atlantic and founded cities in the New World. I couldn't accept horses, steel and all the other crazy things in the BoM. I couldn't accept the racism and sexism that defined the church. And for me, the biggest thing was being forced to pay 10 percent of my earnings or be considered a sinner just turned my stomach.

It will be tough, but tell her how you feel and see where it goes from there. Just please, do not join something you don't believe in just for her. It will make your life miserable.

Eventually, she fell further and further away from the church and we moved quite a bit so they lost contact with us. When our marriage ended after 7 years, she was still inactive, but still believed in the church.

After my experience with the church in that regard, I consider myself now an anti-missionary but even so, still treat those in the TSCC with respect as people.

I hope this helps.

I spent quite a while dating a TBM, and honestly, if it weren't for the fact that we were of the same gender I don't think the religious differences would have been much of an issue. Now, I live in a town with a fairly small Mormon presence, so it's much more common-place to see TBMs marrying non-TBMs. Sure, the pressure is to marry within the church, but I think it's far less pressure when your in-church prospects are all creepy old singles and nineteen-year-olds (my gf was 27, so neither group was super appealing). If your girl lives in Utah then it might be a different story though. It's going to depend HUGELY on her parents. Mormons are taught obedience from such a young age that the true believers amongst them will cave to parental pressure even when they're old enough to be married and out of the house. So, if her parents are open to the idea of her marrying a non-member then you're probably okay. If not, prepare for a world of hurt.

As for confronting her with your issues with the church, BE CAREFUL. I know how tempting it is to just start spouting off the hundreds of reasons that the church is a load of crap. Remember though, she KNOWS that the church is true. Not thinks. Not believes. Not hopes. You won't convince her otherwise unless she's already got one foot out the door. If you want to give her something to read you should try and get her to give Under the Banner of Heaven a shot. It's not anti-Mormon literature or anything. It's a factual account of some crazy fundamentalist Mormons who swear that God told them to kill a woman and her infant daughter. Aside from being really interesting, it's also a really in-depth well-researched link at the history of the church and how it broke up into so many splinter groups. It was written by the same guy that wrote Into the Wild. Maybe you can trade with her. Tell her to pick out a pro church book she wants you to read, and you'll read it and consider it and really think about what's inside, but you get to give her a book to read as well.

TBM and I dated nonmormons--long story, but mormons didn't like an outspoken, free thinker, who had a good job, so when one asked me, I debated the decision for a while. Best date I'd ever been on. Luckily, my parents didn't think a thing of it--in fact, when I voiced my concerns, even mormon men "we" worked with said, "Go for it" and so I continued to date nonmormons.

BUT I didn't marry them--even the one I'm with now at age 54. I was 20 when I dated him years ago. He said he'd join, but didn't believe, and would not serve a mission. I have many reasons I didn't marry him, but for the OP, de-converting a mormon is not an easy job. It took me A LONG time to get to a point that I left the church--even with all the hell I went through.

The chances you can de-convert her are slim to none. If you end up married to her, she will be forever trying to convert you. It is HER JOB.

My parents wished that I had married one of the nonmormons because of how mormon guys treated me . . . but I just wouldn't. So I married someone gay instead.

Hi there... another nevermo who fell in love with a mormon. I too found this forum when I was 'educating myself about my friend's religion' so I could understand more where he was coming from.

What helped me was a shift in my thinking from 'this guy's religion is mormonism' to 'this guy is a member of a cult.' And then I asked myself do I want to be with a member of a cult? NO! But I really love this guy - maybe I can rescue him from it?

While I was sorting out my answers to the above, he dumped me! He didn't want to but his family, his bishop and church 'friends' pressured him into to getting rid of the heathen, Satanic, evil, corrupt, whore of Babylon, baby-eating woman (hehe).

I was obviously hurt but shortly after felt truly relieved to be free of all that craziness.

Do you want to be with a member of a cult?

Richard Packham (who posts on this site) has a very informative website that you might find helpful. The following is from a page called "FAQ: In Love With A Mormon" on his site. It is the last entry on the page.
http://packham.n4m.org/inlove.htm

"[I wrote the following in response to a request for advice from a young man who is in love with a wonderful Mormon girl who says she is not really all that into the Mormon religion. - RP]

I can understand your dilemma, being in love with a Mormon girl and yet not wanting to get involved yourself in Mormonism, or have your children raised as Mormons.

One of the pitfalls is that people who have been raised as Mormons may never lose its grip. Even those who, like your girlfriend, have not been 100% devout followers, having an occasional beer, a little pre-marital sex, and daily coffee. Those are the kind that are most dangerous to fall in love with, because you think, "Well, obviously the Mormonism isn't that important to her/him!" But they carry a smoldering ember of faith and guilt, implanted when they were young, and it often bursts into flame and becomes all-consuming when they are through "sowing their wild oats," and start building a home and having children. At that point, too, the pressure begins to build from the Mormon extended family. Marriage into a Mormon family, to someone who has been taught from childhood the importance of family, means that you are marrying the entire family. You will never belong, and you will likely be made to feel it, however subtly.

