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Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 12:35PM

So, today I asked my wife to read the Wiki on the Book of Abraham and to read By the Gift and Power of God by R. Scott Lloyd.

She agrees with me that it looks like the BoA is well repudiated and asked me why they still leave it as scripture. I told her that they can't take it out of the scriptures without admitting JS was a fraud. And if he was a fraud about that then what about the Temple, BoM, etc.

Her testimony is completely based on emotion and feelings she has gotten while in the Temple and elsewhere. I made the point that God will talk to you wherever you are willing to listen, and often that is where you are quiet enough to hear his voice.

I need to know what church approved materials to start with to help her on her journey out. She has agreed to study with me as I explore my "crisis of faith" as long as we are using church material.

This is the beginning of a long journey. I know I will need infinite patience, love, and understanding. But I would like to know the best place to start for a TBM.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 12:41PM

Personally, I would simply talk with her about your own thoughts and feelings as well as hers and let that be your guide. I would also provide a lot of reassurance that you love her, want to be with her, and spend a lot of time on shared values and interests besides Mormonism.

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 01:14PM

http://20truths.info/mormon/vision.html

Would she read some unbiased non-LDS history, like "Guns, Germs and Steel", and "Devil's Gate"? They are pretty eye opening without any bashing.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 01:42PM

If she wants to start with only "church approved", I strongly suggest the Journal of Discourses... words from the prophets themselves!

Polygamy, Blood Atonement, Adam-God doctrine... she will be shocked at what the church doesn't want its members to know about its past doctrines.

Check out the thread about JoD here: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,243609

It has links to the JoD online, suggestions for topics and where they can be found in the JoD, etc. Good luck!

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Posted by: Zeezromp ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 02:35PM

B H Roberts was a GA and strong defender of Mormonism and stayed LDS despite what he wrote but I couldn't help feeling that had he lived twice as long then he may have eventually quit.

He definately sounded like a non believer in what he wrote.

Not sure it's 'approved' even though the essays and articles were written by a GA.

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Posted by: nebularry ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 02:43PM

and most of all, not antagonistic. Arguing and cajoling will only encourage her to become more entrenched in her beliefs. Live a good example, use "teaching moments" to approach timely topics and always be ready to answer questions. That means you need to be as informed as possible. Buy all the books you can afford to, read them yourself and then leave them lying about the house while you're away so that she can study them without feeling guilty or that you're looking over her shoulder.

Best wishes to you.

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Posted by: tsawyer2 ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 02:46PM

There are many people here who know better than I where to find church approved materials to explore your "crisis of faith" with your wife. I did find one line in your post extra intriguing though:

"I made the point that God will talk to you wherever you are willing to listen, and often that is where you are quiet enough to hear his voice."

I don't know where you live or how able you are to do this, but how about walking with your wife in a beautiful forest somewhere, or perhaps sitting by a mountain stream. Maybe somewhere where the leaves are turning beautiful Autumn hues and you can hear the wind in the leaves and perhaps birdsong? Anywhere in nature.

You can find some quiet time there to talk and enjoy Nature and if you believe in God then why wouldn't he speak to you in his own creation?

For me, I'm not a member of any religion, however, if there is a God I believe she is female and being in Nature makes me feel closer to her.

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Posted by: notmo ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 03:43PM

If you get a copy of their, "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality" (I believe there's an entirely online version), you can read through chapters that you find interesting and refer to the primary (LDS) sources that provide the bulk of their material. I think you will find this an excellent approach. The Tanner's reveal Mormonism's true history using largely the church's own materials.

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Posted by: bishop Rick ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 03:53PM

Is the single most shocking and damning document on mormon history I have read.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leeconfession.html

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 04:15PM

Wow...that is powerful. And the key is "acting in compliance with religious leaders". Someone gives the command and the cult members just go forth and do as they are told.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 04:12PM

Soundslike you are taking it easy with her. Once she begins to question be sure you ask simple questions like: Do you want to live a life that is a lie? Do you want to deceive others? Do you want someone who truly has no authority but likes to make you think he does, tell you how much money to give the organization, what jobs you must have and how much time you need to be away from family? Make it all about the now and not all about Joseph Smith.

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 05:48PM

Here's a comprehensive post I did a couple of years ago that should help:

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -- Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

3. Quote in LDS Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A Treasured Testament", in the July 1993 Ensign (the article is online at www.lds.org; use the Search function to find it):

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Why hasn't the LDS Church taught members and potential converts about Smith's 'magical'-rock-and-hat BoM 'translation' technique? The answer is obvious: Who would remain a member and who would join if they knew the truth?!

Why were the gold plates even needed, since Joseph Smith's 'peep' stone clearly did the job as far as 'translating' the BoM is concerned?! The huge problem is that it says in the BoM (and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations) that 'the Lord' commanded BoM 'prophets' to keep an account of what was going on during their lives as well as teachings and doctrines.

