Check out my thread here:

Joining a religion you don't believe in
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,241709,241709#msg-241709

While I got a few decent responses (thanks Raptor Jesus, sonoma, Tim), most of what I got was along the lines of, "Wait, you're marrying someone from where? Holy shit, are you crazy? There's no way in hell that could ever work out! I bet you're just making it all up to get attention, anyway."
First of all, that wasn't the point of my post, and I wasn't asking for relationship advice. I was talking about religion, specifically whether it's a good idea to join a religion just to meet the legal requirements to get married.
Secondly, when someone mentions that they are getting married, the polite response is, "Congratulations!" I don't care what your views on marriage are, it's still bad manners to send a list of the reasons why marriage sucks in response to a wedding announcement.
Thirdly, what's with the knee-jerk reaction against anything to do with Muslims (even though he's not) and the Middle East (even though Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East)? If you think that Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia all have the same culture, forgive me if I don't want to hear how bad you think that "culture" is.
All I expect from this board is to be able to have a civil conversation without all the negativity about my choice of marriage partner. I'm shocked that people can be offended just because I mentioned who I'm getting married to - how does that hurt you in any way? Is this starting to sound familiar? I was talking to my lesbian friend about the similarities in our situations - we are both in committed relationships, but we both have legal obstacles that we have to overcome in order to get married, and both have society looking down on us for our choice in marriage partners.
To anyone who's offended that I'm getting married to an Afghan guy, I have only two words for you: Fuck off.
To the rest of you, please, let's try to be a little more accepting of people who might be different from us. We're all human beings doing the best we can, why don't we help each other instead of tearing each other down?

The anti Muslim sentiment bothers me too as do people acting like they have all the answers when they don't know you or all the details, let alone the people involved. Urging caution is one thing but sounding gloom and doom is another.

This is what really confuses me, since we're all on an ex-Mormon recovery board. Obviously we don't like the Mormon religion, but does that mean we should hate ex-Mormons? Has anyone ever researched the parallels between Islam and Mormonism? The religions are much closer than they have any right to be (Joseph Smith loved to plagiarize). Can't people on here see that a person born Muslim who sees the problems with his religion and is trying to get out - is EXACTLY LIKE US?

I disliked the anti-Muslim and even anti-foreigner stance taken by some here. I have considerable experience of:

a) being a foreigner (I'm a Brit living in France since 1983)

and

b) Muslims (I live in a very mixed town and approximately HALF of the children at my daughter's school are Muslim).

I have 2 things to say:

1) Just because a person's home country is in a mess, it doesn't mean that they are in a mess too...

2) MOST muslims are NOT fanatics, but simply "cultural muslims" - it's what they grew up in. As education improves, that culture becomes more moderate and sensible. I am an atheist of long standing, but I have many Muslim friends and neighbours with whom I get on very well.

I wish you all the best in your upcoming marriage.

Tom

Link to continuation of the thread, if anyone really wants to read all that shit:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,277327,277327#msg-277327

We are all trying to undo damage done to us by a cult. What kind of response did you think you would get from this particular crowd?

"Sure, it doesn't matter what religion you join."

"Sure, it doesn't matter if you join a religion you don't believe in."

We think it matters or we wouldn't be here. We give advice about untattering your life and you ask a question that to us sounds like, "I'd like to join a cult because it won't really mess me up because I don't believe and neither does he."

You are a regular poster here --are you kidding me? Let me just ask you if you think being shunned and discriminated against, belittled, bossed, diminished, insulted ...won't hurt if you don't believe Mohammed was a prophet? Hell no, it will hurt and I'm assuming his family is Muslim, so you will be bearing a child that they will adore being raised by a heathen, which they hate.

Furthermore, sexismyreligion, we care about you. I remember how sweet it was when you wanted to change your moniker to loveismyreligion.

My honest opinion is that you are projecting anger onto us, your friends on "this board" because becoming a victim (again) feels comfortable. It's how you felt in Mormonism. We do tend to revert to the familiar in times of stress.

NOw, as always, you can throw that comment completely out and not even consider it as a possibility. The important thing is the decision you are making and what it's requiring of you: to pretend to be something you are not.

Oh, hell no you are not going to see one person on this board tell you we think that's ok. But if you want someone to agree with you, ask the Mormons. I don't have to tell you what a bunch of phonies they are. If you agree to join their cult, they don't care if you believe or not. I'm sure Muslims are the same way.

