I thought this was a good discussion, so anyone who would like to continue: how are we doing here at RfM? Are we helping each other recover? Should we be more careful about giving out advice, since we aren't professionals? Is this site useful in providing a safe haven from Mormonism and an opportunity to vent? Are people looking for support in the form of validation of their opinions, or do they want their ideas to be challenged?

I still like the idea that instead of comparing it to professional psychologists or even AA, we should define it by whether or not it actually helps people recover.

The fact is, this site is responsible for helping hundreds and hundreds of people recover from Mormonism.

Based on that, it certainly is a recovery group.

I guess, on the other hand, it would be interesting to see evidence of harm because of bad advice given. Personally, I am very careful helping out some of the younger posters (like anon123) because I have no idea really what kinds of bad things could happen with the advice I give.

But if someone tries to claim that professionals are required, well, AA is an example of a group that is considered a recovery group by PROFESSIONALS of at least three disciplines (legal, medical, psychological) QUALIFIED to determine if a group is a recovery group or not. AA does not have professionals run their groups, so it seems clear to me, based on solid evidence that having professionals run groups IS NOT REQUIRED to be a recovery group.

I think it is hard to tell. Some people say they are being helped and there is no reason to doubt them, but how many others may have taken poor advice and gotten burned or been turned off the board because they felt insulted or demeaned by someone? I don't think any of us really know because those people don't stick around. Then there are some who may be encouraged to wallow in the victim mentality. That is something else we don't know. At any rate, my original point is that we are not professionals.That doesn't mean we should stop posting. We are probably more of a support group than a recovery group. To me, recovery implies some sort of professional group. If MJ disagrees, fine. I'm not going to argue.He has an opinion and so do I.

I also think we could be a little more careful in dishing out advice. We can't spend all our time worrying about an unstable person ruining his life because of us, but we still don't need to read a short paragraph and decide, in our infinite wisdom, that someone we know nothing about should divorce or cut off his family.That strikes me as irresponsible.

Wouldn't evidence of recovery denote recovery? What exactly does the term "professional" add to the definition?

I think a professional group with a qualified person in charge which meets in real life would eliminate a lot of the crap, personal insults, backbiting and irresposnible advice. There is no one here to do that and most of us don't know what we are doing when it gets into the realm of serious problems. It is pretty much hit and miss. I think this is a good place to vent, to meet other people with similar problems and to get advice on day to day problems, but people with serious issues stemming from the church or anything else need more than we can offer.And then there is the question of what is evidence of recovery? And what about those who have been hurt or left because of lack of support? They aren't here to tell us their stories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 01:20AM by bona dea.

Even in professionally run groups, people can have issues so bad that they require intense one on one counseling. The fact that a person needs more than a recovery group can offer does not disqualify it as a recovery group.

And AGAIN, the MEDICAL, LEGAL and PSYCHOLOGICAL professions endorse groups that are not professional lead as recovery groups.

MJ, why don't you just shut up and stop yelling? I know what you think and you have no idea what I think. You are putting words in my mouth and making a fool of yourself in the process. I am done with you, so rant on if you like.You really need to grow up and stop fighting with everyone. It is really tiresome. Good night.

Yes, I understand that you don't want me calling me on my shit, but as the ADMIN has told you before, everyone has the right to respond to what you have posted. You don't like that, well GROW UP, it is YOUR PROBLEM not mine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 01:47AM by MJ.

There are many things we are not-- professionals being one of them. I think people coming to a peer group know that. They are on an internet site which is pretty clear is a public forum, not "ask an expert."

No one controls the vertical, no one controls the horizontal. No one controls the definition of recovery or its connotations. It may mean different things to different people, which is ok. Susan/IS provides a minimal amount of moderation to keep things civil, but other than that, it's free expression. For some people, it's the first free expression they've ever had about life as a Mormon. For others, it's the first time they've interacted with real, live apostates who (surprise) are doing well! Many people benefit from telling their story because they can't tell it anywhere else.

Professionals would agree this kind of free expression, getting feelings out is helpful. It's just common sense to recognize that you don't have to be a professional to be a good listener. We all need to be heard.

There are no experts at Recovering from Mormonism. There's no one who is able to say "This is helping recovery--that over there is not." We are just a group of disparate individuals who have the one thing in common: we are recovered or are in recovery.

