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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 03:12PM

I am passionate about: freedom of choice and I respect other people's rights to their religion, no matter what it is. I believe that is part of how I function as an American citizen.
That is in essence, part of our constitution. We have the right to practice our religious belief systems in this country. I want my choices respected and I'll do the same for others. It's about loving people unconditionally, and accepting them: as-is. Their religious beliefs, in my view, are not my concern.

Most of the people I know personally over the last 40 years,left the LDS Church as a non believer, (whether officially resigned or not), did so in mostly a reasonable, rational matter, (angst, in most cases was short lived), got on with their lives and live with and love Mormons and get along in the culture, or family, society, etc. as best they can. Families I know personally are intact. That's my personal experience. It may be different than others, and that's only natural because of the people are different and their experiences are different. I continue to associate with and enjoy many Mormon friends and relatives and will continue to do so. They are an important part of my life, especially my husband of over 49 years.

Just because experiences are different, doesn't mean one devaluates another one. That is simply not true.

We can share our widely varied experiences with Mormonism. Our experiences are naturally going to vary. I share my experiences and how I view the possibility of dealing with every phase of leaving the LDS Church. Most of which is dealing with people who are behaving in a difficult manner.

It's important to recognize that we are very, very different,in many instances. Our lives as LDS folks were different depending on whether we are BIC or an adult convert (like I am). Our backgrounds, the geography of our birth, our families and how we were raised are going to vary greatly. I have often said that there are as many different kinds of Mormons as there are Mormons.

My personal goal is to understand how Mormonism works, how it shaped me and my family and how it functions in the world and why it's hard to leave, depending on the person's experiences. It's clear to me, from decades of experience that we are experiences human behavior. It's the same behavior, whether it's context is religious or not. Anything one human can do, so can another. I often say that the behavior remains basically the same just the faces change. I have seen the same basic human behavior in the home, school, church, organizations, work, etc.

This is my analysis. We are not all going to agree. There are no more black and white lines to keep in order of: true/false, right/wrong, righteous/ unrighteousness. We are different, and that is a beautiful thing.


This is an extension on my perspective from my decades of experience, observations, and research and study of over 40 years: Leaving Mormonism aka leaving your tribe - with comments on Exclusion


This is my perspective on understanding the familial consequences of leaving Mormonism... and why some are excluded sometimes permanently from the prior familial, societal, generational group.

Mormonism, in my long experience and observation is more accurately described as a patriarchal, generational, cultural, religious tribe. In fact the word: tribe is used in their lexicon. As a convert, I was considered an adopted member of the tribe. Considering how tribes manifest, it is, in my view, the best way to understand how Mormonism creates a whole paradigm for the individual in a familial, societal, religious context aka tribe complete with it's own unique rituals, music, and language.

This system, including everything in their teachings/doctrines is not just earthly in their view, it's Eternal.
That is the core for their World View and how they incorporate their extended family.

Everything in the life of a truly believing, testimony bearing, totally immersed, temple attending, generational Mormon is about their goal to live Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom together as a family.

This is the context that their view of their Eternal family functions. Therefore, their lives among their family is geared around the rituals/ceremonies-costumes: blessings, baptisms, priesthood advancement for the boys, missions, temple marriages,"Callings" etc, and around and around it goes.

Leaving Mormonism is, for many, leaving their tribe in every sense of the word.

Leaving Mormonism, or leaving your tribe, however one approaches the exit process, as I describe it, is never about being weak. It is about being strong enough to feel the fear and do it anyway even if the consequences of our decisions are not known at the time.It's about being willing to step outside the cultural, religious boundaries of the familial tribe, and be OK doing it

Leaving Mormonism takes a huge dose of courage, tenacity and perseverance to withstand the onslaught of any Mormon who tries to discourage you from making choices that conflict with the long standing, generational, religious traditions.

Exclusion:
Some LDS folks, not all, of course, exclude family members from the rest of the family when they leave their familial, traditional religion. Leaving the LDS Church is, for some remaining members, very difficult.Some take it very hard and do not adjust easily or well. Some take it as an all inclusive rejection and betrayed, are sure they did something terribly wrong that they will be held accountable for in the after life, etc. Some never get over it.

Is there is a reasonable expectation that if a member leaves the LDS Church that all will go on as before? I don't think so. I have rarely seen that happen. In the best of circumstances, members and former members can and do maintain positive relationships on some level.

Members take some drastic steps, even divorce when this kind of decision is made as it has far reaching consequences and results in major changes in the familial, societal, traditional make-up of the family whose World View does not stop at death but continues into the eternities.

