Last night my boyfriend has very sad, distant, and thinking about his mission as we were talking (I'm a nevermo with no religious affiliation). He wants to wait for me, but I've basically told him I can't. I knew why he was sad so we addressed it and I told him he didn't HAVE to go if he didn't want to and that no one was making him, just because I felt like he should hear that for the first time... ever. And he kept saying "yes I do" and then "you don't know what I know." Yeahhhh... That was one of the things I thought about later on and was all, WTF. So then we got to a good place with his mission topic and his mom texted him "Missionaries are over. Ivy welcome to come! (:" and to that I said to him...

ME: I feel like you deserve to know that I respect your beliefs, but they're not for me...
He doesn't talk for a bit.
ME: What are you thinking?
HIM: I don't know what to say. I just wish you knew what I knew.
ME: Don't. That's not fair. I'm happy. Everyone is different and that's what makes us all beautiful. We can't all be the same."
HIM: (He starts crying at this point) This Gospel...
ME: It's okay. Stop... It's okay. I know what it's all about.
HIM: And you don't believe it? (This visibly hurts him, but I'm thinking DUHHH. If I did wouldn't I be Mormon already?)
ME: ...I believe it for you. But not for me. I know you feel like you have a duty to convert me, but you don't. I. am. happy. I love what I believe.
HIM: (Doesn't really say much but looks devastated.)
ME: Don't feel sad for me. That's the biggest insult.

Basically I just comforted and held him for this whole conversation, trying to explain to him that religion is everyone's own personal thing they have to figure out on their own time. We ended on a good note and later we talked more over the phone. He told me he was hurt and I told him I was insulted because it felt like he was trying to change me. And he insisted that he wasn't trying to change me, he "wanted to offer the most valuable thing in his life to the person he valued most" and I buy that. It makes sense, really. You want to share the things that make you happy with the people you love. So bottom line is he suggested and really wants us to get all cards on the table about what the other believes. He wants me to know what he believes (I know quite enough after bumming around here) and he wants to know what I believe. I agreed as long as we could both promise we wouldn't go into it with the slightest hope that the other would convert. And I'm actually super excited for this conversation... I've got some crazy good points up my sleeve. And although I was offended at first... I could only be sympathetic in the end. Be sympathetic to someone who's basically been engulfed in this life style their entire life without any other persons opinion. It was awful seeing him like that. In that conversation, he was a completely different person, and one that I didn't know at all but could only feel love and sympathy for... We're both SO happy it's off our chests though.

Thanks for the encouragement guys!

he thought he could get you to convert and resorted to crying -- about how much he loves the gospel, or something like that, I'm not sure what.
Sounds to me like it's time to move on.You are not on the same page. You are not a match.

Well, Ivy, it sounds like you have your shit figured out. Your boyfriend sounds like a typical, brainwashed, confused mormon (sorry if that sounded rude) but it's just funny how I was basically the same way your boyfriend was a few months before I was supposed to go on my mission. It's only been a few months, but I've finally started realizing that staying home was one of the best decisions I've made for myself. It's incredible.

Anyway, I think you're handling the situation really well, and I hope that laying all the cards on the table will open up your boyfriends' eyes a little bit to what he really thinks he "knows". You sound like a smart girl, keep us posted on how the conversation goes!

Agreed. He keeps mentioning "if you knew what I knew" and how he feels an obligation to serve a mission. I know when I was preparing to serve a mission, I felt an extreme obligation to as well. And it's not a happy obligation either. Basically they've had it drilled thick into their skulls that they pretty much HAVE to serve a mission.

Of course, the church doesn't word it that way, but that's what it comes down to. They say "every young man who is worthy should serve a mission". Only people who serve missions get exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Which is also implying those who don't are 'cursed' with not going there.

There's also the scripture about "how great shall be thy joy if you do missionary work" or whatever. With a different viewpoint, it's saying you won't find extreme happiness without serving a mission.

Anyway, I hope you can talk some sense into him. Also, if he goes, let him know you will be there for him if he decides to leave early.

… to dump your inferior (non-Mormon) beliefs for his superior (Mormon) ones. As a born-in-the-church Mormon, he just can’t help himself for feeling that way. “The Church” comes before EVERYTHING else.

You sound kind and caring, “Ivy.” (Your B.F. doesn't even realize how thoughtful you are being by saying nothing disparaging about Mormonism!)

Breaking up is never easy, but it sounds like you realize why it is necessary. Time to move on. You deserve a man who shares your major beliefs, whatever they might be!