Of course we will always be here for you when the clerics see pictures of you not wearing a veil, or God forbid, on the beach in a bikini. FATWA alert!

Anagrammy

Anagrammy, I'm sure you mean well, but you tend to assume too much. I don't picture myself as a victim. I just got a response from this board that wasn't what I expected, and I explained in my OP what I don't like about the comments I got. I don't like how I tried to have a conversation about religion which was derailed by people getting personally offended at my choice to marry a former Muslim.
I don't understand what this comment is supposed to mean: "Of course we will always be here for you when the clerics see pictures of you not wearing a veil, or God forbid, on the beach in a bikini. FATWA alert!" You mean the clerics in Afghanistan will be offended if they see a picture of me without a veil - not by the fact that I've served in the US military, fighting in Afghanistan? Why would I care what they think? I'll be safely here in the US. They'd probably kill any American they can get their hands on, why would they bother issuing a personal fatwa against me? And, in that case, what is anyone on this board going to do for me, other than say "I told you so?"

I just want to clarify one thing, if you don't mind. Anagrammy, you said, "I remember how sweet it was when you wanted to change your moniker to loveismyreligion." That's not quite what happened...
I originally chose the name loveismyreligion because, honestly, I don't believe in any organized religion. The only thing I really believe in, in a spiritual sense, is love. Specifically, I believe in the real, raw, concrete love I share with my daughter and the man I am marrying. However, when I started using the moniker "loveismyreligion", I got a lot of that "oh how sweet - it really would be nice if we all loved each other" bullshit, which is absolutely not what I meant. I think loving everyone cheapens the idea of love. There are only two people in the world that I love absolutely, completely, with my whole heart. There are many other people that I care about, but it's not the same depth of love. Instead of trying to explain my moniker over and over, I changed it to the (somehow less controversial) sexismyreligion.

Cheryl, and Anagrammy, I'm sorry but I fail to see how you are helping simply by assuming you know better than I do what is best for my life. How do you know I will be "shunned and discriminated against, belittled, bossed, diminished, insulted", just because that is the image you have in your mind of how people in that area of the world treat women? What if you are wrong, and my husband continues to be the person I know him to be? Does it make you feel better to be pessimistic without cause?

Sorry, no offense, I can see how that comment could sound sarcastic...I just really don't feel comfortable posting any more personal details after the response I got to what I've given so far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 04:38AM by sexismyreligion.

"To anyone who's offended that I'm getting married to an Afghan guy, I have only two words for you: Fuck off."

Maybe you could start by learning the correct demonym for people from Afghanistan, viz., Afghani. An Afghan is a rug.

An Afghan is a rug, when used as a noun. I believe the term "Afghan" as an adjective is accurate, as in "an Afghan citizen", or "an Afghan guy".

Afghan (adjective) 5. of Afghanistan or its people or language.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 02:33AM by sexismyreligion.

So he is a muslim by default in his country, but doesn't believe in it nor practices islam? Sounds like my Moroccan-born friend Ahmed in Madrid. Both his sisters have married Spaniards. Traditional Arabic weddings, but not really islamic. His brother married a black Brazilian who is very catholic, and he only walks to church on special occasions, like most Spaniards. Ahmed has lived in Madrid since he was fifteen and has never had a muslim girlfriend, has a keen interest in all religions (we even visited Hare Krishna feasts together) and half of his friends are gay. Yet lots of girls who meet him think "help! a muslim! a radical! he will want me to dress up like an Egyptian mummy!"

If your fiancé is like Ahmed, I'm sure he will fit in well in any part of the western world. But why do you ask? Do you really want any advice? In the earlier threads you got offended so easily. Though I admit there were some crazy comments on those threads.

No, I'm definitely not asking for advice. I just don't like the fact that I'm getting all this bad advice without having ever asked for it. In a way, this is part of my own recovery process - I'm not going to listen to advice from people who don't know anything about me, just so they can feel comfortable in their distorted preconceptions of the world. If they can accept me for who I am, then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, it's not worth my time.
Yes, he is probably fairly similar to your friend Ahmed as far as religious beliefs, and I'm sure there won't be any problems that way. I'm more concerned about society here not accepting him just because of his origin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 04:44AM by sexismyreligion.

