I don't remember any women seeing the plates (I don't believe there were any). I had a friend ask me this morning, 'What women?"

I said that I had never heard of any women SEEING the plates. I knew somebody on this board could answer her question. Page 76 and 77 supposedly answer 'common questions' about the book of mormon but the answers given are very vague. (Nothing new there.)

What 'women' saw the plates?

It also says the witnesses had testified to their death that 'they had seen an angel and had handled the plates'. Ok. Saw an angel. Handled (not saw) plates. But I don't remember any women involved as witnesses.

Thanks for your help in answering her question. She is starting to waver and ask her own questions which is a good sign her mind (and eyes) are opening.

That's all I can think of.

Emma may of felt something under the sheets,but it wasn't the plates!

ANN...was it Hellen?????

NOBODY saw the plates, because THEY DIDN"T EXIST!

when they were in a state of enchantment, with their "spiritual eyes." No man or woman them with their real eyes, in the light of day, cold sober.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 05:40PM by forestpal.

For 60 years I attended as a TBM and NEVER heard of any but of Emma's 'dusting' and hearing the 'rustle' of the plates.

I guess women weren't as believable as men in those days. Most witnesses had to be male. Oh ya, the priesthood dominates even today. Here is the list of 5 women. Very interesting.




Mary Whitmer

Lucy Mack Smith

Emma Smith

Katherine Smith Salisbury

Lucy Harris

...or cloth or something.

And they "saw" the plates with their "spiritual" eyes, NOT their physical eyes.

I don't have the references handy for these. However, in all my church-related studies, I never read that anyone (besides JS, ha, ha) saw or touched the bare (i.e. uncovered, unconcealed) golden plates with their physical eyes or directly with the skin of their physical hands.

But of course, Nevermos and uninformed members who read the article will assume it is meant literally/physically...just as the lying leaders intend.

WiserWomanNow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...or cloth or something.
>
> And they "saw" the plates with their "spiritual"
> eyes, NOT their physical eyes.
>
> I don't have the references handy for these.
> However, in all my church-related studies, I never
> read that anyone (besides JS, ha, ha) saw or
> touched the bare (i.e. uncovered, unconcealed)
> golden plates with their physical eyes or directly
> with the skin of their physical hands.
>
> But of course, Nevermos and uninformed members who
> read the article will assume it is meant
> literally/physically...just as the lying leaders
> intend.


Damn those lying leaders!! If there is a god, I hope she's pissed at all their lies!!!

...why someone didn't whip the cloth off of the "plates." You want a testimony? Show me what you've got. Otherwise, it's just a pretty tale.

Yeah we see those all the time. Usually next to the Niagra shot glasses and moldy Atari games.

Seriously though, if the Plates are real and the BoM is true then the church with its plurality of wives and gods and secret combinations is false.

the B o Mormon says that Divorce is Only justified by fornication/adultery (Christ's own words, as in Bible).

The GAs say...all the time... that it's up to God's prophet to speak for God.

Any changes in the Divorce thing since the BoMormon?

any?


ANY?


nope, none.

...the church is finally acknowledging the transgender operation one of the Whitmer brothers had?

(j/k)

Revisionist history at work. They just write the story as they go.

i was in the church from 1971- 2006. Well, the last few years i didn't get the ensign so i may not have read the latest bs they were trying to sell.


Emma felt them under a cloth and i think mary whitmer saw them because of all the mess her life was in when the men were translating them there. i think that it was mary whitmer. Lucy harris?? since when. didn't she take the 116 pages and LOSE them???

who is that kathryn woman?

Can you give the link for this NEW information?

Not that any of it is true at all. sigh.

They probably got a memo from the P.R. firm in New York that said: "go back and rewrite the history to include more women doing cool stuff."

Makeks me glad I sent this @#$%^ issue to my TBM DH overseas and told him to let the enemy isue this issue as target practice, bwaa haa haa.

We don't have precise accounts of what the dogs, pig and cat saw.

Emma also saw Joseph Smith put a goat-turd-sized rock in a hat, stuff his face in the hat and pretend to read "translations" off of the rock in the hat.

