I talked to her today, and I agreed to go on two conditions:
1. The first person who asks me if I'd like to talk to a missionary or if I'd like to discuss LDS in detail is losing at least four teeth. One more for each person after that.
2. She has to read "anti-Mormon" literature.
She agreed to the conditions. So, what are some books I can give her that might open her eyes to TSCC?
Edit: When I asked her today just why she wanted me to go so bad, at first she denied wanting to convert me, and brought up the fact that she's never tried before. I kept pushing, and she admitted that she wanted to see if "What made her happy might make me happy."
In the last topic, people referenced the pressure she's supposed to be under to find a Mormon boy and get married. Is there any way I can bring that up to her without sounding like a prick? I'm sorry for unloading all this on the forum, but this is a year and a half of bull**** coming to a head. I'm ready to resolve this.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 01:42PM by bubbagump.
Is there nothing I can show her to help challenge her worldview? She really is a good person, but she seems afraid to face the idea that everyone in her family might be wrong. I grew up questioning everything, so I don't really know what tack to take on this. At this point, I don't care if we stay together. I just want her to actually think.
You might try emphasizing how good your life is because you question everything, how empowered you are by making your own moral decisions, how independence and freedom have helped you grow up.
i also think if you just ask her simple questions like "what do you think of polyandry? pretend i was smith, would you like that?"
something like that...but take it easy.
always remember what morpheus said to neo:
"You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
You can't make people see what they aren't ready to see. In my experience, if people want to find out the truth, they will, but you can't push it on them.
Honestly, the best book to give her is the bible. Yes, they say they believe in it but if they were to actually dig through scripture they would begin to find that the religion is a false prophecy.
For example, Luke 16:16 says "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." John died in 36 AD, Joseph Smith was born in 1805. Therefore, Joseph Smith couldn't possibly be a true profit. And they still believe there are prophets today
Deuteronomy 18:20 "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” Yes, Smith speaks in the name of the Lord but he also wrote the Book of Mormon which is full of commands that are not in the Bible
Romans 16:17-18 "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Smith created the belief that there is no trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He also created the belief that males receive their own plants after death. He also created the belief of the three levels of heaven and created many rules and commands such as it is a sin to not have children....and many many more that are contrary to the bible. These all are not true according to the bible, therefore causing a division to what God says and deceiving the minds of the naive.
There are many many more verses that disprove the religion but these are just the three that stood out to me the most. Hope it helps
This is a terrible approach. As much as mainstream christians love to cherry-pick the bible, mormons will do the same.
It's much easier to get the mormon jesus out of the bible than it is the mainstream jesus.
After all, who was jesus praying to anyway? And he's the son of who? himself?
The new testament will reinforce her convictions even more. You can't use fairy tales to destroy people's faith in other fairy tales. You have to expose all fairy tales.
It might have been a little rash to say, but I meant it. Violence may not be the best answer, but it's the best one I can utilize. In all my experience, life boils down to conflict - either protecting what you hold dear or fighting back to what you consider a wrong. That's what I believe, at any rate. I accepted long ago that if there is a God (and I believe there is), I have a seat waiting for me in Hell. I'm not too concerned what any one group thinks of me.
Its HUGE that she said they would read an "anti-Mormon" book. Most Mormons simply refuse to look at ANYTHING critical of Mormonism.
If she is willing, then hands down it's anything by Jerald & Sandra Tanner. I would probably give her The Changing World of Mormonism (or the more comprehensive Mormonism - Shadow or Reality?) If she actually reads either of these two books I pretty much guarantee she will no longer believe in Mormonism.
An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer is also excellent.
Here's a compilation of other essential books on learning the truth about Mormonism. I have placed a star next to my favorite recommendations since most people would obviously not read all of them.
