Can an atheist live a good and honerable life and try to live by good principles of life that Christians link with the Jesus God??? And NOT accept the Jesus God with sins, ressurection, reward and punishments, and other baggage that comes with the Jesus beliefs. Can't the principles for living a good life and the Jesus idead be seperated from each other???

Do I have to believe in a man that walks on water, heals the sick, never had a job, got in trouble with the law and died as thousands of others did on the cross. A man who came alive again but never told the authorites that killed him Also a man who's mother had intercourse with a spirit and his erethly father was a step father. Man that never baked or owned a bakery or resturant and feed thousands of people ona few loaves of bread and some dead fish. A man never married, had to kids and knows nothing about aging and old age, bills, credit cards, and lived off his followers and old ladies, like the widows mite. A man that calls for total commitment and worship of himself and promises punishment and torture to those that don't and mansions to those that do. WTH

Can I just be a good man, loving and helping others for no thought of reward or punishment??? I am happy with a condo, I don't need a mansion, gold roads, power and authority over others, worlds, millions of kids and wifes. I really don't want to live with most of my family and kids, can I just live as good as I can and be left alone by all religious persons...?? I don't want or need to be tested. I know who and what I am, and if that is not good enought..Fuck everyone. I am happy.

In fact, the Golden Rule is very similar to something written by a rabbi who was a near-contemporary of Jesus (if he existed). Ultimately, the principles of compassion and consideration for others are ones that any decent, thoughtful person would arrive at of his or her own accord.

There's no good thing that's unique to christianity. Them trying to re-brand decent moral values as "good christian principles" is just like naive kolobians asserting that placing your palm on the bible and raising your arm to the square in a courtroom is a watered-down apostate version of the sign of the 2nd token of the aaronic priesthood.

Even though they like to think it. It's just plain, ole, ethnocentrism.

In the immortal words of Bill Maher: "...Ghandi was so fucking Christian he was Hindu!"

BR

And I am sure that lots of people do.

None of this having to believe in Christ as the Saviour in order to be saved from hell.

I've read the works of non-Christian and atheist philosophers who make excellent cases for living a moral life...unfortunately I can't remember which philosophers specifically.

But I like that some people have thought about it non-spiritually and found that not lying, not cheating on your spouse, not stealing, etc...just makes good social sense for the peace and happiness of individuals and society.

What a stupid question. YES!

Unless that is you think morality comes from god, in which case a godless person would all of a sudden become a horrible, evil serial killer.

Morality is a choice. Not a church.

It is a repackaging job.

Having said that, the teachings of Jesus do not have to be original to be true, to be well-illustrated with parables, to be inspirational.

You may already have figured out that not all the red text in the Bible was actually said by Jesus. You have as much right to determine the interpretation of the Bible as a rabbi or a priest.

Jesus said, "The kingdom of god is within." He probably did NOT say "Upon this rock I will build my church." He probably did say, "Hypocrites--you scribes and pharisees!..." He probably did NOT say "Who's sins you shall forgive, they shall be forgiven. Who's sins you shall retain, they shall be retained."

How do I know? Jesus was anti-Church and saw that the Jews had formed an organization which enslaved people rather than helped them. He understood very well that it was their POWER that corrupted them. Common sense tells you he would not then turn around and establish his own counterpart, giving them unlimited power to forgive sins.

Do what I did--read the bible WITHOUT any concordances or priests or experts telling you what it means. Skip what doesn't make sense. Write down what does. Look that over for what speaks to you.

I happen to believe that Jesus was an enlightened Master who taught "he who has ears to hear, let him hear" NOT the quotes which say "cast out the unbeliever from amongst you." I believe his helping of the Samaritan by the side of the road (refusing to scorn him) and his refusal to stone the woman caught in adultery are authentic Jesus. I judge other, condemning to hell things that are attributed to him as being planted by power seeking Church officialdom trying to endow themselves with more power by putting words in his mouth.

My own personal take and others see it differently.

Read some comparative religion books and you'll be startled and maybe even outraged (I was). Christianity is not unique, that's what The Power of Myth tells us (by Joseph Campbell). Great read.

Best

Anagrammy

That is a great book. I read it last year. VERY enlightening. I liked the part about the Kennedy funeral being the last great world-wide ritual (or something like that)..

There are some people who believe Jesus was exposed to Buddhist thought.

My eyes were opened to that by Deepok Chopra in his book, "The Third Christ." Also, he gently shows how some quotes don't actually "sound" like Jesus said them.

Another door of free thinking opens...


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My eyes were opened to that by Deepok Chopra in
> his book......

I suppose that even a nutty scam artist who panders to the extremely gullible can occasionally say something that isn't totally bullchips...... like a stopped clock is right twice a day, yeah?

It is so freeing to be able to read everyone and anyone and be able to see this or that point they make is universal and valid--and to throw away what isn't useful.

In Mormonism we learn that everything that drops from the tongue of the Lord's annointed is wisdom and everything coming from those who "lack faith" is poison.

It is a sign of healing to be open to hearing everyone's truth and to be afraid of no one's words.

Periodically I mention that I no longer consider myself a Christian--but that's not because I have any issue with Jesus Christ, rather I think he would be outraged at what people have done and are doing in his name. The fastest way out of Mormonism, and the easiest way to deconvert someone, is to help them follow Christ. His teachings do not match Mormonism AT ALL.