I had this with my Mo boyfriend in high school (what he said was nearly verbatim what you wrote above... it's disturbing), and then we had the "cards on the table" talk (again, using the same phrase to discuss it).

You are almost certainly walking into a horrible trap - he's going to try to cut down your beliefs. That is what his religion teaches him to do. Your crazy good points will do nothing. He will dismiss it as coming from "anti-Mormon" sources. He wants you to know what HE believes. Nothing more.

If you do go through with this talk, make a firm statement before you start that at any point, if he starts witnessing to you or trying to push his as "the truth" or the only true faith, the conversation is over.

I am positive he is a really great guy, but he's putting his religion before you. At your age, not making your partner the primary objective in your long-term goals is probably the most healthy thing, but when it comes to religion this is how it will always be with him. His religion will always come before any relationship he gets into until he figures out it's all a fraud, which might never happen.

Good for you for being strong and firm with your position. It's important to realize that he won't change. He obviously wants you to be the one to change.

Make sure you stay strong and don't be afraid to ask for support or help.

I really wish I could have had someone like you speak some reason to me when I was 19. For a typical mormon, it seems every person around you is encouraging you to go, and that it is a GREAT decision. Missions are horrible. Due to visa issues, I saw what missions were like both state-side english speaking and south-america spanish speaking. Trust me, they are horrible no matter where you go. I had a full-tuition scholarship before I left. I was doing just fine academically. Then, on the mission, we actually had a rule limiting the books we could read. There were only about 5-6 church approved books that we were permitted to read in addition to the scriptures plus church magazines. They simply starve you intellectually on top of controlling the information you receive. The mission president has absolute control over who you are with and your area. Your 'companion' rats you out to the mission president over the most trivial of rules broken. You feel guilty 24/7. I could go on and on. Try to get your BF accurate information on what goes on in the mission field. Maybe get ahold of the 'white bible'. At least then, his decision will be some-what informed. He'll still most likely feel like he has no choice in going anyway.

Someday he'll figure out what he gave up when he let you go, but not, unfortunately in enough time to help you. I'm sorry.

I don't think he was crying to get me to convert. From what I understand showing any non-masculine emotion for Mormon men is just the weakest thing ever, so I can only imagine how shitty he felt when he was crying and I wasn't, trying to explain that not everyone in the world can be the same. We both know we're not getting married and living happily ever after. I went into this relationship knowing that, he didn't, and that's why having that conversation was so hard for him. The point is that as not only someone I love and my best friend, I want to be in this relationship. We have fun together and make each other happy. We ARE YOUNG. We're only almost 18, but his religion has him thinking about our future much farther out that I have been. Both of us have expressed that the last thing we want to do is break up right now and that we I want to enjoy as much time as we can together until we inevitably go our separate ways. In a way I don't want him to be moved by what I have to say. I don't want to be the one that 'led him astray' and I think he should figure his religion out by himself, not with my help.

I don't blame him for offering his religion to me. It's obviously the most important thing in his life that makes him happy, and we naturally want to share the things that make us happy with the people we love. I think that's why I'm not so offended. Not only that, but like I said, when he even MUTTERED the words "this gospel..." and "I wish you knew..."-- this was a person I did not know in any way, shape or form. It honestly freaked me out. When I heard 'the gospel' I felt like I was going to throw up because it felt like a Joseph Smith movie I had watched on the flippin' BYU channel one day when I was bored beyond imagine. There was this boy and girl, the boy was on team Joseph and she thought it was bull pucky and they wanted to get married, but he couldn't because of his devotion to the church. I felt like it was the church talking to me, not him (which it obviously was).

That'd shed a lot of light on the crying. It is considered normal for Mormon men to cry when bearing their testimony of the gospel because it demonstates sincerity. You will see the crying in testimony meeting and after a while you are either a sucker for the emontional manipulation or easily annoyed by it. Mormon men do cry.

when they're expressing "the truthfulness of the gospel."

They don't see it as being manipulative, but on some level, they are hoping this show of emotion will entice others to join or be stonger mormon advocates. Although this isn't the only reason for the tears, it does almost always play a part.

Men have the ability to cry, but they generally don't.

In this way, some use it as a manipulation tool to get what they want.

They can turn it on and off like a faucet.

ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY mormon men. ESPECIALLY.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 01:51PM by maria.

Mormonism uses the word "knowing" for "believing". Nobody knows the first thing about the things his religion has convinced him he knows. Feelings do not constitute knowing. If you can convince him of that after a lifetime of indoctrination my hats off to you. Best wishes.

but I spend a lot of time with teenagers and young adults and this is not the voice of a 19 year old.

