I couldn't help but wish I'd been there to respond to your family's attempt at damage control. Here are some of my thoughts. I hope others will weigh in too:

**

The highlights of their responses and our subsequent conversation:

1.) So what if women can't have the priesthood? Men can't have babies but we aren't complaining!

This is a false dichotomy. They have presented two alternatives that are neither jointly exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. You should have nailed them to the wall on this one.

It’s as though they are making the assertion that women get pregnant all by themselves, or that other women get them pregnant. That’s patently absurd. Men & Women are both required participants in order to make a baby. How exactly are women required participants in the Priesthood?

Further, why is it simply assumed that all women want to have children? Why can’t a woman then choose the priesthood over childbirth? Why can’t a woman both have babies and participate in the priesthood?

And lastly, why are women anointed to be “Queens and PRIESTESSES” in the temple if they’re not entitled to the PRIESTHOOD?



2.) Promise you will take some time before formally resigning, don't have a blog about it, and don't tell anyone (including certain family members) about anything you have found.

Like Anagrammy said, this one is the real red flag.
Why should you wait to formally resign? Why shouldn’t you blog about it? And why shouldn’t you tell everyone about your decision? This is a double-standard (logical fallacy #2).

Why are you expected to share your testimony and a book of mormon with total strangers (every member a missionary) but suddenly you’re not supposed to tell those closest to you about one of the most important decisions of your life? Why let your family censor you? This is not Nazi Germany. You shouldn’t feel guilted or threatened into silencing yourself.

I recommend you follow your heart, not the selfish requests of family members who have a SERIOUS conflict of interest.



3.) God changes his mind all the time, that’s why we need modern prophets to show us the way.

Really? Name one single prophecy or revelation that Thomas Monson has revealed to the church since his time in office?

What has god changed his mind about now?




4.) I trust Joseph Smith to translate the Egyptian scrolls more than scientists and linguists because he got it from God. People with doctorates disagree all the time about those things. I'm sure they all interpret them differently anyway.

IF Egyptologists disagree about anything it is NOT the fact that Joseph Smith literally pulled the Book of Abraham out of his hat.



5.) Yes there is polygamy in heaven, because there are more riteous women than men on this earth.

I love this one. Is elohim omniscient or isn’t he? Does he know the future or doesn’t he? If he is, and if he does, then it’s his fault that there are more righteous women than men because he is the one who created the genders in the first place. It’s basic kolobian doctrine that we were genderless intelligences UNTIL we received a spirit body on god’s glass planet in the star system kolob. At that time, elohim knew exactly who would make it to exaltation and who wouldn’t. Why didn’t he create a balanced ratio of male to female spirit bodies then?

Also, and not to put TOO fine a point on it: Just who exactly benefits from this unbalanced ratio? MEN! Who hold the priesthood? MEN! Who are the ones that are supposedly receiving this doctrine from god? MEN! Tell me that doesn't seem a little convenient for the men-folk.

These ad-hoc arguments never work when you begin to dissect them.




6.) You are so young, you don't know what you want.

Oh, but when you were 8 you were old enough to know that you wanted to get baptized? This is an incredible double-standard. How could you know what you wanted at 8 and not know what you want now?

This is simple stuff. Do you want to be stuck in an eternal god-making pyramid scheme for the rest of eternity, endlessly breeding with the one single exalted man that you will be sharing with an infinite number of other women with no chance of ever doing anything different, or do you want freedom?

I think you’re old enough to choose freedom if you want. I’m sorry your family doesn’t.




7.) You have never been deep into the church (thank God for that!) so how can you argue against something you have never studied?

For the sake of argument, let’s assume you had. Let’s assume you had read the entire canon many times over, received the washing, anointing, endowment, and sealing in the temple: how does that change the fact that you don’t want to be one of an infinite number of eternal breeding cows doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER again forEVER?

They are so focused on the so-called “deep doctrines” that they can’t see the forest for all the trees. You don’t have to know what spirit is made of or how big kolob is, or how many light years away it might be, or memorize the middle names of all the prophets, or know how many virgins were raped in the book of numbers, of how bad you can beat your slaves as long as they don’t die in order to see what they don’t actually want you to see: this is a religion for the exaltation of MEN and the eternal enslavement of WOMEN.

That’s what happens when you build a religion based on bronze-age fairy tales.




8.) The Bible teaches eternal progression and the three degrees of glory.

It also teaches slavery, genocide, infanticide, rape, torture, human sacrifice, tribalism, murder, manifest destiny, subjugation of women, that the earth is flat, that satan keeps council with god, that disease is caused by demons, and that if you don’t endorse the murder of an innocent jewish rabbi you will be tortured forever with no chance of rehabilitation.

What does it really matter what the bible says?

5.) "Yes there is polygamy in heaven, because there are more riteous women than men on this earth."

This is a fun one for me. I like to follow the logic:

God gives us no trial, no temptation that we cannot overcome. God also recognizes that individuals have different strengths and weaknesses and He will judge us fairly according to our abilities. Yet there are more righteous women than there are righteous men in the Celestial Kingdom, so righteous males will have to take multiple spiritual brides.