This behavior of exclusion is not exclusive to the LDS folks that practice it. It's a long standing practice with thousands of families for a myriad of reasons -- many families exclude, cut out certain family members, (or all of them). Some go so far as to exclude them in their Will and division of their estate completely. It happened again, just recently when a 104 year old woman left her family out of her Will, and left money to other groups, plus her nurse. She happened to be a recluse that didn't allow any of her family to see her for decades.

In a religious setting, such as Mormonism, it's more likely to happen when someone leaves the religion as it's often interpreted as leaving, rejecting and betraying the eternal family. They become the outcast for a number of reasons. It's one of those things that people do, regardless of what their own leaders have advised and taught.

The members have been taught not to be exclusionary.

We could start with the 11th Article of Faith which is LDS doctrine:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I have many more examples of how the LDS Church leaders have taught and counseled their members not to be exclusionary.

I think it's extremely important to recognize that we are all different, our lives, backgrounds, families, all vary. Sometimes we resonate with what someone else experienced, sometimes not.

Anyone who thinks I'm an apologist for the LDS Church is greatly mistaken and doesn't understand fully (in my opinion), how apologist work and what they are designed to do. I am not an apologist for anyone or anything or any organization, religious or otherwise. If you want to know what the LDS apologists do: read their web sites. I do not contribute, in fact, I am an anti-apologists and have been used as such (lifting my comments) because of my writings on RFM which are now on one of their web sites.


Please, please never confuse respect for people's rights to their religious beliefs of choice, with being an apologist. There is a huge, huge difference.

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Posted by: blindmag ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 03:37PM

Maybe something to think about part of the trouble may be due to a chinese wispers effect. They have lay clergy so they keep getting things mesed up and thats part of the whole thing. It adds in things that wernt in the origonal teachings.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 03:45PM


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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 03:45PM

Do you think it is intolerant to oppose a group which lies about its teachings and heartlessly destroys the more basic unit of society--the Family-- while proclaiming to support it?

I believe like you do that everyone has the right to believe whatever creates for them a sacred space, a path to a better life, inner peace, or whatever goal they have.

I don't believe we can allow an organization to abuse the openness of our society by failing to fully disclose their actual teachings and history to investigators.

Our culture strongly places fairness and truth in advertising squarely ahead of a person's message, be it whatever brand of God, or nogod.

I am anti-Mormon and proud to say so. I oppose Mormonism and am intolerant of it NOT because I don't believe what they believe (and I certainly don't) but because I think they're devotion to the survival and growth of their church at any cost is a violation of human rights.

I believe we have an obligation to oppose the oppressor.

I highly respect your intellect and your gift of articulation. I share your promotion of tolerance for religious beliefs but must support those who oppose Mormonism on humanitarian grounds.

I would feel the same way (and do) for other religions which persecute individuals, demean gays and women, and squash personal "God-given" freedoms.


Anagrammy

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Posted by: rmw ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:37PM

I was formulating my own response, but you said my feelings first and best. Thanks Anagrammy.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:52PM

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you think it is intolerant to oppose a group
> which lies about its teachings and heartlessly
> destroys the more basic unit of society--the
> Family-- while proclaiming to support it?
>
> I believe like you do that everyone has the right
> to believe whatever creates for them a sacred
> space, a path to a better life, inner peace, or
> whatever goal they have.
>
> I don't believe we can allow an organization to
> abuse the openness of our society by failing to
> fully disclose their actual teachings and history
> to investigators.
>
> Our culture strongly places fairness and truth in
> advertising squarely ahead of a person's message,
> be it whatever brand of God, or nogod.
>
> I am anti-Mormon and proud to say so. I oppose
> Mormonism and am intolerant of it NOT because I
> don't believe what they believe (and I certainly
> don't) but because I think they're devotion to the
> survival and growth of their church at any cost is
> a violation of human rights.
>
> I believe we have an obligation to oppose the
> oppressor.
>
> I highly respect your intellect and your gift of
> articulation. I share your promotion of tolerance
> for religious beliefs but must support those who
> oppose Mormonism on humanitarian grounds.
>
> I would feel the same way (and do) for other
> religions which persecute individuals, demean gays
> and women, and squash personal "God-given"
> freedoms.
>
>
> Anagrammy

Thousands of people do a lot of terrible things in the name of their religion/deity/savior. That kind of thing has been going on throughout the history of humanity.

