The kolobian doctrine of the atonement is pretty simple:

Actions have consequences. Gods can't get around these consequences, but for some reason they think it's preferable for one person (scapegoat) to suffer the consequences of everyone else's mistakes. Whatever. I'm not judging.

However, Jesus didn't really seem to have a very tough time in the garden of gethsemane. Sweating drops of blood? Being wracked with pain? Yeah, for a few hours. Then it was all over.

Even if you say it was easy for him because he was herculean (half man-half god) and that a normal person would be killed by such a feat, what's the problem? If Jesus could pick the time and place of the suffering then so could anyone else. Why not just pick the end of our lives?

I mean, we're dying anyway, so it's as good a time as any to suffer the consequences of our actions that will kill us and then "poof" now we're good and dead and CLEAN and PERFECT just like Jesus.

I think believing in Jesus as a way of getting out of taking responsibility is cowardly.

When you compare it to the suffering that is well known and documented it is a very small amount of time and a unimpressive amount of gore.

Everyday there are victims of torture, rape, and other atrocities that just make one want to vomit because of the pain and vulgarness of the crimes. I would bet my last dollar that any of those victims if interviewed would gladly trade their situation for a few hours of bleeding and praying in a peaceful garden under a star filled sky with angles watching over them.

That dude that had to cut off his arm after spending 6 days starving to death and drinking his own piss to stay hydrated while pinned to a wall by a rock on his arm is super human! He was trapped in a canyon in Utah...6 days...got infected from ganegreen....fought off death when most would have quit.....cut off his skin and muscle to the bone ......couldn't cut through the bone with the knife.....so he used his body weight to splinter and shatter the bone.....then hiked out over ten miles and repelled a 75 foot face cliff with only one arm left and not having eaten for 5 days....... sounds pretty impressive to me.

Julia Sweeney quoted someone as saying, "Jesus had a really bad weekend for our sins."

followed by:

(1) Resuming one's position as master of the universe, with power over all matter, spirit and energy (teaming up with your father, who loves you more than anyone else and with your gaseous sidekick, nicknamed "Holy Ghost");

(2) Receiving a perfected physical body, with full immunity to death, disease, decay and flatulence;

(3) The ability to travel to any place at any time and be with anyone anywhere.

I had a really painful abscess that went on for three days. Sure, it wasn't quite as bad as being nailed to a cross (although there were moments...). But at the end of it, all I had to show for my pain and suffering was a lost weekend and a dental bill.

I'm not surprised that Jesus went for the deal that he did. He could have gotten the deal that a lot of people got, which is a whole lot of suffering followed by a whole lot of nothing special. ;o)

...Jesus died for our sins. (Mormons say he *suffered* for our sins.) Um, but he didn't stay dead. And God didn't give his Only Begotten Son. He has him back. I know that my Redeemer liveth, right? So is it that he died or that he didn't?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2011 04:50PM by Stray Mutt.

While I was a missionary in Korea, we had a visiting 70 at one of our mission conferences... As it happened, he was the GA that had translated the BoM into Korean, so in Korea he's something of a celebrity, you know because "prophets" are interpreters... anyway... It was very exciting... at the time... not so much now that I've had time to think about it...

First he impressed us with his ability to remember random peoples names... Then he went on to explain the atonement... It went something like this, and no I'm not exaggerating any of it, this is exactly how he explained it.

Basically, the only way the atonement would work, you know to pay for everyone's sins was if the person doing the payment had "lived" the life of the person that was they were paying the sins for... So, the suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross, was Christ "living" *every* experience of ever person who had lived and would ever live... In the time that he suffered, he was actually "living" our lives, experiencing every single thing that everyone had experienced... It was so overwhelming, even for a Demigod, that it caused him to bleed from every pore, etc.

But wait, there's more! Since God created countless earths for his kids (see Pearl of Great Price for details), he was living the life for not just those people born on this Earth, but "ALL" earths created by HF. Countless lives beyond belief all experienced in just hours... Because he loved us all that much. This is why he "knows" us, why he loves us sooooo much! Because he's lived our lives, he's actually walked in our shoes, he knows us and what we've been though, good and bad, and still loves us! Isn't it marvelous!

Oh, and all of the big 12 have actually since Christ, how else could they be called "special witnesses".

At the time, I felt honored to learn this information. I mean, it came straight from a "Seventy", and one of the ones who had translated the BoM!!!! How exciting...

Now looking back, I see that what he taught, while an interesting bit of doctrine... I see that; one, no other GA has ever taught it this way; two, most of the 12 agree that they haven't met Christ face to face (though they will usually be pretty clever about not stating one way or the other to a TBM)...