I feel like RfM has been attacked by letters to the Penthouse Forum.

Doesn't not make them fun to read.

But all these people passing themselves off as teenagers.

I'm just not buying it.

This letter was not written by any 19 year old I know.

Not saying a 19 year old could have written it.

Just sayin' I never met Thomas Pynchon or James Joyce at that age.

And there's been a spate of them lately posting stuff like they're professional writers.

Again, as a middle school teacher, I can say that poignant, grammatically correct writing does not mean that the individual is lying about their age.

I went to high school in close proximity to an ivy league university. Lots of the university's professors sent their kids to my public high school. There was no shortage of quality writing among my fellow students.

I also once had a British girl as a roommate. She was not considered to be college-track in England, but she had superior writing skills.

Look at the level of intelligance of the people on this foum. the other teens may not feel they are able to post.

First of all I would like to say that you sound like a very kind, compassionate, and smart person. You seem very impressive. A good point was made by kestrafinn that these talks can be hard to have because he is undoubtedly sure to have the term "anti-mormon" branded in his mind. I believe you can get past this though. While I recommend you check out http://www.mormonthink.com/ and the thinking of joining mormonism? link on this homepage http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm, even just watching the pbs show the mormons http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/. It is VITAL to this conversation that you are careful which sources you use.

You have to use the churches own sources. Use sources like Richard Bushman's "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling." Try to get a copy of that. He's a practicing mormon historian and he talks about a lot of the problems your boyfriend wouldn't be aware of. Such as Joseph Smith practiced polygamy/polyandy, JS translated the book of mormon with his head in a hat. JS drank. The temple endowment comes from the masons. These are all things written by a believing mormon - and you can buy it at BYU.

Hopefully then he'll trust your sources and you can start throwing more stuff at him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 11:17PM by evolution.

Please explain to me what on earth would I benefit from lying about my age in this kind of situation? I'd love to skype it up with you right now to prove you wrong because honestly, this is very comical to me. I don't even know what the heck a Penthouse Form is! I had to Google it... Just so happens writing is my passion, pal, and I'm the copy editor of the yearbook at my high school. Believe whatcha will.!

Actually that was an extremely high compliment to me, so I guess I should be thanking you. ;)

P.S. I'm not 19, I'm 17 and a half. So... even funnier perhaps? Haha.

I agree it's unbelievable. For one thing--It's the language:

"pal, flippin' and bull-pucky" is not the lingo of today's youth. It's from the 70's.

ALso, notice the absence of tech talk, no texting this or that, no evidence of hostility toward parents, no talk about a peer group. No talk of prom/graduation/dances/football games or any of the other super important activities that consume the thoughts of teenagers.

Most significantly, no texting abbreviations. Today's teens do not say "whatcha will" . They say "whatever." If they DID say "what you will" it would truncate more likely be "whatu" not "whatcha."

Anagrammy spots a time traveler...... or someone enjoying a little FAIR game?

Sorry, but not true - there are several teens that I have tutored in French who have fantastic language skills. There is a strong anti-abbreviation trend among the more mature teenagers. They recognize it makes them less intelligent sounding. Not all kids are lazy regarding their online communication.

Ivy sounds like a senior in high school - particularly with the "I just want us to be good friends" illusion (which is sweet, but incredibly naive) about this upcoming "faith sharing" meeting with her boyfriend, which many of the adults recognize from experience will be nothing of the sort.

Hell, she sounds a lot like I did at her age.

There are many more posters on this board who I question are over age 20, due to their horrible spelling and use of abbreviations.

How does prom and football games tie into my situation? Why is it so impossible to believe that I'm just, I don't know, DIFFERENT than other teenagers? If you want I can explain that aspect of my life, but it's a little irrelevant in the advice and support I'm asking for here, don't you think?

And I've got news for you, 'flippin' is back in style in my generation.

WHY would I waste time lying about this? What do I gain here? Funny. Thanks for the support, you two. Sorry I've got more than half a brain compared to the 'nineteen year-olds' you've met. If they're that bad I'd hate to see what the seventeen year-olds you've dealt with were like.

I don't know why you are getting so much grief. I was writing at a college level at age 15. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a 17 year old can write well.

My personal opinion is that people are getting a little paranoid about this. I definitely think ivy is legit. You guys are looking for the wrong indications of age. As someone who is probably the closest to her age I believe you should be looking at more subtle things such as smiley faces :) frowney faces :( and three periods in a row ... also paranthesis ( ). These are very common in text messages, facebook, or other social networking. I will be told that this is common in every age but it is especially common in my generation.

