(Very short background on us. My wife and I decided to leave the church and are preparing to do so formally in about 2 weeks. See my previous threads for more info)

My wife and I have been seeing a marriage counselor for about a year now. We started seeing this counselor as a referral from LDS Family Services. The church is not and has never paid for sessions with this counselor.

Our next appointment coming up is on October 10th. We have not yet informed her that we are leaving the church. I'd rather not pay $80 for a session that's all about her trying to convince us to stay.

My wife and I still have a lot of issues we need to work out together so we need marriage counseling but we'd rather not start over with a new one.

Your feedback?

We like our counselor and we would like to continue seeing her.

Since she is affiliated with LDS Family Services, what ramifications if any are there for us to see her as former mormons?

She also sees non-mormons in her practice since she doesn't work 100% exclusively for LDS Family Services.

She has always claimed that she doesn't share information with the church that our sessions are confidential.

It might be fine, but I doubt it.

I went to a therapist who wasn't LDS Family Services, but WAS LDS.

After she called me an anti-Mormon, I got up and walked out.

You might get lucky, but the odds are against you.

"You might get lucky, but the odds are against you."

$80 may be a lot of money for a missionary sermon (you'll be getting plenty of those for free!). But on balance it seems good value compared to the possible alternatives, and probably worth the risk.

The downside is limited to the cost of a couple of sessions before finding a new counselor anyway.

I would think it would be a serious breach of ethics for her to share you information or stop seeing you just because of your religious beliefs, or lack thereof. If this happens I'd see a lawyer in a heartbeat.
Is there anyway you could break the news to her ahead of time? rather than risk the $80 to see if it turns into a "You get wise! You get to church!" lecture.

Call the therapist and share the news before the session. If she says "no problem I can respect that" then maybe it's worth it to continue working with her. If it's a deal breaker for the therapist then you can save the 80 bucks and the repent sermon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 12:53PM by Stunted.

LDS Family Services therapists are often the worst quality, since the pay is low. Additionally, their overriding concern is abiding by church standards. Obviously, if you leave the church, you are not abiding by standards. This will be the core of therapy.

Get a new therapist, not LDS.

By the way, years ago, my daughter (then in 6th grade) needed a therapist. My cousin, LDS TBM shrink, advised against LDS Family Services and their referrals. He suggested a great Catholic therapist at the U of U. Best thing we ever did!! She worked miracles, without a single PHood blessing. Go figure!

Thanks for the feedback.

I think we'll just cancel the appointment and tell her we think we're good for now.

She's done a lot of good with us but I think she's taken us as far as she can. We're ready to move on.

My wife and I have determined that some of the core issues that brought us to needing marriage counseling in the first place actually stem from the dogma of the church.

It's the Principle of Perfection in the church that infected us and it also infected our relationship. To the point that for the past few years both my wife and I became disaffected but we were unable to tell each other and continued to pretend to be TBM even to each other.

I just can't see how an LDS Family Service therapist could help us work on the topic of how the church dogma actually did our family harm.

Having someone else as a therapist might help you navigate through this transition together.

And you'll be able to shed Mormonism to hopefully strengthen your marriage.


Good luck!

I think you're right. I don't have any problem with Family Services therapists, and I had one for a while who was decent. But there's only so good they can be when they're unwilling to consider that the church might be the cause of peoples' problems, rather than the solution.

There's nothing wrong with changing therapists. A fresh perspective would probably be good, even if you weren't quitting the church. I think your thought about the value of moving on is a good one.

I tend to agree. I might seem undaunting to start over with a new terrapist, but it could give you a chance for new perspective.
Or again the idea of calling head of appointment with the news and see what and how she answers could give you an idea of good or bad vibes about it. Or you can go for your session then wait to give the news near the end of it so you don't lose the worth of your money.

An LDS therapist would never attribute any of your perception problems to brainwashing by the cult.

Everything would always be a personal defect that you can work on.

It has been truly amazing how people right here on RfM begin to recover quickly once they realize that THEY ARE STILL THINKING LIKE A MORMON even after they leave.

The good news is, it's just a habit and habits can be broken.

I endorse you for recognizing that both of you pretending to be TBM to each other while secretly doubting is a problem. The problem is not you, though. The church married you to itself in the temple and then to each other "as each is faithful to the laws and covenants" blah, blah, blah.

So from Day One, the church placed itself squarely between the two of you. And everything it has done or said since then has been to further anchor it's importance as the iron rod, more important than anything else, even your mate, and sadly, even your child.