And it is filled with people with all sorts of views. This is not your friends that know you.

If you post here, you need to be prepared for opinions, right or wrong, that you do not like. That is the nature of Internet discussion boards.

Yes, this is an Internet discussion board...but there should be at least a few posters here who can accept intercultural relationships, I would hope.

The thing is, you want to try to isolate the reason why you are joining the religion from the act of joining the religion then ask if it is moral.

I didn't add an answer in the other threads because it became apparent to me that you were asking for validation, and not input.

Yes, I am asking for validation in the sense that I am asking posters here to respect my right to marry who I choose. I'm willing to answer clarifying questions about why I made my decision, but I'm not going to change my mind about getting married.

You do know what looking for validation means right? You are just looking for us to validate what you are going to do anyway.

Well if you weren't looking for advice what were you looking for?

I was looking for advice and opinions on the topic I posted about - which was, as titled, "Joining a religion you don't believe in". In order to have a discussion on that topic, I had to give a little background as to why I would possibly join a religion I don't believe in. So I explained that I'm getting married to an Afghani, who doesn't believe in Islam, who is still in Afghanistan, and the laws there require an Islamic wedding which requires me to be either Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, with an obvious preference for Islam. I absolutely did not ask for any advice on whether I should marry him or anything about my relationship with him - just about how to deal with the Afghan law, and whether it is morally acceptable to join a religion just to meet legal requirements.

That would be okay, afaic. As long as you're not forced to practice it. It's just their civil legal requirements. Alternately you could marry outside the country ... ?

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. I can't really get married anywhere outside of Afghanistan, because he can't leave the country easily...unless I got him a fiancee visa and then got married in the US, which requires me to go to Afghanistan anyway, so I'm just getting married there. Technically there are other options...I could join a Christian church, for example, but that's still the same thing anyway, I would be joining a religion I don't really believe in.

It would be impossible or useless to go to Baluchistan (or the country of which it is a part) or Iran, so the only reasonable next-door option would be Uzbekistan. You could just drive over the border. It might not be that hard to get a visa, and Uzbekistan (a former Soviet country) is still fairly secular and probably does not have the Islamic wedding requirement. In fact, it's even against the law there to broadcast the call to prayer over loudspeakers, except for one historical mosque in Tashkent.

There are still visa restrictions to crossing that border, and every border, from Afghanistan - understandably so. An Afghan passport is literally the most difficult passport in the world to travel with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Afghan_citizens
In any case, I'm already going back to Afghanistan.

If we are not allowed to discuss the real reason for what you are doing, then we can't give good advice.

I do like how in one post you say "Not asking for advice", "
No, I'm definitely not asking for advice" in another you say "I was looking for advice..." Can't have it both ways.

If you were to ask where is the best place to have a gay wedding ceremony and I responded with reasons why you should not marry a man, I think you would have every right to be offended.

Then you moved the goal posts. That does not fly well here.

It sounds like you know what you want to hear and you're not hearing it, so your pissed.

There were several posters above who replied nicely to this thread and you told them off. That's no way to make friends.

If you already know what you wanna do, just do it. Why care so much about what other people think if you're not going to listen to their advice anyway?

I just tend to get tired of people who respond without bothering to read what I've written. I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to be real and be myself, and people can choose to accept that, or not.
Let's try this scenario. If you asked a question about decorations for your wedding on an internet board and someone responded that anyone who gets married is just asking to be raped, would you accept that? If you tried to explain that the assumption was ridiculous and another person jumped in, saying,"It sounds like you know what you want to hear and you're not hearing it, so your pissed." and "If you already know what you wanna do, just do it. Why care so much about what other people think if you're not going to listen to their advice anyway?" what would you think?

sexismyreligion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just tend to get tired of people who respond
> without bothering to read what I've written. I'm
> not here to make friends, I'm here to be real and
> be myself, and people can choose to accept that,
> or not.

Well, perhaps the people responding are being "real" and being themselves and you are doing to them what you are being critical of them for doing.

The thing is, you are not asking about decorations, you are asking about marrying a man that was raised in an area where women are not respected. Many here have legitimate concerns about how dangerous enculturation can be. What you are doing with the "decorations" thing is, IMHO, getting dangerously close to gas lighting.

ADDED BY EDIT: And yes, the real issue is the marriage and what he is asking you do do and sacrifice in order to get married.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 04:31AM by MJ.