These can all be found in ivy's posts spanning back to her first.

When I was tested for my reading and writing capability in the seventh grade they were both in the the college level as well. James Joyce is not the only one who can write; though he does write particularly well and his books are rather interesting.

Oh and ivy is right about "flippin," it is back - hopefully not to stay though :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2010 12:30AM by evolution.

"flippin" never went out of style in all areas. Nor were they popular in all areas. I was in high school 1989-1993. I've heard it from my friends quite often when they're trying not to swear - especially in front of the 'rents (aka parents).

(the more modern phrases in my group are "farking" or "frakking" depending on their level of geekery).

Just please, please be careful. Because those tears of his regarding faith are ones he's been trained - through social conditioning - to express regarding his faith.

It's good you have the perspective that this is high school only, and hey, life will probably take you far away in different directions afterward. But yes, just be careful - and recognize that his faith is so important to him that he will continue to try to press you on it, even when it's subtle. It's simply his nature to do so as a Mormon.

He wants a Mormon girl. Time to move on. You are so young, please don't waste one more minute on this fool who thinks you're not good enough because you're not Mormon.

Chances are he will regret his decision in 10 years and will curse the church for stealing his youth.

Good luck. Hopefully you can plant some seeds of doubt.

Thank you Evolution. I'd never seen Mormonthink before and it looks intriguing all things considered! I'm just afraid to push that at him. I didn't know the person who was talking about knowing and the gospel, it was like a nightmare I'd had! I'm kind thinking this conversation we have will (hopefully) just be strictly about what he believes and what I believe, without debate. I hope. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

And thanks, too goldenrule. I don't feel like my time with him is wasted though, so I'm going to feel things out... I just really care about him! Maybe I should be the bigger person and do him a favor by breaking up with him before the mission and college so he has time to get over me. He obviously wants to go to BYU and I was to stay in-state, on top of it, and that kind of long distance in college would just be awful. But for right now both of us want to enjoy the rest of our senior year together... We'll see...

"If only you knew what I know" is a classic line used to manipulate your natural curiosity. My goodness! What could they know? Maybe if I hang out with them and go to their church (just a little), I'll get to find out...

Another classic line used on me was when I was in the Bishops office early in our discussions about the discoveries that I was making- the Bp says to me--I have my own weaknesses that I struggle with, but you won't get to know about them until you are the Bishop.

And at the end of the day, manipulation ploy or no, he clearly does not like you enough to accept you as you are.

You have a lot of years before you think about spending your life with someone.

Most LDS people prefer to marry LDS people.It's part of their traditional religious culture. It works best that way when people are on the same page. The married Catholics I know married Catholics also.

I know kids your age. Ya, they write in full intelligent sentences also! :-)

There's inevitably going to be pain enough on both sides. I'm not saying don't share what you've learned here. Factual knowledge is precious too. But you are going to be challenging a faith that he has based his whole life (and afterlife), the core of his being as it were. Don't be confrontational, even if he get's angry and says that you have been sucked in by "anti- Mormon lies". Just be rational and reasonable and sure of your facts. I'm glad you realize that this relationship will not go much further, the best you can hope for is to plant some seeds in his mind. And as the saying goes, "the truth will set you free--But first it will piss you off". Make sure he realizes that you are doing this out of friendship, just as I'm sure he is doing this for the same reason. You've taken on a difficult task, I don't envy you for it. I just hope that you both can take away something beneficial from this relationship.
Good Luck.

Read the thread about 'what was the first straw'

the fact is, that even if you hit him with some killer facts, that showed the church is a lie, it may put a chink in his armour.... but it's unlikely to turn him to a ex-mo straight away (maybe 2, 3 or even 10 years down the line).

At the moment he is fully 'with the program' - he's got a proud mormon mommy backing him up (and, no doubt, a ward full of proud members, too) that he's going on a mission. Even the most reluctant teen gets a psychological 'spiritual rush' from receiving his mission call.
even the kids with doubts who have been railroaded into a mission, start to take the religion a bit more seriously when they are facing a long, long stint as a missionary.

now is not the time to try and change him.... in fact IMO, it's the worst time to try.

you are so, so young.... time to move on and have a real life away from this nasty cult.