In the case of Mormonism, if someone comes to me, or I have an opportunity to present a different interpretation, a different view, a different set of facts, I will do that.
I do not have any control over the outcome however.
That is 100% up to the individual. It's their right to accept and believe any religion they choose, including Mormonism, if that is what they want.

What I think is dangerous, or invasive, or harmful, may not be the case for someone else. Other people have a different view of how religion works.

When we choose an action, we choose the consequences whether we know what they are or not.

If I can take a position (and I do) to oppose abuses of rights of human beings,anywhere, I will do that, in my own way.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:29PM

The quotes posted above place before us the sanctimonious statements of the General Authorities. They make my point about the hypocrisy that is institutionalized in the Mormon Church as "Lying for the Lord." And we all know that human life and the quality of that life is OF NOT INTEREST WHATSOEVER to the heartless, soul-less corporation posing as a Church.

Sure there are the same problems in other religions. Do you support doing nothing about inequality for women because gender discrimination takes place in other countries? Of course not.

We in America make sure that no one makes claims about the health properties of a food that are not true. You see them carefully saying "Supports Prostate Health." Why is that? Because in America, you can't say "cures enlarged prostate" or even "helps shrink enlarged prostate" unless you can support the statement as fact.

Freedom of religion gives people the right to make claims that are unsupported, like "Be Healed Here this Saturday" or "Paying Tithing is Your Best Retirement Policy." It doesn't give anyone the right to pretend to be something you are not. What I am saying is that the Mormon Church is ABUSING our American freedom of speech by peddling membership in a church while NOT accurately representing the beliefs.

The beliefs are irrelevant. It is the lack of integrity in the advertising that I'm calling a human rights violation. When you couple the false advertising with lack of transparency in how they manage donated funds, you see that this so-called Church suffers from the same corruption you find in many corporations today. You would not be in favor of continuing to let corporations con people that they are getting mortgage refinancing, when in fact they were really peddling gullible and desperate people a glorified home improvement loan, would you?

How about a church which targets those who are the most vulnerable, those undergoing tragedy or transition, and makes them an offer which sounds too good to be true, and in fact, the real doctrine is far from what was presented.

Full disclosure is expected in your cup of tea. Transparency is required of our non-profits in exchange for the significant tax relief--let's demand both in our religious sector as well.

Anagrammy




We seem to care

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 04:04PM

Sorry, SusieQ#1, you have to hate the Morg in EXACTLY the same way I do!!!!!!! No variation is allowed. We all have to think alike. (hmmmmm why does that sound familiar?)

All kidding aside, you are a valuable addition to RFM.

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Posted by: michaelm (not logged in) ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 04:10PM

"Their religious beliefs, in my view, are not my concern."

The constitution and country that you claim grants freedom of choice has not granted that freedom to the indigenous people in the United States. They are still struggling for their freedoms. For example, zoning laws protect church buildings from having bars or nude strip clubs near them. There are no protections for sacred hills such as Bear Butte in Meade County South Dakota.

I can see your point in your post, but there is danger in closing one's eyes to the history of the Bible being used as a weapon of mass destruction. Mormonism has proven itself to be dangerous. For that reason I speak against the Book of Mormon.

Here is a viewpoint that many might have not considered:

http://64.38.12.138/News/2011/002732.asp

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:06PM

Great points and I agree with the link. Thanks. There is no group with less respect for anything other than their own than the christian right.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:19PM

The members of the church have been taught not to be exclusionary?????? Not only is that not true, but it is unconscionably insulting.

Did you ever hear of a little thing called prop 8? If that was the mormons being "inclusionary" I would sure hate to see it if they actually did become exclusionary.

The church is hateful. And if you are a mormon you are part of that. Maybe the big guys set the policy, but as long as you are mormon you are part of that hate.

This has made my family very hard to take even though they are accepting of me in their "mormon" way. But no matter how loving they are, in the back of my mind, they are part of a church that is actively working to take away my rights. That is true, and SusieQ, that is EXCLUSIONARY by any definition.

I am extremely offended by your post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 05:20PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:31PM

Non-members and temple marriages.

People can believe anything they want so long as they do not push it on anyone else. Once they try to push it on someone else, they interfere with the rights of others to believe what they want.

The LDS church has a very long history of trying to push their religious beliefs on others.

Oh, and we can also be critical of the members that donate money to an institution that is trying to legislate their beliefs onto others.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:36PM

To try to claim that the LDS church is inclusive or that they teach its members not to be exclusionary would be an absurd disregard of the evidence.