A person who loves Jesus and wants the joy of a personal relationship with their Savior has no business being Mormon. They are selling a personal relationship with your church handler.

Anagrammy

that was what his followers did.... and they didnt follow so well now did they.....

Yeah, I don't recall Jesus burning anyone at the stake.

of course you can.

there are many other movements that encourage people to be rationally and 'good' to each other.

christianity thinks it holds the monopoly of goodness of this world.

in fact, throughout history there has been more bloodshed in the name of jesus than any other group.

but why is it important to you? what are the effects of a non-jesus centric life on your personality, your kindness towards others?

look at buddhism, taoism..they are doing just fine.

All post have helped me....I just was overwhelmed with my family knowing I turned atheist and thinking and saying I was not a good person, due to not believeing in Jesus....This board helps me see the real word and not just a morg window...thanks for all your thoughts. I try hard to live a good life and help others, but many mormons have said to me that I am not a good person and without the "gospel", I could never be happy. I feel happy and satified with my current life, but those still in the cult insist I am not happy and that until I repent and rejoin them, I am dog shit...Thanks for helping see the real truth....There are other sucess ways to live than believing in Jesus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2011 12:52PM by get her done.

They have to say that you must believe in Jesus to be happy. They want all to think that those not in the LDS church are unhappy. Of course it is far from the truth but CULTS do this sort of thing. It is part of their cult teachings. Just ignore all of them - including family who say these things to you.

Thomas Jefferson did. He thought Jesus's principles were wonderful, but he didn't think Jesus was divine.

When in reality, people do just fine without it. In fact, religions usually have their own agendas which don't always coincide with the needs of humanity. Not only can people do just fine without it, they can do better without it. It's a hard concept to accept when you're taught from birth to believe otherwise. Way, way, too many people are convinced religion is necessary to have morals and exist in society. Those actually come from hundreds of thousands of years of human development and adaptation, and not from some preacher claiming to save you. If anything, religion screws it up.

Jonathan Haidt, who is a sociologist and an atheist, has written a book that examines which ancient religious teaches about morality and happiness have been scientifically validated and discusses how we might apply them. It is titled The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom. I'm reading it now, enjoying it, and getting more out of it the second time through. Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, and I highly recommend Haidt's book.

http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Hypothesis-Finding-Modern-Ancient/dp/0465028020/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315666982&sr=8-1

It is good to follow Christian principles and the Ten Commandments. Whether you want to "believe" in Christ as the Saviour of the world, well, that is your choice. I have studied other belief systems, i.e. Buddhism, but I consider myself Christian. Your beliefs may change over the years.

I agree. And if a person has those values and shows them in their actions and speech, then I do not think one has to worry or profess a belief in Jesus/God. Those who do, wish to associate with like minded people who also claim Jesus as their personal savior and they serve with those people in local/state/ or foreign mission projects.

They like to be in a group for their religious instruction and sing, hear sermons, take on jobs such as Sun. School teacher, Women's Fellowship leader, church camp counselor, choir member etc. Hard to do that without attendance at a church. But all adults can still serve and have good character traits that they live by. My thought is that it was their parents who taught them how to live properly. I do not believe we are born to be always good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2011 06:15PM by honestone.

How about substituting the word 'Values' for 'principles'?

Does that help?

Like many above me have said, Christianity does not have the corner market on positive morals, principals, or values.

The Havamal has large portions devoted to behavior and values, which heathen groups like Asatru have condensed into Nine Noble Virtues:

Courage
Truth
Honor
Fidelity
Discipline
Industriousness
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Preservation

This are the values that resonate with me. They are completely in keeping with christian values, and are the guideposts I hope to give to my children.

'atheists for jesus'

Those "good principles" that most Christians believe in are fabricated aphorisms based on their own specious interpretation of how to be a good person. Very literally, there is a huge "create your own Jesus" craze in this nation.

If you read the New Testament and actually adhere to the things it says, you will not look anything like most modern Christians.

Who is more moral- a person who does good things because a divine being will punish them if they don't, or a person who does good things simply because they choose to?

..and...smith and friends (including the latest crook monson) haven't done a goddamn thing for their fellow human beings...

those ticks and leeches allegedly talk to god directly, and yet somehow that god directs them to build shopping malls instead of sending meaningful help to somalia or even members of the church financially distressed.

i've seen jesus on the homeless' eyes but unfortunately i can't say the same from the men in dark suits from LD$, Inc.

totally think that a person can lead a decent,ethical life without being part of a Christian religion, any religion, or believing a deity at all.

I'm not active in Mormonism anymore, but I still try to live a principled life. I still do believe in a Jesus/God, but my Jesus/God is a NICE deity, not mean and threatening like the LDS one.

And I don't believe in the whole, "Be ye therefore perfect" garbage, supposedly uttered by JC.

I remember as a child feeling afraid of anyone who wasn't a Mormon. I thought people who weren't LDS must be immoral, coffee-swilling infidels. Now that I'm more or less "out", I've found out that the coffee-swilling infidels, of which I am a part are a lot more interesting, more tolerant and far less ignorant that the "chosen" people of Mormonism, on average.

It is great to have a voluntary desire to be good just for goodness' sake, rather than to be good under threat of punishment/outer darkness.

A wise person said, "Morality isn't moral if it isn't voluntary".

That really resonates with me.