Simple. Most people in America at the time of the founding of the United States were of the Christian persuasion. Many of the founding fathers were Christian, but a surprising number (compared to the general population) were not.

Our founding document, the U.S. Constitution, says nothing of being a Christian nation. The only references in it about religion is that there should be no relious tests for federally ellected positions. Obviously, it was not their intention to create a theocracy, Christian or otherwise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 01:18PM by fossilman.

Many of the founding fathers were atheist, and many of those who claimed to believe in a god were actually deists.

Christianity was the religion the aristocracy chose (and still chooses) to pacify the majority of the working class. It encourages magical thinking and removes the focus off the felt presences of immediate experience and focuses its adherents on the hereafter where everything will be "alright".

Knowing how dangerous any religion (especially christianity) can be the founding fathers created a secular consitution which is exactly the OPPOSITE of creating a nation based on christian principles.

As far as I can tell, it's illegal to stone unruly children, we can't own slaves anymore, rape victims are not forced to marry their rape victims, and homosexuality is not a crime punishable by death. So christian principles are decidedly not written into our constitution.

The Christians who, among others, founded our country and the Christian principles that were included in our founding, don't look anything like the beliefs and principles of those running around saying the country was founded by Christians on Christian principles.

kolobian Wrote:
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> Many of the founding fathers were atheist,

How many? ...Which ones?
> many of those who claimed to believe in a god were
> actually deists.


Actually a 'deist' does believe there is a god.

notmo

<<How many? ...Which ones?>>

Three: Larry, Curly, & Moe.

<<Actually a 'deist' does believe there is a god.>>

I thought I just said that.

and that is not necessarily so. i like the Larry, Curly and Moe! reference!!!

The country was also founded on slavery, and stealing from the native americans. I don't know that those early christians were following the old "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" too closely.

There are many things that this country needed and still needs to leave behind as we grow. The only ones who are still trying to maintain a link between the government and christianity are the ones who would benefit from it---at the expense of others, which they are more than willing to do.

Depends on which christian principles you're talking about....

Lets try these first.....

War: The christian god was/is always at war with someone and if it isn't a non-christain nation and it's people then it's a war with the devil. The US was founded after winning the war against England.

Genocide: God wipes out a few nations and cultures in the bible...just like the founders and those after them did with the Ameriacan Indians.

Adultry: Seems the founders had a few relationships outside marriage (ay' Mr. Jefferson?)....and hey, so did god with Mary!

Theft: Early Americans pretty much stole everything the Indians had.

Slavery: God seems OK with slavery too, both in the bible and in the founding of his favorite nations.

So if you are talking about these christian priciples (bible based), then I'd have to say yes.

If you're talking about other christain priciples like honesty, compassion, forgiveness, charity, etc.....then no, not so much.

Those Indians that Moroni told Joseph Smith about had a hand in influencing the Constitution.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/hconres331.pdf

Not too shabby for a bunch of non-Christian degenerates.

For your reading pleasure and enlightenment may I suggest:

"Myths America Lives By" and "Christian America" both by Richard Hughes. He quite satisfactorily demolishes the notion that America was intended to be a Christian nation.

You may also enjoy "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

There is no doubt that America was founded upon the cultural inheritance of European Christianity.

There is also no doubt that the *principles* that founded The United States of America, ie. the legal framework that created a nation in 1776, were a product of the Rationalist 18th Century, which included a great deal of Classical Learning (Greece and Rome). Whether Christian or Deist, for example, the Founding Fathers centred themselves upon Classical Learning and the Rationalist thinking that Learned men of the time were engaged in.

In short: the Founding Fathers went out of their way to NOT find the United States upon Christian principles but instead upon Rational principles. If The United States were founded upon Christian principles, for example, then George Washington would have been made King, God's Man on Earth, which would have been a thoroughly normal and European thing to have done. America's founding was Radical.

Nevertheless, and this was made extremely palpable in the Burned-Over District that played a part in the making of Joseph Smith, American culture was and still is profoundly Christian.