This, and only this brainwashing can explain the horror that some of us experienced as we are cut off by loving parents, siblings, aunts, uncles. It is abnormal and represents stunted familial bonds as collateral damage done by the Mormons in the course of eroding your individual identity for better assimilation.

Congratulations on ripping off your headpieces and running off together into the desert! You are going to be just fine--and your new therapist will help you spot any metal shrapnel that remains.

Best of luck,

Anagrammy

A few years ago, When I had doubts about the church and while my TBM wife and I were attempting to work through our relationship issues, we saw 2 LDS therapists, one in Utah and one in another state, where we moved when I took a new job.

Although both seem to work somewhat for her, they were both very unhelpful to me. They both took her side automatically, when I shared my struggles with faith and Mormonism.

We ended up divorcing and I left the church and subsequently sought out personal non-LDS therapists (not difficult where I live) to help me transition from living in a very controlling lifestyle and fully programmed existence to a completely new life, where I was basically starting from scratch. The difference in therapist orientation, outlook and process is like night and day, from my point of view.

I would highly recommend finding another therapist who can support you both during a very difficult transition. It is not easy to find good therapists, but in the long run, it will be the most helpful thing you can do for yourselves.

I have a different perspective. You might give her a call and tell her you are leaving the church and would like to talk with her for a few minutes about whether or not she feels she can continue to work with you on your terms about your marriage.

P.S. If you do change, I can give you information on an exmormon therapist in the Salt Lake area. Just email me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 03:38PM by robertb.

Isn't that like taking a Lamborghini to a Kia dealership for repairs? I dont get it.

Ron

I agree with robertb. If this therapist has been helpful, at least ask her if she'd be comfortable continuing to work with you.

I had two therapists that saved my life, and both were mormon bishops - one in Utah County and one in Salt Lake City.

After I graduated from BYU I went into a very severe depression that included several suicide attempts. In fighting my way out of all of it I left the church and came out as gay.

And believe it or not, BOTH LDS bishop therapists told me I needed to leave the church. (I didn't consider it an option when the first therapist told me that. I really started thinking when the second one told me the same thing.)

To be clear, I never had anything to do with LDS Social Services during any of this. So I don't know what kinds of therapists they refer people to. But much to my surprise, two LDS therapists saved my life.

If you're worried about your therapist telling other people personal information about you, you shouldn't. Federal HIPPA laws are very strict about revealing medical information. Health care providers in violation of the law are prosecuted. Plus you can sue them for malpractice.

My thinking is nlocnil and his wife haven't revealed to the therapist their struggle with Mormonism and the effect it has had on their marriage. So, there is a big piece of information the therapist has not been given. When therapy stalls, sometimes it is because important information is being withheld, although there are certainly other reasons as well on both the part of the client and the therapist. nlocnil mentioned the therapist works with non-members also, so she is capable of doing that. Her non-Mormon clients would not tolerate her preaching to them or making Mormonism an issue. So it appears there are assumptions being made about the therapist that haven't been checked out. They may be true and the best thing to do is to move on to another therapist. On the other hand, providing the information that has been withheld may really improve the therapy.

Should his therapist have known by now (a year+) that both of them were doubting the religion and not communicating it to each other?

Wouldn't that be a sign that the therapist's own religious orientation was fostering assumptions regarding shared belief, whereas the more helpful role would have been to ferret out the possibility of an underlying issue?


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should his therapist have known by now (a year+)
> that both of them were doubting the religion and
> not communicating it to each other?
>
> Wouldn't that be a sign that the therapist's own
> religious orientation was fostering assumptions
> regarding shared belief, whereas the more helpful
> role would have been to ferret out the possibility
> of an underlying issue?

I don't know. Without having been in the session or having tapes or transcripts, I couldn't say, and then it would be an opinion. Therapists know what you tell them and what they observe in the 50 minute session. Also unknown is the frequency of the sessions--did they see the therapists weekly, bi-weekly, monthly? That makes a difference on how much information you get.

It may also be the therapist has in mind what to address when. Therapists often prioritize what issues they will discuss when, if at all. They may suspect things that clients aren't ready to discuss and feeling doing so would at that point would create more problems that it would solve. Often you have to wait for the client to bring something up or provide some indication they are ready to discuss some difficult issue they have held back. So, again, I don't know. It's a lot easier to assume what someone else should do than to be the one doing it.