Not to mention... Why are *we* so darn special on this earth? It had something to do with us needing Christ more because (if you read in the PoGP, we're one of the lowest of the low planets in the grand scheme of things, lesser light or something)

I just don't get the atonement at all? It's one of the reasons while just saying "Heavenly Father" makes me sick now... How could any loving parent do that to his kids. To any of you parents out there, can you imagine saying, OK out of my five kids, you've all made mistakes... Johnny, you're the oldest, I'm going to have to spank you because everyone else screwed up, the rest of you get ice cream. It makes no sense at all!

Anyway, that was pretty long, but for some reason wanted to get it out.

I totally agree with you. It's utter nonsense. That's when people like Skousen come in and say the elements won't obey elohim unless he sacrifices his perfect son for the sins of his other children.

But wait! If the "elements" have the ability to cognize what is happening and have the ability to choose not to sustain elohim as a god simply because he hasn't followed their rules, then they're not really elements at all. They're intelligences! And the whole thing falls apart rather quickly.

That's why we're not supposed to delve into deep doctrine: because it doesn't make sense under the microscope.

Edited to say: at least it makes more sense than the mainstream x-ian version of the crucifixion... not much, but some at least..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2011 05:15PM by kolobian.

According to Mormon theology, we were pretty decent folks in the pre-existence. But then God caused us to forget everything and be put in animal-like bodies with programmed desires to have sex and kill and eat things.

Well, basically, that means that God gave us brain damage and now he's pissed off at us because we act like we have brain damage.

So then he says: "I don't think I can stand to have those damaged souls in my presence. I love them, but I hate what they've become."

Then his favorite, who never got the brain damage says: "A c'mon dad. There must be something that can be done to make you want them to be in your presence again. How about this? I go down there, without the brain damage, and show them the way that a good child of yours behaves. Then you let them kill me in a really horrible way....Hey, don't cry pops. It's not permanent. I'll be back good as new in three days. Heavens! My spirit won't even be away that long. So then I say I forgive them if they believe in me and worship me along with you. And then you say that you'll forgive them too IF they believe in me and worship me along with you--giving me full god authority over them."

Then God says okay and all the children that he inflicted brain damage on get to be slaves to him and Jesus for all eternity. Yippee!

Is that about it?

One of the best lines ever, totally explains the atonement (and its craziness) in one sentence:

"Johnny, you're the oldest, I'm going to have to spank you because everyone else screwed up, the rest of you get ice cream."

Now I want to go back and give it as testimony, but they won't let me near a mormon church anymore.

God the Fathuh: "You nasty, nasty, vile children! Look at this mess! You will be punished....[pulls out a revolver and a whip] Okay, who's gonna be first. I'm gonna whip you to within an inch of your life and then shoot you dead."

Jesus the Christ: [Walking in from another room] "Dad, Dad! What's going on! I was busy doing my chores and polishing your shoes when I heard something. Tell you what, punish me. These are just children. They don't comprehend what they are doing. Get it out of your system."

God the Fathuh: "Oh, JC, you're my favorite. You always do what your told. But if this is what you want, so be it. It breaks my heart, but I will whip you and shoot you dead...for those miserable, creepy, hateful, misbehavin' vermin that I sometimes call 'my children'."

*whip, whip* *ouch! ouch!* BANG! *silence*

[Kids are sobbing and crying] JC is dead! He died for us!

Jesus the Christ: [wiping off the ketchup and letting his ear clear from the noise of the blank fired by his fathuh] "That's right! I did die for you and don't you forget it. See God the Fathuh over there. He still has his whip and pistol. You'll get it and get it bad, unless you believe in me and do everything I tell you to do. Got it?"

[Kids all nodding in tears.... Just happy to see that JC is alive again, except one in the back with a scowl on his face, thinking "WTF! He didn't even really die! What a fraud!]

God the Fathuh walking out of the room with JC: "That worked out pretty well. Now I can go back to my golfing and boink one of those new wives that I picked up. I'm glad I can leave you in charge for a while. Remember, if they start getting out of line, just pull out the gun and the whip and remind them of your big 'sacrifice' *snicker, snicker*"

Yup. that's it. I'm still not sure why god has to kill his children for punishment--he's the only one who demands it.

Hell, I don't even spank my kids, because even with my chimp brain (+.9% more) I can understand that they are just kids and still maturing.

I think I get it. God created original man (Australopithecus afarensis or something) in his image and modern man has evolved far past him! God is a missing link god.

This never did make sense to me. And, what did it have to do with original sin and the Garden of Eden?

The ethics and morality behind the atonement are abhorrent. Everyone should 'atone' for their own 'sins'. If I make a mistake, why does it make sense to punish someone else? Can you imagine what it would be like to run a society that way?

It's some atavistic vestige of even older cults. There is no valuing of accountability and people learning from their own mistakes.

The 'Saturady Night Lights' version: Jesus was on the conference winning BYU football team, and then had to go back to high school and go through Hell Week before senior year started and he broke his leg, but he fought through the pain to go right to BYU and lead the squad in another awesome season.