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:36PM

Branch Davidians or Heaven's Gate or the Peoples Temple? What if you lived in 1857 and your loved one immigrated to California via the Baker-Fancher party?

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:46PM

Thank you to Deconstructor (and his great web site) for posting these quotes. It's my opinion that many of the members don't listen, or don't know what their leaders have taught them.


(From a post by Deconstructor - several years ago - 2006, I believe, on instruction from leaders advice on how to treat others.)

"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous, and open, and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method or worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, July 2001

And again in the last General Conference...

"We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must always be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, Fall 2003 General Conference, Sunday Morning Session

Another living Apostle of the church has condemned bothering those who do not agree with Mormonism:

"That instruction continues today to be part of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In enumerating the key doctrines of the restored Church, Joseph Smith said, while "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience," we also "allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" (A of F 1:11)."

"That is what Jesus taught His disciples - including 'a certain lawyer' - through the parable of the good Samaritan. And that is what He is teaching us today through living prophets and apostles. Love one another. Be kind to one another despite our deepest differences. Treat one another with respect..'"
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, "Doctrine of Inclusion," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 35

No faithful Mormon should ever harass or contend with former members or people of other faiths:

"He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me [saith the Lord], but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away." (3 Ne. 11:29-30.)

"With that call comes the commitment to emulate the patterns of the Prince of Peace. That goal is shared by worthy servants of the Master, who would not speak ill of others nor provoke contention over teachings declared by ancient or living prophets. Certainly no faithful follower of God would promote any cause even remotely related to religion if rooted in controversy, because contention is not of the Lord."

"To begin, show compassionate concern for others. Control the tongue, the pen, and the word processor. Whenever tempted to dispute, remember this proverb: "He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace." (Prov. 11:12; see also Prov. 17:28.)"

"Bridle the passion to speak or write contentiously for personal gain or glory. The Apostle Paul thus counseled the Philippians, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." (Philip. 2:3.)
- Apostle Russell M. Nelson, "The Canker of Contention," Ensign, May 1989, Page 68st

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:53PM

If you actually believe what the leaders *say* while the church continues exclusionary practices over which those same leaders have control, it makes you appear that either you are selective in your attention or you have been fooled. Even as far as what they have said, have you forgotten Dallin Oaks' conference talk last year that caused a great deal of pain to some exmormons here because it encouraged exclusion by their families, and what about the points MJ brings up about Prop 8 and women in authority? All *that* comes from the same leadership you approvingly quote. Do you believe what they say or what they do? Doing is teaching, too--and much more powerful teaching at that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 06:22PM by robertb.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:05PM

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you actually believe what the leaders *say*
> while the church continues exclusionary practices
> over which those same leaders have control, it
> makes you appear that either you are selective in
> your attention or you have been fooled. Even as
> far as what they have said, have forgotten Dallin
> Oaks conference talk last year that caused a great
> deal of pain to some exmormons here because it
> encouraged exclusion and what about the points MJ
> brings up about Prop 8 and women in authority. All
> *that* comes from the same leadership you
> approvingly quote. Do you believe what they say or
> what they do? Doing is teaching, too--and much
> more powerful teaching at that.


I don't believe in any of the claims of the LDS Church. I also don't listen to any of their talks. . They will do what they want, and if I have any power to change something I don't agree with, I will. I am not a member. What they do and teach has practically no bearing on my personal life. I have very little control, if any, over what they teach and believe.

I also don't spent any energy dwelling on what I think are negative practices and teachings that are, in my opinion, unacceptable. If someone else wants to believe their religion is the answer to how they live their life, they can do that.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:17PM

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I don't believe in any of the claims of the LDS
> Church.

So, you are using those quotes that you say you do not believe to justify your claim "that the church leaders have taught the members not to be exclusionary" Hmmm, not following that logic.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:35PM

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SusieQ#1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I don't believe in any of the claims of the LDS
> > Church.
>
> So, you are using those quotes that you say you do
> not believe to justify your claim "that the church
> leaders have taught the members not to be
> exclusionary" Hmmm, not following that logic.


I don't have any confidence in your ability to understand anything I post. Thanks for reading, anyhow. :-)

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:08PM

I don't think I trust their ability to judge reality OR me.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:31PM

It's my observation that very few believing members listen to anything they are taught in talks, conferences, Ensign addresses by he prophet, etc and practice it. Most don't remember it.
Fortunately, I am married to someone who does!