But according to the quote in Nelson's article, there was no gold plate in JS' hat, only the 'magical' rock ('seer' stone) that mysteriously emitted "something resembling parchment" upon which one character at a time would appear. There are 1,150,219 characters in the BoM, which means that it took JS nearly a year (at eight hours per day) of putting his face in his hat and calling out the characters to his scribe to 'translate' the BoM. Why don't church pictures show him doing so?

4. A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

5. For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 06:14PM

I hope Susan I/S archives this -- it is just perfect.

HOWEVER, I have a different view of how to use this material. You are in a wonderful position to forge a joint bond with your wife as co-investigators.

I would go to church with her and then discuss the lessons and speeches, choosing those links and resources that match what she heard from the pulpit.

What this approach does is keep the subject manner manageable and the discussion in the NOW.

There is so much material and so many dirty deeds and lies that it can be like having a dump truck overturn fertilizer on top of your head. So much crap, it can't all be true....

It also avoids the "that was then, this is now" excuse that TBMs often yank out of the apologetic closet. They just heard it taught today.

It also enables you to include, woven in with doctrine, the sights and sounds of hypocrites in action. The snarkiness, the barely-covered-over contempt, the belittling. And you can discuss all of that with the hook of what happened today in church, not with you criticizing ward members out of the clear blue over pancakes. "Do you have to ruin every breakfast?"

You will be permitting reality to be perceived, facilitating the process that is already underway, not forcing open a crack.

There is no emergency, you are already united and facing the church together, wondering why the BOM is still considered scripture. EXCELLENT! As the church begins to move toward it's eventual inevitable conclusion "it is a parable, did you take it literally? Didn't you read the preface, look it says right here that it's author is Joseph Smith and it is based on the inhabitants of early Americans. Jeesh, so many people miss that--BASED. It's a parable, don't you see? God INSPIRED Joseph Smith just like he inspired Jesus..."

When that day comes, the two of you can run from the ward building holding hands and laughing.

As you begin to research what was said at church, it will become a game, like that old radio show "THE REST OF THE STORY." Each of you can research the sources given above and then go out to dinner and compare what you found. She may share with you stuff you didn't even know.

What this does is keep it on equal footing-- two equals fact-checking rather than one person teaching another.

Best and keep us posted, we're here for you with good links when you need them fast....

Anagrammy

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:54PM

...that because of your wife's strong EMOTIONAL investment in Mormonism (the product of many yrs. of LDS 'programming'), based on what you posted, she's not accustomed to thinking RATIONALLY (CRITICALLY) in relation to the chronically dishonest LDS Church and manipulative Mormon religion.

By presenting 'faith'-disrupting facts to her, you'll be 'rocking the boat'. Don't be surprised if your wife becomes angry and defensive. Much of her psychological fortress, the product of LDS 'programming', will be battering-rammed by 'hard' facts/truth about JS, the BoM, early church history, etc. You may be VERY ready psychologically to exit Mormonism, but she isn't, at least not at this point.

If you truly love your wife (many Mormons end up marrying out of family and/or Morg pressure, due to the biological need to have sex, they figure that the other person is about as good as they're going to find, etc.), present the facts, but don't PRESSURE her to leave the Morg. If she's going to exit and stay out of cultic Mo-ism for good, she'll need to make that decision of her own accord. It's a one-step-at-a-time process - and is usually not 'neat-and-clean'.

Final bit of advice: Don't get your hopes up too high about your wife leaving the LDS cult, despite all the facts/evidence that abundantly proves that the foundation of Mo-ism has been deceit from the beginning. Some people are SO wed psychologically and emotionally to Mormonism that they will NEVER leave, no matter how much evidence exists proving that it's a fraud. Latter-day Saints betray their awareness and rational mind all the time.

Best wishes!

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Posted by: icanseethelight ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 07:03PM

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! All of this is incredible. I have already made a misstep, (she sees us as adversaries) just since I posted this morning, but it is fixable. She is very tied up in the emotions of the church, and it will be hard for her. But I know we will get there. To Anagrammy, I will definitely be using your approach to get us to go on this journey together.

I will post an update soon.

And yes, I have printed this post.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 08:45PM


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Posted by: tsawyer2 ( )
Date: September 17, 2011 08:50PM

Anagrammy rules! to take a saying from Tabula...just sayin'

Good Luck!!

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Posted by: Scooter ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:42PM

esp. the Holy High Priestess Waters,

but this would be my rebuttal.

Why can it only come from cult approved materials?

The television doesn't run on only cult approved materials.

Your cell phone doesn't run on only cult approved materials.

This is all open to clean air. Anyone can study anything and get to a yes or no (or not) postition all by themselves.

Why does the cult get a pass and med students, gravity, and food additives do not?

The question is why? Does Stan inhabit your SUV? Does Stan inhabit the NFL? Why does TSCC get a special pass?

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