RfM is a valuable support for cult recovery -- one of several aids available. People recovering from cigarette addiction have choices. They can go cold turkey, join a group, chew gum, use Nicorette, etc. Likewise RfM is one form of support among many. Helpful for some, not for others. It does not replace professional help and posters here are quick to recommend professional help when individuals show signs of serious mental problems where they may be a danger to themselves.

People can get hurt when they post here just like they can get hurt if they make friends or fall in love. There is risk of misunderstanding inherent in every form of communication. I like to think that those who become part of our community are practicing being the new non-Mormon "me." Seeing what works, what feels write in a safe place with an anonymous handle, before formally announcing a break from the church and having to explain to friends and family what happened to their faith.

People who leave Mormonism frequently lose every friend they thought they had. Isn't it wonderful they can come here and find others who were also thrown away? Isn't it great they can find out it isn't just them, but happens to almost everyone? Maybe that isn't "professional help" but it sure feels good to have someone who understands what you are going through.

Anagrammy

Groups can a have a varying degree of openness, longevity, specificity, and professional or lay facilitation. The most open group with lay facilitation is a self-help group.

Advantages of self-help groups include participation by a lot of people and social support. Disadvantages include less privacy and, depending on the group at any particular time, emotional safety. Self-help groups sometimes promote bad or outdated information. Group members sometimes feel a lot of pressure to conform to points of view they don't agree with or are unhelpful.

RfM, as a self-help group (whether or not you want to include the word "Recovery"), includes the advantages and disadvantages I mentioned. Often the advice is good, sometimes it is incredibly good, and sometimes it is bad. Most of the bad advice I've seen is of the "make-a-rash-irreversible-life-decision-while-you-are-really-upset" type.

*My* advice is consider what is said here and think it over when you are in a calm state. If it is a major issue, find someone you trust who has good judgment and talk it over. If you are suicidal, suffer from serious depression, or suffer from some other serious problem, see a professional. This forum is not the right venue for dealing with it except for social support.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 02:41AM by robertb.

My point exactly

Many Mormons are very used to running to the Bishop and having the bishop solve the problems and disputes. These people may well use a designated leader of the group the same way. Without having a designated leader, RfM may well help people to stand on their own two feet and resolve disputes without relying on an authority figure to step in.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many Mormons are very used to running to the
> Bishop and having the bishop solve the problems
> and disputes. These people may well use a
> designated leader of the group the same way.
> Without having a designated leader, RfM may well
> help people to stand on their own two feet and
> resolve disputes without relying on an authority
> figure to step in.

Self-reliance is another possible advantage. I hadn't thought of that. Posters here have posted on the advantages of growing a thicker skin and learning to defend themselves.

On the flip side, depending on group dynamics, some group members can be quickly scapegoated and abused when there isn't a structure or leadership to prevent it.

That is why a variety of groups should be brought under the "recovery" banner.

For someone needing and wanting to learn self-reliance, this might be the perfect place for them.

For someone that needs to be carefully guided, single one on one consoling may be a better fit.

A group between the two may be the best next step from one on one to no guidance.

I am also not saying that a particular group will be the right fit for a person throughout their recovery, but what I am saying is that it is OK for a group to not cater to everyone. It is OK for a recovery group to cater to an aspect of recovery and let other groups cater to other aspects. It simply may not be possible to have a group that can both closely guide a person and at the same time let others be self reliant.

I agree with your comments on variety. I'm not sure what it is you mean by '"recovery" banner.' There is a Recovery Model of mental health that has come out of work with AA that has some specific approaches and underlying principles. Are you referring to some aspects of that model?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_model

Indeed I see a lot that includes RfM

"consumer/survivor models tend to put more emphasis on peer support, empowerment and real-world personal experience." Seems to fit RfM to a tee, survivor model with an emphasis on peer support, empowerment and real world personal experience.

Participation by a lot of people is a plus, but on the other hand, it can be a negative as well, because people can feel overlooked/left out. I know I miss a lot of things on here because there are just so many posts, I can't possibly read them all.

Sometimes posters have to be more vocal about their needs. And that can be hard to do when someone is in a fragile state.

One plus about this board is that we are a tight knit group. That can be a minus however when new posters come on board.

I've seen mixed results with new posters just depending on the subject/other posters/first post dynamic, etc.

Then a group model may not be right for them.

That is not a criticism of the group model that is an acknowledgment that there is NO one size fits all method of recovery.

For someone to say that RfM should cater to everyone and fit everyone's needs would be unrealistic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 02:55AM by MJ.