Not only that, most, from my experience don't even read their scriptures. Not even 15 minutes a day unless they are assigned something or are a teacher or on a mission. Then those tend to read a little more than the average. I have a lot of fun asking a believing Mormon how they liked the part in the BOM of Brigham Young crossing the plains!:-)

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:53PM

Hey SuzieQ, By their works ye shall know them. How ridiculous to post all those quotes here where everyone knows them by heart already.
Your friends the apostles may stand up in conference and say those things all they want, but I know them by their WORKS not their words.

And their works are hateful and exclusionary. Period. THey do damage.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:16PM

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey SuzieQ, By their works ye shall know them.
> How ridiculous to post all those quotes here where
> everyone knows them by heart already.
> Your friends the apostles may stand up in
> conference and say those things all they want, but
> I know them by their WORKS not their words.
>
> And their works are hateful and exclusionary.
> Period. THey do damage.


We can interpret the words and works any way we choose They can be seen as innocuous, or damaging or anything in between. We are free to express our opinions.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:23PM

"We can interpret the words and works any way we choose" What a cop out. You really should run for office.

Words have meanings--clear concise meanings. We have this thing and it is called a dictionary where words have designated meanings. This aids us in communication.

To infer that we are all free to interpret words anyway we want is a very manipulative and apologetic concept.

"I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 06:25PM by blueorchid.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:32PM

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "We can interpret the words and works any way we
> choose" What a cop out. You really should run for
> office.
>
> Words have meanings--clear concise meanings. We
> have this thing and it is called a dictionary
> where words have designated meanings. This aids
> us in communication.
>
> To infer that we are all free to interpret words
> anyway we want is a very manipulative and
> apologetic concept.
>
> "I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the
> word "is" is.

I see we are not communicating at all. So sorry.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:35PM

Actually, I think people are communicating just fine, but you don't want to own up to what you have said when others disagree with you. It irritates me, for one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 06:35PM by robertb.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:10PM


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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:16PM

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t

MJ has had a long standing habit of picking something apart and then arguing and debating ad nauseum. I won't do that. If my comments are not understood, when I am as clear, precise, and to the point as possible, then just drop it and don't read my posts.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:18PM

SusieQ why is it that you have not addressed a single FACT that I have mentioned but only choose to attack ME personally?

I invite anyone to take a dispassionate look through this thread to determine who it was that started making the personal attacks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 07:41PM by MJ.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:14PM

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, I think people are communicating just
> fine, but you don't want to own up to what you
> have said when others disagree with you. It
> irritates me, for one.


I can't imagine why you can't understand what I post I am clear, precise, and to the point. Sorry you missed it.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:14PM

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, I think people are communicating just
> fine, but you don't want to own up to what you
> have said when others disagree with you. It
> irritates me, for one.


I can't imagine why you can't understand what I post as I am clear, precise, and to the point. Sorry you missed it.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:36PM

You are attempting to gaslight people who disagree with you and hold you to what you have said. If you don't understand what "gaslighting" means, perhaps you can look it up after your nap.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:23PM

Many times lessons are taught trough policies and actions.

The church leaders teach that it is OK to exclude women from positions of power by excluding women from positions of power.

The church leaders teach that it is OK to exclude non-members from important family functions by implementing policies that exclude non-members from important events like weddings.

The church leaders teach that it is OK to exclude gays by implementing policies that exclude gays living normal lives with normal healthy sexual relationships.

To ignore all the teaching the leadership does via policies and actions is, IMHO, willful ignorance.

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Posted by: LCMc ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:48PM

Words are great but their actions speak louder.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 05:59PM

LCMc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Words are great but their actions speak louder.


Unfortunately, many members don't fit their actions to the words of their own prophets and consequently, many people are hurt and abused, betrayed, excluded, etc.

I am also passionate about treating others the way I want to be treated. I have learned through trial and error that I can obtain the kind of outcome I desire if I have an attitude that accepts people just the way they are, and show unconditional love. I don't even try to change anyone's views of their religious choices, not anymore.

I am interested in living in harmony and peace. That is the goal that I strive for, after not finding it in Mormonism, I know now how to find it: take my power back and own it and live my life with me in the drivers seat.

To do that I need an attitude of gratitude. I know what the prison of hate and anger is like. Been there done that. Those negative emotions tie the person inseparably to that which they hate and rage against. It's impossible to have peace in one's life if living in the prison of hate and anger.

I learned a valuable lesson many years ago. When we point our finger and call people names, there are four fingers pointing right back at us.