As long as she retains even a scintilla of belief in Mormonism, there will be trouble, and it will grow as your relationship continues. Her frustration and sorrow (that you are not Mormon) will continue to grow.

My advice: do not be blinded by love. Remember that there are probably hundreds of equally wonderful girls out there who would be ideally suited to you, and where there would not be this huge invisible thing lurking always between you and her."


I wish you much good luck in trying to reason with this girl, but remember you can't reason someone out of something they didn't reason themselves into. As others have stated, it's unlikely she will listen to logic and reason but instead will fall back on feelings and emotions. The tentacles of Mormon programming run deep and hold strong.

Some additional links to Packham's site that will help you understand Mormonism:
http://packham.n4m.org/#MORMONISM

"TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING 'MORMONISM'"
http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

Wow! I wish I had access to that 20 years ago. Great Advice.

I am also a nonmo who married a mormon. He was non active when we met but that didn't stop the family pressure, in fact I got all the blame for him being non active even though I had nothing to do with it. We did pretty well at first but now that my husband has started going back to church and now he gets little digs about why I am not there, it's become an issue with us. Please be careful, like everyone else here has said, TBM's love their church more than anything else and there is no argument you can make that will change her mind until she is ready to see it herself. Good luck to you, you're going to need it.

I met my BF in high school and we've been together 5 years now. I'm a never-mo. He was raised in the church, but had doubts his whole life. He is, forunately, out now. Our relationship is great.
But my relationship with his family is horrible. They hate me with every fiber of their being. Even family members I've never met hate me and say horrible things about me. The ward his family goes to gossips about me and how horrible people my family and I must be to influence him to do such a horrible thing. It was his choice, I just supported him. But be prepared for the wrath of the family if you get her out. If you really love her, they won't matter. It still sucks though. Neither of us have any communication with his family anymore, it's easier for us that way. Good luck, its a tough road for them to get out. Its tough for the significant other too, you'll need to be her rock and support her. There's a lot of mental damage done to people through this church you can read about on this board. There's been many times I've sat up with my BF all night to let him vent.
There are so many people on this board that are willing to give advice. They make you feel so welcome. :)

You need to be prepared to accept the possibility/probability that she can't be persuaded.
Religion is a complex psychosociological phenomenon that has evolved over thousands of years in successive civilizations.
A book on it, "Breaking the Spell" by Daniel C. Dennett, has a chapter called "Belief in Belief". God is supposedly testing our faith, so He throws in absurdities to weed out the weak believers from the strong believers. The more absurd the better, because it takes more faith. This has been a loophole for religion for thousands of years. Logic has been around since antiquity, so even though we have new scientific discoveries, religion already had an acquired immunity to empericism.
If you try and argue, no matter how good your argument is, a believing mormon will take it as an attack and will block out everything you say. It is common for mormons to simply say all the information you have is a bulk lie.
My TBM wife has said, verbatim, "I don't care what evidence you think you have". Her mind is closed to the possibility that the church isn't true, and I believe, in fact, that there are many people who are psychologically incapable of considering it. It takes an internal paradox to force someone to consider it on their own.

I think that you should ask if she wants to be told the truth of what you've found. If they don't want to know, they won't hear it... no matter how loudly you yell and shout it will go right past them.

If you just start saying things, then she just might start thinking you're a nut-case or just "blinded by satan" or something silly like that.

The biggest thing for me about Mormonism was the Joseph Smith stories (that are so well summarized in "whytylerleft" on google docs - look it up), mostly because if the first prophet isn't a true prophet, then how can any of the rest be? If the first prophet lied about the new "holy book" then how can the rest be teaching true doctrine? etc. To me it all came back to how Joseph Smith's "First Vision" was a total sham and was edited and revised a billion times during the first years of the church's founding, and the fact that the BoM doesn't actually exist, other than as a piece of fiction.

Let's approach this from a different perspective. You have stated that you fell in love with a TBM. I think that it would do you a world of good to investigate the psychological meaning of love. Years ago when I was going through a divorce my therapist suggested that I read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/We-Understanding-Psychology-Romantic-Love/dp/0062504363/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314891326&sr=1-1

From the book I learned that romantic love is a thrilling experience that is driven by hormones and emotions. Unfortunately, romantic love has a relatively short lifespan and when it ends the two lovers are forced to face the realities of getting along in the real world together. At that point the key to getting along well is compatibility.

One of the worst possible deal breakers is a lack of religious compatibility. That is a time bomb that can explode and destroy the relationship at any time.