A regular poster e-mailed me about this subject, obviously with some concerns, and one element of Mormonism that is extremely difficult to address is the narcissistic one, a hangover from the extreme shame-based upbringing we receive growing up in the culture (and trust me, as a "Nevermo," that one is multi-generational). That manifests itself in a variety of ways, and the LDS doctrine of "the one true church" and patriarchal control are elements of it. And truthfully, one element of narcissism is a strong desire to remake another into one's notion of what that ought to be... Or vilify them if they fail to live up to expectations...

The contrast is offered by simple factual presentations and mirroring that invite growth and change (and yes, there's a manipulative element to that).

There are, however, those whose denial mechanisms are so extreme they don't possess the perceptual clarity for these forces to operate. Their defenses are often anger, attacking others (while accusing those others of attacking them), and a "pseudo caring" that is simply a form of enabling...

I've been a faithful member of a number of 12-Step Programs for over 30 years now, and an important element is the "inventory process." This means an objective evaluation of one's strengths and weaknesses, and making one's self "open for change and growth," and I believe it's a very powerful process.

Sadly, some people simply can't or won't grow up... Does this mean abandoning all that Mormonism gave us? Of course not! There are some solid values many still respect and want to hold on to; the intolerance, cookie cutter lifestyles, and harsh judgments of others are among those that people may want to let go of... Rightfully, IMHO...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2011 01:47AM by SL Cabbie.

Who can figure out what advice would be better for them and their situation.

I think that most people searching for advice like having a diversity of perspectives in order to pick and choose what will work for them.

And the advice given to children has been mostly very generically supportive.

And the serious problems usually get at least one poster who says that professional therapy should be considered.

I considder this place a Recovery group with a mix of entertainment and plenty of personal opinion. I don't really see this place as an advice forum because I tend to take advice from verafiable pros or personal friends and co-workers, uness I find an opinion I find to be reasonable and vakuable.

They ain't walked the walk, so do not know what it is like.

We do. We are, in that respect, the experts. :o))

Good call, matt! Anything that we, the experts, can all agree on would probably be good advice - if we could all agree on anything....

"Take what you like and leave the rest"

It means that there is a lot of things said, some may work for you but not others. Some works for the person saying it, but not for you. There are many ways to approach a problem, some ways work for some people and not others, while another way works for a different set of people. To claim that only what we agree on is good would be to undercut that reality. Best to let the reader decide what would work for them.

I agree with you, MJ, and matt, that most people leaving Mormonism could probably benefit more from a group of peers like this, who have been through the same thing, than from a professional. Unless, of course, there are other issues which require professional one-on-one help. I was just joking about the fact that we seem to have as many different opinions, on everything, as there are people on this board. Which is really one of our strengths.

There are some here that seem to think there should be one way of doing things or that this group should be everything to everyone, or that this group should conform to their idea of what the board should be.

I think Eric has done something amazing in giving us a giant sand box with as few rules as possible. We, as a collective of very different people push, tug, wrassle, debate and scavenge where and what we feel important, not what some authority tells us. I honestly feel we get into far more issues with a wider variety than ever could be hoped for with a authority governing the groups direction.

When we feel someone has issues or is in too fragile a state we do tell them they need to get one on one IRL(InRealLife) help and if they want we help them find it. The board serves a VERY broad range of people with different backgrounds and on different parts of the path. We feel this is one of the valuable things the board offers and why we do not split the board into different categories or levels. Everyone has something to contribute and something to learn. When a board is split up people tend to stay in a specific area/comfort zone and miss out on other things. So we put everyone together in one big room and do our best to keep someone from getting kicked in a corner. But people do have to learn to handle dispute, discussion, conflict - that is what grown up people in the real world do. Many have not learned that valuable life skill. That being said, there is no reason to go out of your way to be an asshole.

To me the word "group" indicates something more cohesive than a widesprea loose association of unknown posters.

Official qualified professionals aren't a requirment for self help efforts. Self help indicates that it's up to the participants to use available ideas and support to work toward their own personal recovery goals.

Those in the depths of emotional turmoil who feel unable to function and decide on a course of action need to seek good professional guidance. No one should depend only on internet strangers for help and that includes so-called experts. Now that we're no longer mormons, we need to learn to sort through varying ideas and decide what's valid for our situations. It isn't a good idea to depend on "professional experts" since their recommendations can vary and conflict being very poor, fair, good, or outstanding