The human witlesses mostly saw things with their "spiritual eyes." In other words, they were talked into imagining things. Then they talked about what they imagined as though they were real. This is the charitable understanding. Chances are they were just fibbing most of the time.

Mary Whitmer saw NEPHI with the plates. Nephi had them in a backpack, pulled them out and then magically disappeared with them--like a leprauchan, only minus the magically delicious stars and moons. But we only know about Mary Whitmer's story second hand from her grandson.

I don't recall Emma claiming to see the naked plates. Seems they were always wrapped up.

In any case, Joseph Smith's tall tales (fibs) fall apart at so many levels... (language warning)...it really is a miracle that the leaders of LDS ChurchCo have kept so many people so enthralled for so long in their organized worship of Joe Smith's con-artist fabricated bullshit.

For example, let's just look at some of the inexplicable inconsistencies in the Golden Plates tale.

On the one hand, Joe has to get his hands on the physical golden plates in order to translate the ancient text into English.

But on the other hand, he doesn't really need the physical golden plates because he can just see the entire text through the brown rock he calls a seer stone or, alternatively, through the "Urim and Thummim" crystals that reportedly are mounted on a breastplate.

But then he also sometimes calls the brown rock the "Urim and Thummim" just to confuse things further.

Then there's the problem of keeping the golden plates safe because they're gold and precious and bad guys want to steal them.

But at the same time, it seems that the angel (or at least AN angel) always has them in his own custody, which is why the Three Witnesses (Witlesses) had to wait for an angel to bring the golden plates to them, so that they could do their big witnessing thing.

According to John Whitmer's story about his Grandma Whitmer seeing the golden plates, Nephi (not Moroni) had the plates in a backpack and, after pulling them out and showing them to Grandma W., Nephi quickly stuffed them back in the backpack and immediately vanished. Chronologically, this would probably have been around the same time that Joe was going to great lengths to hide the plates here and there to protect them. Poor Joe going to all that trouble while the angel or angels were borrowing them anytime they pleased and schlepping them all over the place in backpacks.

According to other tall tales told by Joe and Ollie, the golden plates were managed by Moroni. So you've got at least two angels, Nephi and Moroni, who are running around with the golden plates. I wonder if they had angelic check-out cards (like in libraries), so that god could keep track of who had most recently checked out the golden plates.

So while the angels are obviously still managing security for the golden plates, we get strange scenarios where Joe, in one instance, has to run through the woods with these extremely heavy plates to keep them out of the hands of would-be thieves and, in another instance, supposedly has to hide them in a barrel of beans or something like that. So what was that all about? If some bad guys actually stole them, wouldn't it just be easy as pie for Nephi and Moroni to zap the bad guys down and get their precious plates back? Were both Moroni and Nephi on vacation and they couldn't keep the plates in the angelic vault where they usually had them?

Then there were other times where they were supposedly in a box or under a cloth.

The whole thing is such an obvious bullshit story that it is truly painful at times to see adult Mormons going along with it.

I've heard better bullshit stories from drunken ignoramuses in bars. At least the drunken ignoramuses could catch themselves in the middle of saying something that contradicted what they had said just a few minutes earlier.

I mean when I was younger I tried really hard to believe because I love my family and I respect my TBM parents for so many reasons. But by the time I got into my early twenties, after having served a mission, it was just so obvious that it was a bullshit story made up by a low-budget bullshit artist named Joe Smith. I couldn't even try to believe anymore and I couldn't pretend.

It's like trying to believe in Santa Claus to make your parents and friends happy. But it's even worse. In this story, there are real guys in business suits who try to tell you that Santa Claus want you to pay TO THEM 10% of your income. And then it's even worse than worse when you find out that the guy who made up the original bullshit story made up similar bullshit stories so that he could get into the panties of underaged girls and married women.

I love my TBM friends and family members, but for the life of me I just don't see how they continue believing these absurd bullshit stories. But, as Hinckley might say, that's the miracle of it. It could be that this is the miracle that keeps Mormons going back for more. They tell themselves: "I can't believe that I actually believe this shit! There's no reason for believing this shit! It's the craziest shit I ever heard! It's a miracle that I believe this shit. That means it's holy shit and you have to believe holy shit. [cue the melody] And that's why I believe..."