I'm trying to work a cheerleader subplot in there somewhere.

What a great thread. I don't know how to participate but it is delicious to have all that mormon wackiness showcased. The more you look the nuttier it gets. I had no idea Skousen said that!

Wow. I have always thought this same thing.

Jesus didn't "sacrifice" he suffered for a finite amount of time and then was rewarded two days later by being resurrected and taking his place as master of the universe.

That's not a "sacrifice" that's an investment--and one using insider knowledge.

Yep, in the Multi-Level Marketing scam that is the plan of salvation, Jehova (jesus) stepped on all of us in order to move up the pyramid of glory & dominion.

We're supposed to thank him for his so-called sacrifice, but he should really be kissing all of our asses for allowing him to be the savior. We could just as easily have suffered for our own sins (and I do mean easily) and all he would have on his resume is scouring the planetary junkyard for the matter necessary to build earth. In that context he's no more qualified for master of the universe than Michael, and at least Michael already had a harem by that time according to Brigham Young.

Right, Jesus went to diamond dealer and we stayed downline. I also think that we do suffer for our sins and then some. We suffer for a lot of other people's sins too.

Nerd Alert!

I think Jesus is what they call a "dunsel" back at Star Fleet.

i had that figured out as a teen. That for a few hours of pain he'd get a lifetime of power and glory. As a demi-god it seemed like a good deal to me.

I hid all these thots deep inside me until i found the truth of the mormon church. then this stuff came out too.

it feels weird not being even christian. Like that's evil or worse. A heritic or a heathen, even. Less than others. now i know that if you guys and even the founding fathers of america had thots like this,, i can't be all that bad :)

One or two points. Firstly, scripture doesn't say that Jesus "bled at every pore"...it says that his sweat was "like" drops of blood. He atoned on the cross not in the garden. Secondly, Jesus was not "demigod"...he was fully God. Thirdly, to fully understand the Christian theology of the atonement one must understand the holy nature of God...something that is perhaps lost in the translation of Christian theology into the Mormon theology of man becoming God.

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One or two points. Firstly, scripture doesn't say
> that Jesus "bled at every pore"...it says that his
> sweat was "like" drops of blood. He atoned on the
> cross not in the garden.

True, which makes it even less remarkable.


Secondly, Jesus was not
> "demigod"...he was fully God.

True, but it doesn't matter. At the time, he was the human avatar of himself. I'd challenge anyone to prove he was a god at all.

Thirdly, to fully
> understand the Christian theology of the atonement
> one must understand the holy nature of
> God...something that is perhaps lost in the
> translation of Christian theology into the Mormon
> theology of man becoming God.

I know a lot of Christians would like to think exmormons are not able to comprehend the "right" Trinity and nature of God. However, many atheists who were never Mormon came from Christian backgrounds. Their comments are similar to the ones above about the atonement being ridiculous.

We can find people who actually died for someone else- trying to save them or whatever. These people did not come back to life. They made a permanent choice to sacrifice themselves for someone. These people are actually still dead unlike God who went right on being God (if you believe the myth). Humans have performed greater sacrifices for each other and have truly died and suffered for others- without coming back to life.

Even if the whole atonement is viewed as symbolic, it still doesn't make much sense. It simply wasn't much of a price to pay. Considering that millions of people prattle on and on about all Jesus did - it seems like the praise is grossly overstated. Every Easter, it's tears and joy for the resurrection coming from the believers.

I think what the atonement is really about is for humans to lie to each other about getting to live forever and not having to feel hopelessly bad about any mistakes they make as sinners. It's a feel-good crutch that ties spring and resurrection into human desires.

If Jesus was fully God and was actually dead for three days, then the universe apparently runs fine without God driving the bus. It didn't need God for those three days.

OK...

1. Bled from every pore vs sweat was "like" drops of blood - the difference is semantics, and was pointed out already, your version is even less interesting. The lds church is fond of stating that Christ bled from every pore.

1a. In the version *you* believe, he atoned on the cross, in other versions it was in both locations, or the other one. It all depends on who you ask and sometimes what mood they are in. Please don't speak as if your version is absolute and the only "true" one.

2. The word "demigod" means the offspring of a god and a mortal. I was raised mormon, where Christ was literally the son of God and the mortal Mary, this fits the definition of demigod. I understand that there are other religions out there were Christ is both the son and the father, but as I'm ex-mormon and I'm on an ex-mormon board, I think I'm OK talking about this point of doctrine in this fashion. Again, please don't speak as if your version is absolute and the only "true" one.

3. I have looked into other churches and so far no one has been able to explain the "atonement" in any fashion that makes sense or desirable. Either "God" is punishing one person for everyone's sins or he is punishing himself for everyones sins.

The whole thing is silly to me. It may make some sense to you, and that's fine.