Being successfully and happily married is difficult under the best of circumstances. When you throw a religious incompatibility into the mix, the chances of a successful long-term marriage become very small.

There are a million fish in the sea. My best advice to you is to choose a compatible one and totally avoid a person with whom you have a major incompatibility.

Here is another excellent book that discusses how to determine if a specific person is the right one for you:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_43?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=are+you+the+one+for+me+by+barbara+deangelis&sprefix=are+you+the+one+for+me+by+barbara+deangelis

If I could have read that book BEFORE getting married then I would never have married that woman and I would have saved myself untold problems and heartache.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2011 11:59AM by saviorself.

Question: Have U done the horizontal with gf?
Part of the answer here will be how does she deal with matters of affection...IF she feels guilty abt being intimate (SEX) with you, Not a good sign.

AGREE with the inquiry abt parents, also find out abt sibs.

It's really simple choice: is her Loyalty to family or to church?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2011 12:26PM by guynoirprivateeye.

if her fam is tied to ChurchCo, that's what she'll expect of YOU.

Some of my perspective as a long time member - convert as a young adult, married to a returned missionary in the temple, 49 years ago- still married to a believer.


Mormonism, in my long experience and observation, is more accurately described as a patriarchal, generational, cultural, religious tribe. In fact the word: tribe is used in their lexicon. As a convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe. Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe complete with it's own unique rituals, music, and language.

This system, including everything in their teachings/doctrines is not just earthly in their view, it's Eternal.
That is the core for their World View and how they incorporate their extended family.

Everything in the life of a truly believing, testimony bearing, totally immersed, temple attending, generational Mormon is about their goal to live Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom together as a family.

This is the context that their view of their Eternal family functions. Therefore, their lives among their family is geared around the rituals/ceremonies-costumes: blessings, baptisms, priesthood advancement for the boys, missions, temple marriages,"Callings" etc, and around and around it goes.

This is a whole life religion, with a strong generational pull.

Telling someone you think their religion is false, or nonsense, or not true.... well....
You might as well tell a group of Noah Ark searchers on the mountains of Tibet that there was no Ark, it's just a story, they can come home now.

The young woman you met is on a mission to find an eternal mate to marry in the temple for "time and eternity".
She may very well be hoping/planning to get you to convert so she can fulfill her generational, religious marriage expectations.

The advice given above is some of the best I have ever seen.
Love won't conquer these extreme chasms in your different belief systems.

I suppose you can love someone but hate or dislike immensely who they are because that is your situation right now, because a Mormon is who she is and you made it clear that it's unacceptable to you on any level. I'm not sure how that works though.

In one sentence: you are not a match. You don't have enough in common to create a marriage/home/family.

Move on.

Best Wishes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2011 12:23PM by SusieQ#1.

Tread carefully, sounds like she's hoping you'll convert.

.. a Very Legalistic & Conditional approach to Relationships AND to Life. that explains a lot of things about how they're motivated in their decisions / actions.

If U function that way, that's a + for your relationship with her; it's Very ingrained into the Mo customs.

I just want to say:
Marrage to a TBM once you have gone inactive is HELL...HELL and more HELL...

I have been with my wife 18 years, i have been inactive 16, and only just DE-converted her after all those years...

: REMEMBER : She may be a fanatical TBM under the surface and more than happy to nod along, listen and maybe agree "in principle" with what you say....Subject to you listening to their reasons why these Anti-mormon lies have blackened your heart.


But the bottom line is this.........
you are worlds apart ...or in fact, kingdoms apart...

If she believes, she wants the 3rd floor with beds, genitals, balcony, sunlight ...etc etc.
whereas you will be a couple of floors below no genitals, no family, in darkness.
Of course she could come and visit you, after all, she has a lovely LDS fob that call the lift for her....but she would rather you be with her in the penthouse.


Unless she leaves 100%, do not start a long term serious relationship.

In fact,

RUN AWAY....Plenty more sane, rational and logical humans in the sea.

"Run boy! Run...Oh run.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2011 06:20PM by drilldoc.

There are some young people who seem to have a strand in their DNA that makes them get involved heavily with someone, and as soon as they convert, they become "just friends." they've done done their job. I know.
I'm not saying that's your case, but...

kia ora,

stay way from mormonism.
stay away from her unless she's willing to accept you for who you are. not for what organization you belong to.

if she leaves the church, then we are talking.
before then, it's all a good friendship with no change to progress into something more reliable. like permanent sex.

bro...even me, after being married for x number of years, after i told her i didn't believe anymore she preferred the cult over me. it sucks but who wants to be with somebody who doesn't really love you anyway. that's the way **most** mormon girls operate. maybe she's different.

what's her phone number? let me give her a call. i'll talk to her. don't worry. just sit tight and i'll get back to you on that issue.