MJ, I'm really glad you responded because I know that you respect logic.
The point that I was trying to make is that I'm not asking about marrying the person I'm engaged to. It just came up as background information. I was asking about a separate topic, which was the morality of claiming a religion I don't believe in, just to meet the legal requirements to get married.
Whether it is dangerous to marry a former Muslim or not, I have already accepted the risks and made my decision.

Also added by edit: He is not asking me, it is the situation itself - the laws in Afghanistan combined with the immigration laws in the US - which require me to join a religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 04:35AM by sexismyreligion.

But you are seemingly trying to find a way around it.

When looking at the morality of joining a religion, one must look at ALL the reasons one is joining the religion. You are not just joining a religion on a whim, you are joining TO GET MARRIED (Which means we are talking about the relationship).

The reason you are joining the religion, bottom line is to get married (Which means we are talking about the relationship).

Now, to decide if it is the right thing to do, we have to look at the REASON for doing what you are doing, which means we have to look at the marriage, if it is a marriage of equals or if it a one sided manipulation.

Sorry, but when you ask if it is moral to join a religion you don't believe in in order to be married under that religion, you can not separate the relationship from the joining that religion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 04:40AM by MJ.

OK, fair enough. The reason I would convert to Islam would be to meet the legal requirements to get married in Afghanistan. The relationship I am in is an equal partnership. He is not asking me to become Muslim, I volunteered to do so after researching the requirements myself and seeing the requirements on the US Embassy-Kabul website. After getting married in Afghanistan, he will be eligible for a visa to live here in the US. I cannot logically see how a person who is a non-practicing, non-believing Muslim within his own culture would change to become domineering, violent, or fanatical upon moving to the US. If that were to happen, I have the same protection any other US citizen would have against a violent spouse. While his culture may not treat women well, his sub-culture (immediate family) is different - his mother is a certified doctor, his sister is educated and speaks English fluently, etc. There are no guarantees in marriage, but the risks in this marriage seem no greater than in any other marriage, other than the fact that there will be cultural differences. From the non-logical, emotional side, I would take far greater risks based on the way I feel about him and the way he feels about me.
The original question, then, is about whether I should become Muslim. There are other options, such as becoming Christian - would that be preferable, and why?

To answer your original question directly, by becoming Muslim in a Muslim country you are subjecting yourself to the laws of a religion which does not allow resignation. Even if your fiance is perfect, you are potentially exposing yourself to risk.

Why is that you have to convert to being a Muslim to get married in Afghanistan?

When I go to the American Embassy in Kabul's web page I find this: "but it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman". Wouldn't that be you, a "non-Muslim, foreign, woman"? According to what I can find, you should be able to marry without converting.

http://kabul.usembassy.gov/marriage.html

You see, when I look at the detail and dig into the facts for myself, things just do not add up.

And I am not impressed with saying something like 'well the family is educated' or 'so and so is a doctor' Logic and an understanding of history shows that educated people, even Doctors can do atrocious things. I am not saying this to claim that they are bad, but to point out that your logic on this issue seems questionable at best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:15AM by MJ.

"If one of the individuals who wish to marry is Muslim, a religious Muslim ceremony will be performed at the time of registration. If both individuals are foreigners and non-Muslim, a civil ceremony may be performed."

"Religious Marriages

If both or one of the parties are Muslim, the Family Court will register the marriage and perform the Muslim nekah ceremony. The nekah is comprised of the igaba wa qabul (acceptance agreement) and the khotba.

When a Muslim man wants to marry a foreign woman who is non-Muslim and the woman is not kitabi (of the book, i.e. Christian or Jewish), she must first convert to Islam. In either case, the court will only register the marriage religiously, with the nekah ceremony."

The stuff you are quoting comes into play for religious, not civil marriages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:27AM by MJ.

"Civil Marriages

If both parties are non-Muslim foreigners, the court will register the marriage by performing solely the igaba wa qabul or acceptance agreement without the other half of the typical Muslim religious ceremony. The court will also seek to apply the regulations governing marriage in the couples’ home country."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:30AM by atheist&happy:-).

It is apparently allowed for if only the woman is a foreigner since non-Muslim foreign women are allowed to marry.