We all deal with leaving Mormonism in our own way. I share how I do it because I've tried it many ways and know what works best for me to have a greater sense of freedom and peace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 06:19PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: HusbandofTBM ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:41PM

"Please, please never confuse respect for people's rights to their religious beliefs of choice, with being an apologist. There is a huge, huge difference."
SusieQ,
Love it....... exactly......woo hoo!
That what I meant when I posted video in the thread: I'm a agnostic but....
I don't have to believe or agree to enjoy watching about their story.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:54PM

HusbandofTBM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Please, please never confuse respect for people's
> rights to their religious beliefs of choice, with
> being an apologist. There is a huge, huge
> difference."
> SusieQ,
> Love it....... exactly......woo hoo!
> That what I meant when I posted video in the
> thread: I'm a agnostic but....
> I don't have to believe or agree to enjoy watching
> about their story.


I come from a strong Christian background - a couple decades of Christian teachings in the home.

It's interesting how those teachings pop in my head, ones that deal with the human condition and how people behave.
Like:
"as I have loved you, love one another"
On the cross:"forgive them Father for they know not what they do"
re: forgiveness "Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

I don't have any need to believe in the doctrines, but I'll adopt universally decent teachings of human behavior anywhere I can find them.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:19PM

I reserve the right to criticize the church or any organization if they are preaching hatred or trying to legislate their views. That does not mean I have to hate everything about that group or hate all of its memebers. I also need to remember that they have a right too believe whatever they like within the law and so do the rest of us.There are things about the Morg that most of us can agree are wrong, but that is not the same as saying there is nothing good there or that all Mormons are homophobic, misogynist racists. Having a degree of tolerance is not the same as being an apologist or giving the church a pass.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:19PM

HusbandofTBM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Please, please never confuse respect for people's
> rights to their religious beliefs of choice, with
> being an apologist. There is a huge, huge
> difference."
> SusieQ,
> Love it....... exactly......woo hoo!
> That what I meant when I posted video in the
> thread: I'm a agnostic but....
> I don't have to believe or agree to enjoy watching
> about their story.


OH.... I forgot to say: THANK YOU ...you GOT IT!! One out of a couple dozen is not too bad, I guess!! LOL

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Posted by: LCMc ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:44PM

I must say SusieQ#1-- passive/agressive.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 06:55PM

LCMc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I must say SusieQ#1-- passive/agressive.


I have been and am always as clear as possible. Nothing passive about me!
But it did give me a good laugh. Thanks for the joke.

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Posted by: rmw ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:14PM

OK...I have to point this out because the irony made me laugh out loud.

SusieQ#1 said in response to being passive aggressive,

"I have been and am always as clear as possible. Nothing passive about me! But it did give me a good laugh. Thanks for the joke."

The response itself is 100% passive/aggressive, calling the poster's sincere comment a "joke" (aggressive) and telling them thank you for the laugh (passive).

Now Susie, before you jump all over me I'm not saying you are a passive/aggressive person - I do not know you. I'm just pointing out the irony. Maybe you even did it on purpose as a joke.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:18PM

rmw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK...I have to point this out because the irony
> made me laugh out loud.
>
> SusieQ#1 said in response to being passive
> aggressive,
>
> "I have been and am always as clear as possible.
> Nothing passive about me! But it did give me a
> good laugh. Thanks for the joke."
>
> The response itself is 100% passive/aggressive,
> calling the poster's sincere comment a "joke"
> (aggressive) and telling them thank you for the
> laugh (passive).
>
> Now Susie, before you jump all over me I'm not
> saying you are a passive/aggressive person - I do
> not know you. I'm just pointing out the irony.
> Maybe you even did it on purpose as a joke.


Kiddo, the joke is on you. That is how I see it. See? We don't all agree. But what I post is never passive aggressive. Not even close. I thought you were joking, it was so bizarre, and so full of sarcasm, that is how I read it, I thought it was an off the wall joke. Oh well. Sometimes I don't interpret words on the page like they are meant. Happens.

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Posted by: rmw ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:43PM

Maybe when LCMc called you passive aggressive it was a joke. I didn't read it that way, but you're right, if you thought it was a joke, then your comment is not passive aggressive.

I never said that we need to all agree, I feel that I am quite good at accepting people for who they are while creating appropriate boundaries. I do not think that you have to agree with the people on this board or that they have to agree with you or that we have to agree on each other. I simply thought your comment was ironic, and even explicitly stated that I was not judging you as a person or even saying that my interpretation may not be correct. The joke is not on me kiddo.