BTW, pardon my French here. I don't usually like to use the bullshit word without deleting a vowel or something. But there really doesn't seem to be an adequate substitute adjective for describing the ridiculous lies made up by Joe Smith and his enablers.

Lucy Harris says that she saw the plates in a dream, shown to her by a personage, Lucy's Book, p 399.

Mary Whitmer is good too.

If anyone has references for Lucy Smith, Emma and Katherine Salsbury, please post them.

They are throwing stuff out there to see how it goes, if it's a success we can expect it to become part of the new whitewashed church history. Recently the lack of gender equality as bad PR has recieved the attention of those in charge. What if some women also saw the golden plates? They rewrite history, and if successful it will become part of the standard story, if not they will just deny it ever came in print in the first place, and when faced with evidence will come up lame excuses and cry "persecution".

http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/golden_plates.html

Hope the links works.

with their physical eyes. They were all hefters, dreamers or visioners.

Katherine Smith: Hefter

"Joseph allowed her to heft the package but not to see the gold plates, as the angel had forbidden him to show them at that period. She said they were very heavy."


Lucy Harris (as told by Joe's Mom Lucy Mack): Dreamer
(and only if you are willing to accept Joe's Mom's hearsay statement). Dear world, Lucy Harris dreamed about Joe's golden plates, so they must be real. signed, Joe's Mom.

"She [Mrs. Harris] related a very remarkable dream which she said she had during the night. It ran as follows. She said that a personage appeared to her, who told her, that as she had disputed the servant of the Lord, and said his word was not to be believed, and had also asked him many improper questions, she had done that which was not right in the sight of God. After which he said to her, 'Behold, here are the plates, look upon them and believe.' After giving us an account of her dream, she described the record very minutely. Yet after all this she still rejected the Gospel."

Emma Smith: Hefter and seer of napkins, cloths and other coverings.

"Answer. I did not attempt to handle the plates, other than I have told you, nor uncover them to look at them. I was satisfied that it was the work of God, and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so;"

Lucy Mack Smith: Hefter and handler

"I asked her [Lucy Smith] if she saw the plates. She said no, it was not for her to see them, but she hefted and handled them."

Mry Whitmer: Seer of the wrong angel and a magic backpack in a vision.


"I have heard my grandmother (Mary Musselman Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi. (She undoubtedly refers to Moroni, the angel who had the plates in charge.)

Pretty sad set of pathetically unsatisfactory testimonies all in all. What's worse is they are ALL from the same dumb-ass families that furnished the "official" witlesses whose testimonies helped launch the marketing of the Book of Mormon and all had a deep interest in the commercial success of the Book of Mormon.

I read "Mormonism Unveiled." There was no book made of gold plates. The few who dared look to see what was hidden in the box that Joseph made to put the plates in reported seeing nothing but bricks or sand. A close friend of Joseph named Peter Ingersoll said that Joseph himself told him there were no gold plates and that he made it all up.

Yup, sounds right to me. Lucy harris gets cussed out by an angel, then shown the plates so she'd mortage her farm. And then she delibrately defies god and burns the 116 pages. Like god's gonna let THAT slide. She'd have to be a very UNGODLY woman to thumb her nose at god after a direct revelation like that.

i call bull.

Oh and heaving around some heavy stuff and then saying you 'saw' the plates, is also bull. So there goes Emma & Catharine smith;s testimony.

article linked by Elizabeth above:

In the Lucy Mack Smith part:

"It’s hard to heft and handle something that doesn’t exist."

Ya, ya, that must be right. If it's heavy and it's wrapped up in a cloth...well that can ONLY mean one thing and one thing ONLY--it must be a set of golden plates that were written upon more than 1,400 years ago in the obscure Reformed Egyptian language. What else could it possibly be??? It's heavy. It's square. It's heftable. It's handleable. It's under a cloth because to look at it directly means instant death. How could it be anything OTHER THAN...Golden Freakin' Plates. It's an absolute certainty.

What a forkin' joke!