It seems to me that you create a double-bind: If the therapist doesn't bring up the issue it is because she assumes agreement because everyone is presumably Mormon. If the therapist brings up the issue, it is because she has an agenda. But it is still only assumptions and the way out of that is to bring up the issue.

It may be that nlocnil's rejection of the church has created so much a sense of mistrust on his part that he doesn't want to continue with this LDS therapist nor check out his assumption of how she would deal with it. So the best option is to leave. That is fine, because the therapist is, after all, someone you hire to help you and you can stop services anytime for any reason. But that is not on the therapist.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 08:25PM by robertb.

What would happen if your therapist was a bishop and you told him in a session that you were still masturbating. Could he keep you from going on a mission?

Ana :)

Seems to me if your bishop is your therapist, that is a dual relationship and he would have to stop being your bishop or your therapist. :-) If you are paying him for therapy, he has to follow the rules for therapists not bishops. At least that is how I think it should work.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My thinking is nlocnil and his wife haven't
> revealed to the therapist their struggle with
> Mormonism and the effect it has had on their
> marriage. So, there is a big piece of information
> the therapist has not been given.

We did share with her our main problem with Mormonism and that is the Principle of Perfection. That tenet is what our disaffection boils down to.

Our therapist was unable to help there she acknowledged that the church has very high standards and that she herself has suffered depression over it and is on anti-depressants.

The mormon tenet of perfection almost destroyed my life and my marriage. Anytime I had doubts about the church I questioned my own sinful nature and brushed my warranted doubts aside because "I must not be spiritual enough". That infinite loop kept me locked into TBM.

I could never share my doubts with my wife nor her with me because that would break down the wall of perfection and let someone else know that I/we weren't perfect.

It's a total disease and makes for a miserable existence. Once I acknowledged the fact that nobody is perfect I realized the truth that no mormon will ever make it to the CK. That's how cruel the mormon god is.

Once I was able to make that assessment regarding perfection, the rest of the house of cards fell down. Now I can't believe I was ever ok with Polygamy, Racism, and a million other crazy things.

I'm ashamed to say it but I knew all the historical issues before. None of the topics on this board are new to me.

But I was trapped in TBM because of my own shame/guilt/self doubt.

Got it. I think finding a different therapist may be very helpful, then. It doesn't sound like your current therapist can join you on the next leg of your trip. Not that you need my approval. Sometimes an impasse means information is missing; sometimes that it is time to move on. I've done that myself, by the way. Shop around, don't be afraid to ask questions, see if you can get a free initial session.

Perfection is a killer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 09:40PM by robertb.

nlocnil Wrote:

> Once I was able to make that assessment regarding
> perfection, the rest of the house of cards fell
> down. Now I can't believe I was ever ok with
> Polygamy, Racism, and a million other crazy
> things.
>
> I'm ashamed to say it but I knew all the
> historical issues before. None of the topics on
> this board are new to me.
>
> But I was trapped in TBM because of my own
> shame/guilt/self doubt.

You can think of it this way: You decided to give up Mormonism when you saw it was not longer in your best interest to be Mormon. Part of our best interest is to be congruent--as well as we can be--with our real values and needs. I knew most of the historical problems, too, before I left the church, but I didn't make the decision to leave until I understood deeply (and painfully) that Mormonism was bad for me. Unfortunately, I had a high tolerance for crap. There could be a long discussion about just that and how it plays into being a Mormon.

This could just as easily read:

"LDS Family Services is an Oxymoron". :)

Ron

Keep in mind that one of the prevailing difficulties with the Morg lifestyle is the lack of personal boundaries. Will an LDS therapist respect the ethics of privacy?

Well, what are your therapist's credentials? She should have them posted in her office (and you really should have checked those out first thing--don't you usually do so with a Medical Doctor? Therapists should be held to the same standard!) If they (the credentials) are through a professional organization that is not affiliated with LDS, she is ethically and legally bound to keep what happens in your sessions private. But if she is just liscensed by LDS, Inc., she probably won't.

and you cannot practice legally without being licensed. Licensing requires the proper education, an internship, and passing state exams.

The exception is interns can practice under the supervision of a licensed therapist who has met the requirements to be a supervisor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 08:24PM by robertb.

consider yourself lucky as your wife and you are on the same platform, and wanna leave together. but paying 80 dollars and telling this therapist this information will not help you. she will proberly be mean to you