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Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:23PM

tl;dr

this board is not about freedom of religion - it is about recovery from mormonism

(i don't think anyone here has ever actually advocated taking away the rights of mormons to be mormon, but i could be wrong)

this is a place where people share their bad experiences with mormonism and mormons - if that topic gets such a strong reaction out of you then maybe you should find somewhere else to be

a freedom of religion type message board, perhaps?

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:24PM

I don't agree with the teachings and claims of other religions either but I don't disparage them by insulting my friends and loved ones that are believers. I don't call them names, accuse them of nefarious abusive acts, and show hate and rage and anger toward them. That's just not me. I don't want that done to me, and I am not going to do that to anyone else. I won't live in the prison of hate and anger.

Sometimes, I believe it's important to keep personal opinions to ourselves. In the long run anyhow.
If I want lasting relationships, I learn when to voice my opinion and when not to.

My whole goal leaving the LDS Church, my Exit Process (or recovery as some call it) is to understand how Mormonism functions in the world, and why, and find a place of peace and love and human decency that brings me the greatest freedom and joy.
And I have done that. I have long ago made peace with all of my life.

I've had my share of the Good, the Bad, the Ugly. I've put it all to bed, and leave it alone now. That is the the best thing i can do for me at this point. I don't need to rehash anything or have any regrets. But that's just me.

Some of my thoughts on what Recovery means to me or the Exit Process from Mormonism, as I define it - con't from Leaving Your Tribe.


This is a Recovery board, and as such, I have given a lot of thought to what that means in my life.

Recovery, is defined for my own situation as The Exit Process from Mormonism. My experience and observation is that it's a highly personalized, individualized process. No two people or families are the same. It requires dealing with a large number of variables, and family dynamics.

It's a Do It Yourself Project with no manual and no rules.
We can read about other people's experiences, and learn from them, but ultimately, we do what will work for us.

We all make our own decisions about how to do it, which seems to be a trial and error process much of the time. What one person experiences or works for them, may not work for someone else.

This is how I do it. It works for me, but may not work for others.

There is no right or wrong way to deal with the process. It's not black and white. What is right for one won't work for another person as their situations are often quite different. We think differently as human beings.

Our backgrounds are very different also: BIC and convert most often, in my observation, will naturally approach the Exit Process differently. When members leave the LDS Church, (as in stop believing) it varies from a very young age to a much older age, sometimes in our senior years, like I did.

Part of that process is a variety of stages that are a direct result of changing our mind about our religious, familial, cultural belief system. Those stages may be similar to others or very different.

A few things helped me immensely.
First of all, I needed to recognize that we are human beings, more alike than different: we put our pants on one leg at a time, we experience the same emotions that all humans experience.

Religion is only one defining part of our human experience. For some, it's more globally encompassing than others. Mormonism tends to be more globally encompassing because of it's strong generational traditions and rituals. That is particularly evident for BIC and generational members. Not so much, depending on the person, for adult converts as they have a couple decades of life that they bring with them.

This sums it up quite nicely:
"The individual has always had to struggle to resist the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
--Nietzsche

It's comforting to know we are not alone. When we leave our "tribe" and become an outsider, it's a process that may be similar to others, or very different, no matter what group or religion is involved. The more strict and controlling and authoritative the religion, as in Mormonism, the harder it is, in my experience. Some can leave very easily. They can walk away with little change. For others, it's extremely difficult and has far reaching dynamic results.

Along the way I have concluded there are a few basics that worked for me: we all get the same thing: we live, we die, we do stuff in between. There are no wouldas, shouldas, couldas, or what if's. What is -- is. We play the cards we are dealt.

We make the best decisions we know how with the information we have at the time. It's OK to change our mind when we find/receive new, better information. Don't let the past mess up my present.

There are no fantasy parents, fantasy siblings, fantasy marriages, etc. Making major decisions that are far reaching, will, in the main, be difficult.

My mind tends to see the Big Picture. After reading The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell (a textbook for a local college religion course), it became easier to see Mormonism in the Big Picture as one of many God Myths through out the history of humanity that humans naturally gravitate to through their generational, familial, cultural, societal background. The geography of our birth plays a large role in our beliefs. Where we are born in the world very often determines our religious traditions and rituals for our entire life.

I found that it takes work, on our part, to give ourselves permission to be authentic and create a personalized, evolving new World View and be confident about it. It's natural, to have doubts and concerns along the way. It's an evolutionary process, in my experience and observation. Years after leaving the LDS Church, I am adding and subtracting notions from my new World View.