"Additionally, the court will not register marriages involving Afghans who claim not to be Muslim, unless the couple consents to a Muslim religious ceremony. Afghan law considers all Afghans Muslim by default."

It appears to me that, because he is Afghani, he is required to have a religious ceremony.

I think what Anagrammy wrote was very well said.

All of us are here for you on the board. We all want to help and support you (and everyone else), but with that comes the surprise that we are all human, and will tell you how we feel.

You did ask for our input/advice and it was given. Some of the things said (here and on the other threads) were normal reactions and questions. I understand that this is a stressful situation and that you may feel like you have to defend yourself all the time (especially if you live in a Mormon area etc), but that was not the case here.

You asked for opinions initially and when people did not respond with what you envisioned you did not react very well, which under the circumstances could be understood.

I'm curious as to why you brought this up again. I can understand being irritated that we as a community did not provide you with the responses you wished to receive, but why continue to pick at the scab? It appears to be that you are not only asking questions, but asking for a fight, as almost everyone who responds to your posts get attacked from you, no matter what they say.

Perhaps this is not the place to seek affirmation for this decision of your life. I'm not saying you are wrong, nor am I saying those of us on the board are wrong. I am saying that the behavior noticed on all of these conversations points to that this will be a "pick at the scab" situation and won't be remedied here.

I hope you find a solution that makes your circumstances easier to deal with and that everything works out for you.

Caitie

Thanks, Caitie. I think you may be right, that this issue is just something that cannot be resolved on this board. It just makes it difficult for me to be comfortable posting here when something so fundamental to me - the person I'm getting married to - is considered unacceptable. If I can't be myself here, what's the point in posting at all? I'm not trying to attack the posters who respond to me, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm trying to respond to ideas with other ideas, and I don't think I've said anything to personally insult anyone on here. If I have, I didn't mean to. I'm trying to figure out how I can express what I'm saying in a better way.

That thread goes back to July. You're still festering over that?

I still stand by what I said in that thread. I dated a guy from another culture for three years of face-to-face interaction (he was living here.) I would occasionally travel back with him to his home country. I do question the amount of time that you've spent with your fiance. I question whether you really know him all that well. I wonder if you really know what you're getting yourself into.

It might work out for you, and it might not. If the situation/marriage goes bad, it could go spectacularly bad for a number of reasons that people have pointed out. If you are determined to do it anyway, why are you worried about our opinions?

I understand why she is upset for the treatment she received. Some of the behavior here is exceptionally bad, and unforgettable.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:14AM by atheist&happy:-).

Congratulations for your engagement!

It is difficult forming a relationship with someone who comes from a different culture, because people tend to be prejudiced and you have to face a lot of crap and close your eyes to a lot.

Your relationship with him is the most important thing, and whatever anyone else has to say, it doesn't matter at all.

I find people in that part of the world to be very well mannared and respectful of other people's religion and all. My brother in law and sister travel there a lot, since their job requires. The real world there is different from what we are presented here in the West.

It's a matter of viewpoints and opinion, so, these debates/arguments are okay, I guess. They are frequent on the Internet.

It doesn't matter what religion you guys are, that's an abstract thing. What's real is the love between you two. What's real is the relationship you have, not the religion you may belong to.

I personally encourage multicultural relationships. My boyfriend is Chinese, but born and raised in Germany. I'm Eastern European, but live in Germany now....You can tell we come from different cultures, but that was never a problem for us. The culture you come from and your religion are trivial things. Don't let this affect your relationship in any way.

Anything is possible, and anything is acceptable when it comes to love.

If you're happy with him and he treats you well, then you're all set. Whatever anyone else has to say, like you said, they can fuck off.

Cheers!

So we all know what the law is pertaining to a non-Muslim foreign woman marring a Muslim in Afghanistan, the situation we are discussing as I understand it:

http://kabul.usembassy.gov/marriage.html

"It is not possible for a non-Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman in Afghanistan, but it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman." So, "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman."

Given this, I don't see why we are discussing conversion at all.

The stuff you are quoting only applies for RELIGIOUS marriages and do not apply to CIVIL marriage.

"but it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman"

Non Muslim women can be married WITHOUT CONVERTING.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,301269,301366,page=2#msg-301366


"Additionally, the court will not register marriages involving Afghans who claim not to be Muslim, unless the couple consents to a Muslim religious ceremony. Afghan law considers all Afghans Muslim by default."