I think everyone is a little confused in the fact that you seem to think we're going to have a sit down that includes me explaining why I think Mormonism is a hoax? I can't do that to him. Like Hervey Willets said, it's the most precious thing he has. The point of the conversation is for us is for him to explain what he believes, and for me to explain what I believe. I don't want it to be a debate throw down. That would hurt both of us, and both of us are very careful not to do that. When I say I have 'crazy good points,' I mean, I have crazy good points why we'll never be the same. For example. I love R rated movies, tea, coffee, a drink every now and then, will always drop the F bomb in a moment of passion, don't want to give 10% of my money away, make my mom sit outside on my wedding day... need I say more? That's enough.

I know I'm not marrying the guy and I think it's pretty obvious I'm not thinking too long term here. Regardless of that we're young, I have an immense amount of love for him and I'm happy with him. I want to enjoy our senior year together, go to PROM ( ;) ) with him and enjoy our last summer together! This isn't an easy situation and if I didn't love him both as my boyfriend and my best friend, we probably would have broken up a long time ago. And who knows, this conversation could be the end of it for both of us. But I feel like it's one we should have all the same.

You sound like you have your head on straight, know what you want, and are respectful of your young man's rights to his beliefs. Everybody , in my observation, thinks someone else's believes are a hoax, or stupid, or strange, etc. It's how the outsider sees it usually.

He is apparently, a true believer, just as I was at one time. It was the most precious thing I knew at that time, also. I understand that.

Enjoy your time together, he knows where you stand and I don't see any reason to continue enjoying each others company as you stated, for your senior year, prom, and summer.

This is a valuable experience for you. You learned how religious believes are precious and very important to some people and they feel very strongly about it.

I applaud your respectful attitude.

his faith with you and have you feel the same. And that desire is causing stress in the relationship. The relationship has reached a crisis because you don't agree with HIM, and aren't willing to wait for him while he goes on a mission, not because he doesn't agree with YOU . . . am I right? You're not trying to convince HIM to leave the church, right? It's one-way tolerance.

His kind of sharing isn't sharing. That's him wanting to impose his beliefs on you.

You wrote: "And he insisted that he wasn't trying to change me, he "wanted to offer the most valuable thing in his life to the person he valued most" and I buy that."

I don't buy that. He obviously wants to change you. I'm sure he cares deeply about you, and he knows you can't be together for much longer if you don't convert. He OFFERED to take you along to see the missionaries and when you said "no thanks", that bothered him. It kind of like if someone offered to let you try their food at the restaurant . . . it's OKAY to say "no thanks", and if someone gets offended by that, then THEY have a problem, not you. "OFFERING" a political opinion or religious testimony or offering to change another person is MUCH more personal than offering a taste of food. And it's perfectly okay to say "no thanks".

"It makes sense, really. You want to share the things that make you happy with the people you love. So bottom line is he suggested and really wants us to get all cards on the table about what the other believes. He wants me to know what he believes (I know quite enough after bumming around here) and he wants to know what I believe. I agreed as long as we could both promise we wouldn't go into it with the slightest hope that the other would convert."

Sure, you want to share important things with the people you love. But you should also respect the other person as a separate being who has their own feelings, beliefs, and opinions. And THAT is perhaps one of the WORST aspects of Mormonism, crazy doctrine aside. Mormons try to cram everyone into the same mold of beliefs and behaviors instead of celebrating individuality and autonomy.

Hmmm. It sounds like you are a strong person, and you were pretty direct with him in your previous conversation, so I'm sure you will be able to say what needs to be said. Just keep in mind that some people won't think you know enough about something until you agree with them. But you can set a limit when you've had enough.

Just keep asking yourself if he has the same respect for YOUR individuality and beliefs that you have for HIS.

I feel for you Ivy. I too dated a mormon when I was a teenager. I ended up marrying him years later but not after our relationship had been put through the grinder. To this day it's still hard sometimes, especially when the in-laws are all still mormon.

I remember well the hold that mormonism seems to have over its younger members. They've been trained to do things a specific way their whole lives. When someone they respect and admire shows them that things can be different, it doesn't always go so well.

My MIL used to pull that kind of stuff too. "Oh we're feeding the missionaries on Sunday. Why don't you invite Olive?" It was always this nice, sickly sweet attitude towards me until I made it absolutely clear- I'd taken the discussions, I'd attended the meetings, etc. etc. and I DID NOT WANT ANY PART OF IT. Now our relationship is always borderline hostile. I'm pretty sure the only reason is that if she did say something she wouldn't be seeing her oldest son and only grandchild. One of the biggest things that bothers me is how so many mormons are nice to you if they think you're a standup person but if you say that their religion is not for you then it's the cold shoulder.

Tread carefully especially into this new area of resolving differences. It's good that at your age you're not thinking of longer term commitments.