Ron, I usually REALLY enjoy your posts, but I'd like to point one thing out. You began your OP on the term GAY by telling people who don't like that term being used as a pejorative...
"Don't get your knickers in a twist." That was at 9:25 AM.

After many people took the time to explain how and why they disagreed with your original post your mood seemed to change quite a bit. In fact, your final words at 10:46 were an an angry(?)...
"I'm done here."

Perhaps it is YOU that shouldn't get your knickers in a twist? Or is it just Gays who's knickers get twisted?

As someone who is quite often wrong, and sometimes publicly wrong and called out on it, I've found that there is no shame at admitting it and learning a better way, especially from the bright people on this board.

As a wise man once said (many times)...
Just Sayin'

In 2007 the Elden Rice family of Santa Rosa CA sued the school district for issuing their daughter Rebekah a warning and a notation in her file for responding to taunts by saying "that's so gay!" The Rices were Mormons and Eagle Forum members and campaigned against gay civil rights in California. Rebekah Rice's classmates were well aware of her family's anti-gay stance because she went to public demonstrations with them. Her classmates took it upon themselves to taunt her about polygamy and Mormonism, and she responded with that. The Rices lost the suit.

Naturally, the story came up here on exmormon.org and some people got hot. I remember two or three posters attacking flattopSF because he wrote that language matters, and you can't just downplay the depth of meaning that words carry. I guess they wanted to defend their right to marginalize people.

Since subjectifying the meaning of a slur further alienates the object of the slur, I agree with you, sonoma.

because it is one of the MOST progressive and Gay friendly communities in the US. And yet, even here we can't completely escape Mormon-fueled homophobia. And even though the Elden Rice family eventually lost tbeir case, it still cost our local schools hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight the suit. That includes the money that I pay in property taxes that goes directly to schools (something that I'm glad about, even though I don't have children).

Thanks for your insights and for some historical perspective.

It not like they are trying to say it was really made in Mexico.

I myself have been guilty of using the word as a pejorative many, many, many times and am guilty of still using it. It was something I grew up with as part of my everyday language. I have never used it as a slur against gay people, yet that is no excuse for perpetuating its' use. If I am going to advocate equal rights (which I most definitely do), I have to eliminate it from my language as a pejorative.

Saying "don't get your knickers in a twist" regarding using "gay" as a pejorative is a lot like your typical TBM saying "don't get offended because my religion and its' members have offended you."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2011 02:19PM by dressclothes.

If we didn't disagree from time to time, where's the fun in it? "I'm done here" meant solely that kicking it around any more wasn't going to change our outcomes. No harm, no foul. I just learned long ago that kicking the dead horse doesn't revive it.

All I meant to say was that I don't think kids (most, not all) think twice about dubbing something "gay". It's a figure of speech that you and others define as a perjorative. I respect that, just don't agree with it totally.

Thanks for the kind words. Oh, and I never get mad, I just go have a cigarette. :)

Ron

it means.... like when a little kid says "shit"... without knowing what it means....mostly an exclamation!! i can see that....on little kids..... teens are another story.... it was still some good postings!! :) group hug??? :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2011 02:25PM by bignevermo.

There's no fun in being gay-bashed. Ask me how I know.

Some people think that saying "that's so gay" is OK because of some rationalization. I have to wonder of these people would say the same for the following uses of the words "welsh", "Jew", or the "N word"

"To welsh on a bet"
"He jewed me out of $10"
"'N word' rich"

All these were used regularly around me when I was young. One could apply Tabula Rasa's logic to all of these, but they don't. The logic only seems to apply to "gay" and I have to wonder why.

I have tried to stop using the word Gay as a pejorative myself, but I gotta tell you that it rankles me more when people use the word "retard".

What if they're referring to something that is literally retarded?

i.e. "This lecture series is retarded by those kids in the back" "the water in this hose is retarded" etc.

Certain words, phrases, have different meanings in our groups of friends.

Because we can't choose how words are meant in public, they should be avoided in public.

So, words like the f word the r word the g word and the n word and the b word can be thrown around with friends, but once you get into a public setting, all these words carry their awful baggage.

It's just easier to avoid them in public.

On a side note, I agree that the word "gay" is usually a perjorative that is substituted for "lame" and that's really not accurate.

It should be used for things of a fabulous or homosexual nature.

Like when a man says that his love for Christ exceeds all of his other loves.

THAT is gay.

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Like when a man says that his love for Christ
> exceeds all of his other loves.
>
> THAT is gay.


But a man saying that is "lame" also,....I'm confused...

I'll shoot again in the dark.

When people say, that's "gay," they usually mean "that's lame."

Which isn't cool.

However, when a man says, "I love men" it is accurate to say "that is gay." Because it is.

BUT! It shouldn't mean that men loving men is "lame." Because it's not.

Gay shouldn't mean "lame." It should mean gay.

Or sometimes happy or fabulous.

Isn't it also "wrong" to refer to something as "lame"? Didn't the term "lame" originally refer to being crippled?

Personally, I am against burying language. The minute you make one term taboo, another one pops up. I think it's more important to focus on discriminatory and prejudicial attitudes than banning so-called taboo words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 12:36PM by knotheadusc.

Good point about "lame".

Language gets buried all the time, but I agree about the undesirability of burying language upon political grounds. Scrubbing the "n" word from Huckleberry Finn, for example, is extremely egregious. The book literally doesn't make sense without it.

This is an informative thread. Thanks to all.

RJ, is this okay:

Dad tries on a sweater upon wife's suggestion and the son offers, "no, dad, that sweater is pretty gay?" The son didn't mean "pretty lame", he meant that only a homosexual would wear such a sweater. Is this an okay use of the word?

Or this:

Dad is watching a good UFC ground 'n' pound on TV and daughter walks in, watches for a bit and says, "Dad, that's really gay." Dad, thinking she means "lame", tries to argue the athletic merit of MMA; but the daughter interjects, "no Dad, I'm means it's GAY." Although there isn't anything inherently homosexual about MMA, somehow I could see what she was saying based on the positions of the fighters but also sense that her use of the word 'gay' was somehow off.


Any insight to these scenarios from anybody would be appreciated.

(My wife and I did very well in teaching our kids about issues of racism but we didn't do as well on issues of homosexuality etc.)

Sorry.