Now, why are there more worthy women? Are the sexes both equally capable of obeying all of God's commandments? If so, why is there such a disparity in heaven? Why aren't men as obedient to God's commandments as women? Does this not indicate that males may not be as capable as their female counterparts of living the gospel? If this is the case, then why would God not be more lenient on the brethren? To me, this argument in support of polygamy makes no sense, and anyone who uses it deserves to be openly and publicly derided.

is the gender bias. Women are not held responsible for their actions in the same way as men; therefore, fewer of the breeders are excommunicated.

It has been discussed here before, and is well-understood that if a couple commits adultery, the man is excommunicated and the woman is disfellowshipped. This represents the true attitude of the church regarding women--we simply do not have the same intellectual gifts to the degree that we are not even equally culpable for failing to obey the commandments.

So, you might simplify it by saying that there will be more subhuman breeder females, just as there are more sows than boars at the pig farm.

Nice.

Anagrammy

That's so true. I never thought about it like that.

"poor little kolobiana...she just can't help herself. You see, brethren? This is why we can never, ever, allow our sisters in christ to weild the keys of the holy priesthood. They are just too naive and susceptible to the temptations of the flesh..." - Boyd KKK Packer.

It reminds me of the time my mom tried to convince me that it was harder for a woman to resist fornication than a man. She's totally brainwashed..

Man Kolobian, I need to take you to my parent's house and explain all this to them cause they won't listen to me! Those are really good logical arguments! :)

I wish I could switch my mind to whatever channel you are on at will. That's one of the best things I've ever read here. Saving it for sure and hoping I get a chance to use it--but nobody in my family wants to talk about it.

Just a couple of opinions on the 8 points kolobian hit:

1. What does Men having the Priestood have to do with Men not having babies? I know why men can't have babies, but there is no good reason why women can't hold the priestood, other than men telling women that this is the way it should be. Why shouldn't women be able to heal the sick, baptize and confere the gift of the holy ghost? Is it because of Eve in the Garden of Eden? If so, recall the 2nd Article of Faith- the concept applies to Eve as well.

2. What Kolobian wrote. +1000

3. Really? I thought it said in the Bible that Lord does not change, he is a constant. If that's the case, then what do we need a profit for?

Malachi 3:6: "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

4. What kolobian said, the only exception being that he pulled it out of something much lower than his hat. In addition, the Kinderhook plates fiasco was more proof that Joseph Smith was no translator. What else did he falsely translate?

It also speaks to the "divine inspiratation" of current church leaders since they couldn't tell that the kinderhook plate #5 was a fraud. They continued until 1980 to claim it was ancient. In 1980, they changed their minds saying it wasn't ancient? Why? Because destructive testing proved it was made in the 1800's since it was acid etched, not engraved.

5. What Kolobian wrote. In addition, how exactly is polygamy beneficial to "righteous woman" in heaven? The fact that they get to share their husband with countless other righteous women?
How exactly are they an equal partner with their husband if he has a gazillion other wives. So your voice will be 1/10000?
Heaven sounds like a fantastically awesome place for women.

6. I agree with Kobian entirely on this point.

7. I would just add that lies are lies and if something isn't true, then it isn't true. Reading it *more deeply* isn't going ever make it become true. For example, if I find something out about Joseph Smith I didn't know (he had 33 wives: 1 legal and 32 illegal) making him an adulterer, does it matter how much more I find out about his life before I determine he was a false prophet? Why waste my time?

8. The God of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible. The Bible does talk about many Glories/Kingdoms, (not just 3) but NOT about Eternal Progression. If fact, many religions believe that this is a false premise. You can google this to read their arguments. This is one reason many say the mormons are not Biblical Christians. Here's a link to one such article:
http://bible-truth.org/differentgod.htm

No. You haven't acted on it. Besides, you can always claim you have been doing that *deep thinking* they told you to do.

And you have problems with what you were taught. Especially after doing research using CHURCH APPROVED SOURCES.

Which is where we were before you.

We came to the conclusion that it just isn't true.

The challenge is GETTING OUT.

That's why mormonism is a cult...

Thanks guys... You are giving me GREAT ideas for my questions to give them and some church members. Do you think they will excommunicate me just for asking? :)

Not if you resign first ;)

But they may try so it looks like their idea and they feel they can continue to wield power over you. Make it YOUR decision and do things on your own terms - that is one of the beautiful things about leaving the church. They won't let you, if at all possible, but they have no power over you any more.

Why blame the lamb for being eaten by the wolf, yes? What a repugnant and dehumanizing concept for both sexes!

All my life the church made me feel like a sexual deviant just for responding to normal, natural urges. These feelings didn't leave when I got married, and I was constantly worried my wife would leave me if she found out how disgusting I really was (which, it turns out, I really wasn't). My wife DID change once we were married, though; I saw the spunky, fiery, fiercely independent young woman I loved transform into a meak, subservient girl whose only desires in life were to placate me and pop out babies. Luckily, we were a good match, and we managed to help each other overcome our church-bred shortcomings and are pretty happily married now.

Life is so much better when you have the freedom to be human!

EDIT: This was intended to be in response to Anagrammy. Damn my fat fingers and faulty Droid touchpad!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2011 05:41PM by homo sapiens maximus.

I am so glad it worked out for you and your wife!