The problem people run into here is the failure to distinguish between a Legal Framework (principles) and a cultural milieu.

thank goodness he refused!!! :)

In general, people in the 1700s were more religious than today. So anything that was accomplished in terms of good things can be associated with that statement. Likewise anything bad accomplished in that time frame can be associated in a similar manner. HOWEVER, that does NOT provide causation. The fact that some (not all) of the "founding fathers" were Christians does NOT mean that the founding document would never have happened if they were believers in Zorasticism or Buddhism, etc.

Additionally, it is kinduv a "so what" thing for me. So what if they were Christians? One of their founding principles and underlying beefs with governments around them at the time was the tying of government to any official religion. They didn't want that kind of situation here in our country. Non-belief was not a precluding factor for service in the government. It may be in the minds of many low-thinking voters of today, but it was not what they believed.

Jefferson didn't even believe in Christ. He liked his teachings though.

I kinduv think the same way, fyi.

I just think of a bumper sticker that said, "The last time church and state were combined, people were burned at the stake."

It was called the Dark Ages! Our nation was founded on the principles and ideals of the Enlightenment not Christianty. It owes more to Greek philosophers than Christian Apostles.

Funny, but I now always call the "Dark Ages" "The Golden Age of Christianity".

otherwise known as the Age of Reason.
Direct these people to read some Thomas Paine.

I guess you watch Beck and I don't, because I don't have a clue what you're referring to.

However, there is a strong argument to support the idea that we are a Christian nation today.

The United States, as so eloquently put by Margaret Thatcher, was not founded on history or religion, unlike most nations. No, the United States of America was founded on philosophy. Many of the lines and ideas outlined in the constitution, as well as the declaration of independence and other founding documents can be linked to the works of great philosophers throughout history - NOT the Bible or a textbook of events that happened in America prior to that time.

I refer them to the treaty of tripoli http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

"The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripolitania, signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. It was submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.


"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

I have yet to hear a good rebuttal to that one.

The first thing the Founding Fathers did was to seperate Church and State.

The Religious lust for Political Power would suggest that the country was not based upon Christian or Religious principles.

extensive references to God by early FF and upon the edifices built in those days let alone the people in general of that day?
Now I know that wikipedia is not the source of all knowlege like Google (sorry I don't wish to take the google name in vain), but it does give references from time to time.
Take a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
The only Deist mentioned is Thomas Payne and most were christian of some sort or another as well as Catholic.

Certainly not moreso than the secular principles of the Enlightenment.

I can't see why it wouldn't have. However, their first-hand experiences with a tyrranical religion I'm sure led them to keeping religion in its place.

What exactly is the case you're trying make, Drilldoc? That the so-called christians who helped form the country acknowledged that their bigotrous and superstitious holy book had no guidance to offer on forming a sound government so they appealed to enlightenment principles instead?

BadGirl is right. Just because many of the men who helped form the government claimed to be christian doesn't mean they used christian principles in doing so. The opposite is true, in fact.

If the country had been founded on christian principles then we wouldn't have a justice system. Whenever someone broke a law we'd make them stand up and proclaim their belief in jesus. If they did, they wouldn't be punished because supposedly jesus was already punished for it. Thanks, Jesus!

Then we'd have a whole country full of people claiming to be christian just so they could get away with whatever they wanted with no fear of punishment.

Wait, we DO have a country full of people claiming to be christian just so they can get away with whatever they want with no fear of punishment in the hereafter.

It's a good thing the founding fathers used enlightenment principles to form the government or we'd have christian anarchy! inthenameofjesuschristamen.

Christian values were certainly woven into the constitution, but I understand what you're saying. These men hashed out the constitution that no other society had done previously by learning from the follies of the past - including a state sanctioned religion.

Yeah, Christian as represented in by the words: president, legislature, republic, democracy, popular vote, senate, constitution, representative, etc..? All words are taken from pagan, polytheist governments. Most of the founding fathers, products of the Age of Enlightenment, were deists, not Christians. As mentioned previously they stated in the Treaty of Tripoli that “the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”. Christian fundamentals are trying to rewrite history in their own view.

Many fundamentalist morons, who can't even recite the Ten Commandments, use them as reference to prove their point when in fact, only two of ten are illegal. The rest are simply religious or sectarian rules.

No Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 08:15PM by nomo.