It appears to me that, because he is Afghani, he is required to have a religious ceremony.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:36AM by atheist&happy:-).

That sentence ONLY APPLIES TO AFGHANS.

"Religious Marriages

If both or one of the parties are Muslim, the Family Court will register the marriage and perform the Muslim nekah ceremony. The nekah is comprised of the igaba wa qabul (acceptance agreement) and the khotba.

When a Muslim man wants to marry a foreign woman who is non-Muslim and the woman is not kitabi (of the book, i.e. Christian or Jewish), she must first convert to Islam. In either case, the court will only register the marriage religiously, with the nekah ceremony."

And do read further where it stats they only need to agree to the religious ceremony not convert.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:47AM by MJ.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:47AM by MJ.

"Afghan law considers all Afghans Muslim by default."

It says above, foreign women who are not xstian or Jewish "must first convert to Islam".

So under afghan law she is NOT CONSIDERED A MUSLIM. So, when you are talking about "involving afghans" MORE THAN ONE (thats what the "s" means at the end of "afghans") they would BOTH need to be afghan for that to apply.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:55AM by MJ.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 06:55AM by MJ.

sexismyreligion wanted support, and to vent, but you want to hijack her thread over a different subject than what she stated, AND over a topic she has already read about. Isn't that disprespectful?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:01AM by atheist&happy:-).

No, I did NOT hijack the thread. I pointed out that what she claims is DIFFERENT than what the USA embassy says. But nice try at trying to divert from the REAL ISSUE, the explicit STATEMENT THAT "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman" and I don't have to try to make a statement about RELIGIOUS marriage apply to CIVIL marriages to make that claim.

I am telling her that the embassy says she CAN GET MARRIED WITHOUT CONVERTING. How much more supportive do I need to get?

BTW, not every detail is listed on that page, so trying to say that the "CIVIL" section proves something because it is not included would not be valid.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:19AM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, I did NOT hijack the thread. I pointed out
> that what she claims is DIFFERENT than what the
> USA embassy says.

What she says is EXACTLY what the embassy says.

>But nice try at trying to divert from the REAL ISSUE,

Um, the REAL ISSUE is her original post. Thanks for reminding me why leaving the board is such a great idea.

> "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman"

It says the foreign woman must be either xtian or Jewish, and if not she must convert to Islam.

> I am telling her that the embassy says she CAN GET
> MARRIED WITHOUT CONVERTING. How much more
> supportive do I need to get?

That's not what it says.

> BTW, not every detail is listed on that page, so
> trying to say that the "CIVIL" section proves
> something because it is not included would not be
> valid.

Yeah, it's like relying on bona dea's invisible history credentials. If you had anything substantial, you could post it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:40AM by atheist&happy:-).

atheist&happy:-) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No, I did NOT hijack the thread. I pointed out
> > that what she claims is DIFFERENT than what
> the
> > USA embassy says.
>
> What she says is EXACTLY what the embassy says.

Not according to the embassies web site.

>
> >But nice try at trying to divert
> > from the REAL ISSUE,
>
> Um, the REAL ISSUE is her original post. Thanks
> for reminding me why leaving the board is such a
> good idea.

Yes, where she contradicts what is said on the embassy's web page. Yeah, this must remind you that you can't bully everyone into submission by accusing them of hijacking the thread,.


>
> > "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a
> > non-Muslim, foreign, woman"
>
> It says the foreign woman must be either xtian or
> Jewish, and if not she must convert to Islam.

ONLY IN THE RELIGIOUS CEREMONY PART NOT THE CIVIL CEREMONY PART. That ONLY applies for a RELIGIOUS ceremony. Even still that PROVE THAT SHE DOES NOT HAVE TO CONVERT TO ISLAM, she has a choice of converting to Christianity or Jewish as well.

> >
> > I am telling her that the embassy says she CAN
> GET
> > MARRIED WITHOUT CONVERTING. How much more
> > supportive do I need to get?
>
> That's not what it says.

That is EXACTLY WHAT IT SAY and I QUOTE "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim" If she has to convert, then the marriage would be between to Muslims, so in order for that statement to be true, she needs to be able to marry without converting, duh.