History/Joseph Smtih
* Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? (or The Changing World of Mormonism) by Jerald & Sandra Tanner
* An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer * No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn M. Broadie * The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power by D. Michael Quinn * The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power by D. Michael Quinn Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer Mormon America, The Power and the Promise by Richard Ostling, Joan K. Ostling One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church by Richard Abanes Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Lyman Bushman Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet by Dan Vogel Joseph Smith: The First Mormon by Donna Hill The Prophet Puzzle: Interpretive Essays on Joseph Smith by Bryan Waterman Joseph Smith and the Origins of The Book of Mormon by David Persuitte The Keystone of Mormonism by Arza Evans The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past by D. Michael Quinn Mormon Mavericks: Essays on Dissenters - John Sillito and Susan Staker
Polygamy
* In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith by Todd Compton * Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda King Newell Mormon Polygamy: A History by Richard S. Van Wagoner Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage by B. Carmon Hardy Nauvoo Polygamy: “… but we called it celestial marriage” by George D. Smith
Book of Mormon *New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology by Brent Metcalfe *Quest for the Gold Plates: Thomas Stuart Ferguson’s Archaeological Search for the Book of Mormon by Stan Larson *American Apocrypha: Essays on the Book of Mormon by Dan Vogel and Brent Lee Metcalfe Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church by Simon G. Southerton
Book of Abraham *By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles M. Larson
Folk Magic/Occult Practices * Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn
Temple Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony: 1842-1990 by Jerald and Sandra Tanner The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship - David John Buerger
Mountain Meadows Massacre Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Will Bagley The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Brooks, Juanita
Misc Line Upon Line: Essays on Mormon Doctrine by Gary James Bergera Power From On High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood - Gregory A. Prince
Rough Stone Rolling is a decent recommendation, especially if a Mormon reads it on the basis of it being a neutral-to-sympathetic portrayal. It comes so close to admitting the fraud that I'm amazed the Mormons give it any endorsement at all, but I first heard of it from apologists. It did a lot to crystallize the concerns I had about the church, although it took a while for the effect to be felt. If she reads it and isn't at least a little suspicious, then you can probably give up.
I've heard of Rough Stone Rolling, and I always figured it was more an affirmation of TSCC than anything else. Granted, this is just judging from reviews on various websites. I haven't had time to read it.
Rough Stone Rolling is a good book for Mormons who refuse to look at "anti" books. It defends Mormonism and spins things but at least it brings up information that most Mormons probably aren't aware of. If she's willing to read something more critical then I would leave this one alone for now.
EDIT: Screw it...other people are right. Rough Stone Rolling isn't strong enough for this purpose. If she reads it assuming it's anti-Mormon, it'll make the case against the church look weaker than it is.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 04:53PM by silverlightx.
bubbagump Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you so much. I'll definitely see about > getting Mormonism - Shadow or Reality. Have a > wonderful day.
I was a very devout TBM serving a mission when I read this book. It totally shattered my "testimony." It took me a few more years to leave the church but deep down I knew it wasn't true.
You can suggest books, she might read them,(maybe not), but you may be asking someone to do something that is not likely to happen.
You may want her to "think" and that means something totally different to her.
She has just as much right to her beliefs as you do. How about just letting that be?
If and when she wants to look at her beliefs, she will do it, on her own, not because it's suggested, required, or demanded by someone else. That's how I see it.
If you are interested in finding someone to marry, isn't it best to have as much as possible in common and be a match? You said she is not marriage material for you, so why not just drop it. Let her go.
From her point of view, why does she need to "open her eyes" to anything? She has made her choices, she has invited you, if you don't want to go, say so and don't make it about conditions. A relationship made on ultimatums won't work anyhow.
You have a point. I guess I just don't see it as being a matter of ultimatums yet. We've both asked things of each other, with no consequences for saying no. If it does turn into a matter of ultimatums at any point, I'll let go. I've no delusions of building something with a cracked foundation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2011 03:12PM by bubbagump.
I say its only fair if Mormons "invite" you to study their beliefs you should be able to counter it. He's not forcing her to read any books and is not forcing her to change her beliefs. If she reads bubbagump's book(s) and she still believes in Mormonism, then more power to her but she has the right to know the truth too. Maybe it will be the best thing to happen to her and maybe we'll see on this board in the future.
I had no desire to leave the church when I read Mormonism - Shadow or Reality. I thought I was going to be able to refute it for investigators who were reading it. It was very hard on me to learn the truth but now I am very glad I did.