For the preaching of the cross and all that....For Dagny, your comment about things running without God clearly shows your lack of understanding of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. For Finally Free can you reference any Christian "version" that places the Garden before the cross in the atonement. You say there are some...can you name them?

I said that because you said Jesus was "fully God." If God was still in his other manifestations or other persons, then the Jesus person of god was either not the whole god package or had to be fully independent as a separate god.

I've read more articles than I'd like to admit on this topic over things like the historic teaching of the Trinity that there is one God who exists in three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I've read arguments claiming that that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are really three manifestations of the same Person appearing in different modes (Modalism or Oneness).

So, this makes the atonement even LESS impressive of a sacrifice, IMO. Only a third of himself suffered for a few hours, or one of his three manifestations.

Feel free to elaborate since many of the Christians I've talked to obviously don't understand the Trinity either.

I'm glad that you have found an absolute truth that works for you. One of the reasons I left the LDS church was because I was tired of hearing that people "know" the absolute truth and that everyone else is wrong, all based on a warm "feeling" and interpretation of poorly worded scripture, with no actual proof to back them up. Based on your statements what you believe may work for you, and good for you. But it is not the absolute and only "truth" out there that people believe in.

As for your question to me, regarding other "christian" version of the atonement that happened in the Garden... Well, at the conference that I spoke about above, the General Authority was very clear in stating that he endured the atonement twice, once in the garden and then on the cross. He never explained if there was a reason why it had to be twice or if Christ did half in the garden and the other on the cross, but it was stated plainly that it was in both locations. But he was very clear. I was taught several times in the LDS church that Christ atoned for our sins in the garden... Now, the LDS church may not fit your definition of "christian", but again the definition of "christian" changes depending on who you ask and what mood their in. Frankly, I don't care, this an ex-mormon site, I'm an ex-mormon, so I'll go with that.

With about 5 seconds, far more than I care to do, of research on google, looking for Gethsemane and atonement, I found several articles (as google says, "about 309,000" articles) on the LDS's church teachings on this. Here's the first link, with quotes from Ezra T. Benson on his teachings of said doctrine. http://www.mrm.org/gethsemane. Here's another, straight from an LDS website where it states, "The utter loneliness and excruciating pain of the Atonement begun in Gethsemane reached its zenith..." http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ. Note that it says "begun in Gethsemane"...

I have neither the time, the patience, or the desire to look up every "Christian" reference to atonement doctrine. I never claimed to be a scholar on the subject, but just another person with different teachings and background to yours. Believe it or not, not everyone believes the same thing that you do, even other "Christians" (and by that I do include other religions other than LDS, not all "christian" churches agree in doctrine).

Finally Free, I am glad you clarified that you are talking about the LDS Church and its belief in a "garden" atonement. I understand that but took your post to indicate that there were other groups who shared the same doctrine. I know of none and I don't think it is a doctrine backed up in any way by the Bible which, whether you accept it or not, is the foundation for Christian theology. It might be semantics but to believers a false assumption on something not stated in scripture and resulting in a false doctrine is hardly semantics. I don't know what dictionary others use to define the term demi, but my Oxford says: 1. Half. 2. Partially in an inferior degree: demigod Origin via Fr. from med. L. dimedius 'half'.

You crack me up, Kentish.

Is your version of god all-powerful or not? If so, why didn't he just forgive everyone for doing the things he knew they would do BEFORE he ever created them?

We only do what he already knew we were going to do. If anyone's responsible for our actions it is your god. Is that why he split himself into three beings, then *sort of* had one of them tortured for a few hours, so that he could pretend he'd slapped himself on the wrist for being such a piss-poor designer in the first place?

Maybe you can elucidate for the class why exactly does an all-powerful being who transcends the universe he created require any kind of suffering to pay the price for actions only he deems evil, and which could have easily been avoided if he had created us as his equals in the first place?

Your so-called god could either have:

A) created us as his equals, therefore we couldn't sin and wouldn't have any desire to
B) created us as we are but not created arbitrary laws that contradict the instincts he gave us
C) not created us at all, since there was no reason to in the first place

The mainstream x-ian god makes even less sense than the kolobian god.

The atonement was when God sacrificed Himself to Himself to appease His own wrath.

I wonder if that was a WTF moment, like if a dog gets mad at his own tail and bites it.

Baura, love those distillations. Good one.

It's just the parent child dynamic, made holy.

I made you, you little shit!
Do what I say. You know I could kill/disown you, right?
Oh you're going to have to be an example to your siblings!
Love me! Why are you afraid of me?
No I won't tell you the secret to life, you have to guess. Wrong!

Oh, and it's NOT 3 days, it might be 40 hrs- fri. afternoon to Sunday at early morning- i'm guessing it wasn't 11am, but just after it got light. So it was really 1` day, since he was around on friday and on sunday.

:)