>
> > BTW, not every detail is listed on that page,
> so
> > trying to say that the "CIVIL" section proves
> > something because it is not included would not
> be
> > valid.
>
> Yeah, it's like relying on bona dea's invisible
> history credentials. If you had anything
> substantial, you could post it.

As I have, over and over, "but it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"

"it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"
"it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"
"it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"

Try to get the RELIGIOUS section to apply to the CIVIL section all you want, but that RELIGIOUS section of which you talk only applies to RELIGION and that is made clear when it says "In either case, the court will only register the marriage religiously, with the nekah ceremony." and the nekah ceremony is the only reason the woman needs to convert. Get it, that is ONLY for the RELIGIONS not CIVIL marriage.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not according to the embassies web site.

You cannot read.

> Yes, where she contradicts what is said on the
> embassy's web page. Yeah, this must remind you
> that you can't bully everyone into submission by
> accusing them of hijacking the thread,.

No, my facts are superior. I have not bullied anyone, and you are hijacking. Only bona dea resorts to the bullying claim when she has no facts.

> ONLY IN THE RELIGIOUS CEREMONY PART NOT THE CIVIL
> CEREMONY PART. That ONLY applies for a RELIGIOUS
> ceremony. Even still that PROVE THAT SHE DOES NOT
> HAVE TO CONVERT TO ISLAM, she has a choice of
> converting to Christianity or Jewish as well.

Where does it say an Afghani can have a civil ceremony? She already clarified this in regards to being xstian, etc.

> That is EXACTLY WHAT IT SAY and I QUOTE "it is
> possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"
> If she has to convert, then the marriage would be
> between to Muslims, so in order for that statement
> to be true, she needs to be able to marry without
> converting, duh.

That's circular, and once again not what it says.

> As I have, over and over, "but it is possible for
> a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim"

It also says if she is not xstian or Jewish she must convert to Islam.

> Try to get the RELIGIOUS section to apply to the
> CIVIL section all you want,

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,301269,301366#msg-301366

It clearly states there are no civil ceremonies for Afghanis, but only if the couple are both foreigners.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:59AM by atheist&happy:-).

Guess you can not win using REASON.

EXPLICIT AND CLEAR: "it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman" Word for word. She does NOT HAVE TO CONVERT TO BEING A MUSLIM, even by YOUR claims. Since she is still technically a Mormon, she would still be considered xtian, thus would even meet the religious marriage requirement to not have to convert to ANYTHING.

Now go take your childish personal attacks elsewhere.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 08:07AM by MJ.

Since you cannot post more than a partial sentence, here it is:

"MARRIAGE
If You Want to Get Married in Afghanistan . . .

Under Afghan law, civil and religious marriage ceremonies may be performed for some foreigners. Afghans who are dual nationals are treated solely as Afghan under the law.

It is not possible for a non-Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman in Afghanistan, but it is possible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim, foreign, woman. Additionally, the court will not register marriages involving Afghans who claim not to be Muslim, unless the couple consents to a Muslim religious ceremony. Afghan law considers all Afghans Muslim by default.

Marriage Registration

Foreigners who want to marry in Kabul must first register the marriage at the Family Court, located in the Kabul Governor’s House Compound. In the provinces, outside of Kabul, marriages can be registered at the civil courts.

The couple must appear at the Family Court in Kabul with two witnesses and photo identification (preferably their passports). Witnesses should also have photo identification. If one of the individuals who wish to marry is Muslim, a religious Muslim ceremony will be performed at the time of registration. If both individuals are foreigners and non-Muslim, a civil ceremony may be performed. After the court ceremony, the couple is considered married under Afghan law; they may then conduct the family or religious ceremony/celebration of their choice.

After the marriage is registered, the court will issue a marriage certificate upon request. In Kabul, court officials say, it will take about a week to receive the certificate.

Religious Marriages

If both or one of the parties are Muslim, the Family Court will register the marriage and perform the Muslim nekah ceremony. The nekah is comprised of the igaba wa qabul (acceptance agreement) and the khotba.

When a Muslim man wants to marry a foreign woman who is non-Muslim and the woman is not kitabi (of the book, i.e. Christian or Jewish), she must first convert to Islam. In either case, the court will only register the marriage religiously, with the nekah ceremony.

Civil Marriages

If both parties are non-Muslim foreigners, the court will register the marriage by performing solely the igaba wa qabul or acceptance agreement without the other half of the typical Muslim religious ceremony. The court will also seek to apply the regulations governing marriage in the couples’ home country. For example, although Afghan law permits polygamy, American men will not be allowed to marry multiple women."