I realized I needed to take my power back and own it, early on. I needed to be in the drivers seat and trust myself! This was my life, and I was going to live true to myself.

Everyone is different: for some anger, resentment, distaste, disgust, etc. can last for years. For others, those kinds of emotions are quickly replaced by others that lead to making peace with all of it. Humor is very healing! I fall in the latter group.

The end result of this very personalized, Do It Yourself, Exit Process from Mormonism based on the dynamics of our individual lives and families, is that former members will very often develop very different World Views and different opinions. Ideas and opinions that were considered incorrect and abhorrent in the past, often become acceptable.

It's natural for human beings to see the world only through their eyes. Changing from a concrete religious World View with little to no deviation, as in Mormonism, to one that is open and evolving can be jarring and upsetting when confronted with different opinions. Learning the skills of a skeptic, using logic and reason in a new way can be difficult. It can all feel wrong at first. Eventually, we each find our niche, usually through experimentation. We find what works for us as a former Mormon.

I am a young adult convert, so my interpretation and experiences will be different than a generational BIC member, for instance. The dynamics of the home, and whether it's a: Spirit of the Law, or Letter of the Law (more fundamentalist in nature) makes a big difference in how we each internalized Mormonism also. My experience is predominately with a Spirit of the Law dynamic.

It's an exhilarating experience! Scary at times! Taking off the Mormon filter from our eyes and ears takes some getting used to. We often completely change our hair styles, and our wardrobe, discarding the regulation garments. The world looks much different. There are new ways of looking at everything. All of our thoughts and actions take on a new perspective.

For me, it was necessary to use humor (daily), write satire and parody, write about the process regularly, and not take it all too seriously. It was also necessary for my sense of well being to know I was OK, to keep my self confidence, self respect, self esteem cooking on high! I was going to change my mind and do it my way! And I could do that. I didn't need to be fixed by anyone or anything. I was not defective. I'd figure it out. I could do that. I also needed to learn how to set boundaries and how to protect myself. That is on-going.

This is my list of how I know I'm out -- or recovered as some say, or the Exit Process is about as done as it's going to get.:-)
Like many, I live with and love Mormons and always will. They are some of my relatives and dear friends.
It's important, for me, in my situation to maintain as many positive relationships as possible. (Not always continually possible, however.)

This is my check list. I read it from time to time to see how I'm doing. If you make a list, yours will naturally be different.

I know I'm really out when........ I've made peace with it.
The emotional attachment has been replaced with love of all of life. (Recent post on The Power of Emotional Bonds/Attachments to Beliefs by Faith covers this subject.)

The following is how I made peace with it. The short version.

I know I'm really out when.....
...There are no more resentments, anger, regrets, or self recrimination, explosive responses, name calling, etc.

...I can live with and love Mormons and accept them like anyone else

...I can be kind to members, and maintain a rational relationship and friendship like everyone else.

...I understand that Mormonism is a religion like thousands of others and it's OK to change my mind, leave it, and know I am OK and was OK all along.

...I can respect all people's rights to choose their own religion (or none) as a valid choice and honor that right.

...I love my family and friends unconditionally, regardless of their religious choices.

...I own your own power, set healthy boundaries when necessary, and take charge of my own life, living it today, not for some reward after death.

...I choose my friends regardless of their religious choices.

...I can go to a church building, read their scriptures, articles, etc, attend functions associate with Mormons like anyone else.

I didn't start out with this list. It evolved naturally during my process. I have added to it from time to time as I check off those automatic thinking scripts from Mormonism. (Another list in another post - I'm a list maker!-)

I will always live with and love Mormons, especially my dear husband of 48 years, and some of my family that are members. This is now I maintain a healthy relationship with my family and friends. Every person teaches me something, and most often, enriches my life.

The result of this kind of thinking has given me the greatest freedom, joy and peace of mind.


Take it or leave it. This is my story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 07:26PM by SusieQ#1.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:37PM

Is vastly different than respecting what they believe.

If a person believes that genocide is the answer to the world's problems, well, I may have to respect his right to believe that but I don't have to respect that belief at all. In fact, I would most certainly stand up to "disparage" that belief if it came from ANYONE, including loved ones. So, if someone were to believe that Samuels 15:2-3 justifies genocide, I would most certainly "disparage" that belief.

But that is just me, I do believe in confronting very dangerous beliefs, and depending on how dangerous the belief is, I don't care who I insult.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: September 18, 2011 07:35PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2011 07:37PM by MJ.

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