:)

ka kite. go all blacks!

in Annakareina:

"When you love someone, you love them as they are, not as you'd like them to be"

He decided he didn't mind the children being raised Mormon. If you have a problem with that, speak up now.

1.turn 180 degrees
2.run for your life

Wow I'm slightly overwhelmed with the response! Thank you all for all your responses, it means a lot. So I'll clarify a few things and answer a few of your questions.

Firstly She's not from Utah, she's from Southern California, so she's not tooottallly surrounded by mormons, but most of her extended family lives there and are all TBM's so theres definitely a bit of pressure there from her family, but its not unbearable from what I can tell. But as far as I can tell her family (atleast her immediate family) are pretty liberal as far as mormons go (but still totally TBM in nature). I've actually already met her Dad and step mom a number of times and they are really nice and we're really welcoming to me. They hardly spoke about anything religious, although they did make sure they went to church on sunday when they were on vacation out here on vacation. I've also met one of her half sisters and she seems to love me (she's also a total TBM, albeit a single female approaching 30, so may have some more sympathy for her). She only has one full brother who is an RM and pretty active in the church from what I can tell. She has many many half siblings as both of her parents have remarried, so probably 15+ I'd say. Her eldest half brother is a bishop I think. Her Dad must have some sort of high up role within the church because she tells me that she doesn't mention some of her more personal "short comings" (i.e. the sexual ones) in her confession sessions (not sure what they are officially called but I'm sure u know what I mean) because her Dad would end up finding out because he's on the review panel type thing (sorry really unfamiliar with official names and structure in the church)?

So yeah all in all, her family seems really nice from the limited experience I have with them. Her step mom in particular, who she seems to be closer with than her actual mom, seems really down to earth with her beliefs and has even encouraged her to continue to pursue our relationship by coming out here to see how things go. I get the feeling the Dad wishes that I was a mormon but knows im a nice guy and treat her well so can deal with the fact im not mormon. As for the girl herself, She's without a doubt a TBM, but is about as liberal as you can get and still be classified as a TBM. She had a number of wild years after finishing up at BYU and has been drunk at parties, smoked weed and had a bit of premarital sex. To answer a few of your questions, yes we have been "horizontal" quite a fair bit. Although she did get upset after our first time which made me feel a little weird, but she's been fine since then. I'm not quite sure why she got upset as I'm by no means her first...mormon psychology is weird...When we're together we dont have sex as often as I would like, but its not terrible, maybe once a week or so. She says she doesn't want to go at it all the time because she feels like its not real life. Dont quite know how that thought pattern works either but hey, I can deal with that.

We have talked about all the tricky things. I have told her that I doubt I will ever become a member. I know she will always hope that I do join, but I think she knows thats probvably not going to happen. The whole raising of the kids thing is the one major issue that we haven't agreed on yet. But dont worry, I will never move forward without sorting out how I feel about the issue and making a strong agreement with what we both are ok, and not ok with. So i'll see how things go there.

Also, I am in no position to really be thinking about marriage anytime in the near future. it will be multiple years until thats on the radar so I have lots of time to think about it. And i would just let it go, but its hard because we are totally compatible on every other level apart from religion. I guess at the end of the day it is probably one of, if not the most major compatibility factor though, but I will just see how it goes when she comes out, and hopefully her curiosity towards all the so called "anti church literature" grows when she's out here and she starts to investigate things on her own. If not I wont die sad that I never tried.

This sounds a lot like where I was at. Her family was super liberal and she had a gay cousin who they all loved and who still considered himself LDS, even though he stopped going to church because of some bad experiences with his bishop. I honestly think that if it hadn't been for the whole gay thing that her parents would have been okay with my lack of belief in the church. Actually, if she had been gay it probably would have been a little more okay too. The problem is that she was bisexual, so her parents saw being with me as choosing a gay lifestyle instead of coming out of the closet.

Anyway, just one more thing to think about. I'm not a paranoid or anxious person, but knowing that the person you're falling for is around people who preach that she can't go to heaven with you and that breaking up with you would be doing what god wanted... Well, it's easy to get freaked out any time she acts even slightly strange. It's not like you're just trying to keep a relationship going by being considerate and fun and keeping the spark alive. You are always at a huge risk of everything ending suddenly and with zero warning because even though things are going great, she decided she wanted to get to the CK. It's scary.

Also, be prepared for sexual hang-ups. Tons of them. Not that our sex life wasn't fun, but she had never even masturbated and thought oral sex was weird and gross (even just from the receiving end) and had no idea what got her off. It was like rewinding to 8th grade when we were all still insecure about our bodies and scared to find out how we liked to be touched. We figured it out, but I think it could have pretty easily become a huge issue if we'd let it.

I'm really enjoying reading this thread, I wish it could be saved on this website for good. I'd like my wife to read it..... someday.........gotta go she's home!