Thanks for illustrating all the reasons why posting here is a waste of time.

And thanks for also showing how the OP's views are worthless, because it is not about her views, feelings or recovery, but about discrediting her so you can "win". This is why I don't post anything where I need sincere help or advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 08:12AM by atheist&happy:-).

Quote "When a Muslim man wants to marry a foreign woman who is non-Muslim and the woman is not kitabi (of the book, i.e. Christian or Jewish), she must first convert to Islam." So, ONLY if she is not Christian does she need to convert. Since she is still Mormon, thus still Christian, she does not have to convert.

She does not have to convert.

Oh, and thank you for posting the whole page since it justifies my claims perfectly. There is ZERO justification in that page for saying she, hectically a Christian, has to convert, thus zero support for your claims that she does. I'm even using the stuff that you referenced to support MY claim.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 08:17AM by MJ.

"I could join a Christian church, for example, but that's still the same thing anyway, I would be joining a religion I don't really believe in."

Bye bona dea!

"I'm still technically Mormon" Which means she is STILL MORMON AND STILL A CHRISTIAN according to a church. She does not have to join any other church. As long as she does not resign, there is no problem, she is still Christian according to the LDS church so there would be no lies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 08:20AM by MJ.

"the laws there require an Islamic wedding which requires me to be either Muslim, Jewish, or Christian, with an obvious preference for Islam."

and,

"It would make things easier if I were Muslim."

She does not HAVE to convert to anything. Yeah, MAYBE it would be easier, but that is not the same as saying one MUST convert. She has an option that does not require her to convert to anything. So, if she has some ethical dilemma regarding converting, she DOES NOT HAVE TO, dilemma solved.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 08:35AM by MJ.

Maybe she does not want to claim LD$ for reasons we are here: it traumatizes a lot of people. Since she does not believe either LD$ or Islam, maybe Islam is the better choice for her, whether to make the marriage easier or to honor his culture or extended family. Maybe this would have been discussed more if people had not decided to freak out over the thought of marrying a man from a Muslim culture.

All she wanted was a relevant conversation on her topic. She wanted to discuss the ethics of such a decision.

She is going to have to claim ONE religion or another. She does NOT have to claim she BELIEVES in the LDS because the membership does NOT require it. But she already IS an LDS even though she does not believe so in claiming she is LDS there would be NO LIES and no statement of belief.

To chose other religions she would have to lie.

So, are you saying giving her an option where she does not have to lie is not helping? That would only be in your book.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 09:11AM by MJ.

and doing so with cherry-picked, distorted quotes. The page you cited does not support what you are saying. Just because you can hijack, doesn't mean you should.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:33AM by atheist&happy:-).

And I am not the one cherry picking quotes from the religious section trying to make them apply to the civil section, the way YOU are distorting quotes.

My quote is explicit, clear and in a part of the text that is all inclusive, NOT in a "religious" or "civil" section.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:46AM by MJ.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 07:44AM by MJ.

Women do not need to convert.

Don't expect any reactions from this board that will please you.
people will react the way they see fit.

Not a tough decision. Fulfill the requirements for a K-1.

You guys are all idiots. An afghan is a blanket, not a rug. I don't know why she doesn't just marry a quilt or a comforter instead.



:: ducking & running ::



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 09:22AM by dogzilla.

If you had asked the same advice about marrying anyone from a patriarchal religion in a patriarchal region, I would say the same thing: Be careful.
It's your life and you live with the consequences, good or bad.

But I agree with the above posters who asked. 1. What do you expect when you ask for advice on a BB? and 2. Why does this still fester for you? If you know what you really want. why do you keep bringing it up here?

This thread is already so long, I hate responding here.

I glanced at the original thread, but didn't read everything there.

Just a thought about partnering with a muslim....

My HS girlfriend married a man from Iran (back in early 90s). She had a child. They went to Iran as a family. She had a horrible time "visiting" there and returned home without him, believing he would be back stateside within a week or two. He decided to stay and keep the child in Iran. She never saw her child again. There was no way for her to force him to come back, no extradition or other laws that worked out.

She divorced him and remarried later, I believe. It was sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2011 09:29AM by Jesus Smith.