1) The treatment of gays--beginning with the forerunner to the Defense of Marriage Act in California (which was promptly overturned by the State Supreme Court), wherein members were encouraged to have secret illegal meetings on church property and then distribute flyers around town. Then the DOMA, then Prop 8, where the church hid behind a "coalition" of other concerned citizens and groups, but was the main financial contributor to the campaign. Do you know where that 12 million dollars came from? It came from members being shaken down by their Bishops, literally. I have two brothers in California who were both called in their Bishops' offices (separate wards, different areas) and told the Prophet said they must donate money to serve the cause. One brother was called in twice, because he refused to help the first time. His Bishop just laid on a bigger guilt trip, and a few carefully-guised threats, and, suddenly, my brother coughs up more money for the cause. My in-laws posted yes on 8 signs in their yard, and waved signs on street corners EVEN THOUGH THEIR OWN GAY SON WAS LIVING WITH THEM AT THE TIME!! It completely devastated him. And all because they bought into the fear tactics perpetuated by the church that if gays could get married, our preschoolers would be taught it. TAUGHT WHAT? That it's legal???? That you can marry the person you love??? No, their real fear is that children will be TAUGHT TO BE GAY. They still think it's a choice or a learned response. How ignorant can you get? Of course, how else can you make gayness fit into god's "perfect plan"? If the church were smart, it would consider gay marriage a civil issue and instead push for greater separation between church and state--i.e. "Fine, gays can get married, but we don't have to do it here, and we don't have to have them as members." BUT, no the church just has to CONTROL what everyone does--to protect society for its own good. Um, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO AGENCY??????

2)The Mormon concept of God--loving father/puppet-master setting you up for whatever he wants you to be. I got so tired of people telling me, "It's part of his plan. He knows better than you..." Then what's the point of me even trying if God's gonna do whatever the hell he wants to anyway?

3)Nothing more than you can bear/weaknesses into strengths concept--sounds great in theory, but is absolutely disastrous in practice. Especially when, like us, you are dealing with a bipolar child. For years we were told to try harder, to do more ("are you reading your scriptures? do you go to the temple?"). So we were killing ourselves trying to do everything perfectly, and nothing's getting better. No one ever said, "You know, something doesn't seem right here, you probably need professionally help." No, it was more like, "The answer's here, you're just not looking hard enough." All those years wasted trying to unlock god's magical aid, wasted because we bought into the lies, "God sent him to you because he knew you'd be best for him. He doesn't give you anything you can't handle." He was 12 when we finally pulled our heads out of our asses and got help. HE'S BIPOLAR. HE HAS A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE IN HIS BRAIN. NO AMOUNT OF CHURCH MUMBO JUMBO IS GOING TO FIX THAT. THAT REQUIRES ONGOING CONTROLLED MEDICATION AND COUNSELING. It's as simple as that.

Wow, that felt good to get out.

So, what are your top 3 issues?

1. Joe's lying and hypocrisy
2. Joe's and Brigham's stealing my ancestor and my family's admiration of this
3. Free agency - the fact that a god would test a creature or creation for worthiness for that god

These things are just messed up. A super guy who preaches honest and then lies about his polygamy. A Forever Family I'm in that holds up their pedigree like it was something special when it is just wife stealing. A god I should worship who wants me to be on the hamster wheel of life to have something special when I'm dead.

But these aren't as much against the current morg. I have a whole other bunch of issues with it. The traditional/historical morg is what really gets me.

How "firm" a foundation indeed!

When I finally came to accept my ex is GAY and that is WONDERFUL--that he didn't have to change or control his feelings or whatever--what a relief. I tried so hard to be perfect for so long I could just scream.

Then so many other things finally made sense.

Mine were

1-The "sin" of being gay.My ex was a pillar of the community, tenured BYU prof and former bishop the day before he came out...scum of the earth the day after.

2-Second class treatment of mormon women.

3-Final nail in the coffin...learning the BoA was all made up with pictures altered by JS to fit his "storyline". I was done.

What that snide little statement does is to INVALIDATE the person's pain and suffering. It says, “You have NO RIGHT to feel that way (since HF never gives us more than we can bear.)”

A possible response: “Speak for YOURSELF. If you have never been given more than you can bear, then you're in no position to judge someone else!”

1. The lies

2. The fabrications

3. The deceptions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 12:12PM by wine country girl.

#1...the inefficacy of prayer; lack of spiritual witness or confirmation; total absence of God's help with anything.

#2...the literally life-destroying rape of self-esteem for being classified as "next to murder" without any eternal perspective or real understanding of how being gay fits into the "plan of salvation."

#3...pursuant to investigating the usual gamut of other issues like BoA, DNA, BoM edits, JS/church history etc., the clincher was seeing the YouTube clip of Gord Hinckley on Larry King...for me, that was the defining moment when the last shreds of hoped-for belief just melted away.

I guess those would be the top three...there's just so many to choose from.

Well, I only investigated but here is my issues at the time I investigated TSCC:

1: I didn't believe in God, so I couldn't believe in any god based myths. I tried to believe but I just couldn't, non of it made any sense.

2: When I investigated, they said I would get my answers after I was baptized. I wouldn't get baptized unless I believed in TSCC and I couldn't believe in TSCC unless I had the answers.

3: I realized that the questions I was actually looking to have answered, why I felt I was so different from those around me, was not going to be answered by religion. Going to church only made me feel more different.

Now my issues with TSCC is their trying to push their version of morality on me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 01:10PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now my issues with TSCC is their trying to push
> their version of morality on me.

I don't understand why you investigated or why those 3 reasons even attempt to answer the intent of the post topic but...

I think the issues you have now are what is wanted.

(In order of awareness of these issues)

1. Racism. (This is why I left at 18. TSCC had no excuse good enough for this.)

2. Sexism. (Amazing that, as a woman, I didn't even see this one first! How indoctrinated is that?)

3. Homophobia. (By this time, at least it wasn't a surprise.)

So... in sum: Bigotry.

HeyNonny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Racism.
> 2. Sexism.
> 3. Homophobia.

Still big problems in society at large. They are only aggravated by the Mormon Jesus people.

People being people, versus sustained prophets, seers and revelators being no better than the people being people. So, I think those are big church issues in addition to the systemic humanity ones. It nullifies their claim to divinity.

jpt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People being people, versus sustained prophets,
> seers and revelators being no better than the
> people being people. So, I think those are big
> church issues in addition to the systemic humanity
> ones. It nullifies their claim to divinity.

It does indeed!

Yes, indeed. I don't solely blame the Mormons for these ills- only for their part in perpetuating them with their doctrine. Bigotry remains my main (and top 3, lol) issue(s) with TSCC.

1. Temple endowment changes
2. Book of Abraham (ie Egyptian pagan funeral scrolls)
3. "That which is true, is not always useful.."

apatheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3. "That which is true, is not always useful.."


This is one of my favorites. It covers so much in so little.

1. The BofM's claim to be written about and to America's indigenous people.

2. DNA studies find no haplotype evidence of Near Eastern migrations to America before Columbus.

3. The LDS Church quietly stops talking about Lamanites.

You guys are amazing!! Thanks for your honest responses. I, too, have many, many reasons for losing my faith...but for sure homophobia ranks the highest. It made my gay brother-in-law depressed and suicidal knowing he could not be what god wanted him to be. I remember when he was 13 (20 years ago, now), he called us crying saying he was afraid he was going to hell. That was 6 years before he officially came out. When I think of the what he went through--the self-loathing, the unanswered fasts and prayers to be straight, and his pleading with god to be "normal", it just makes me sick. He also has a gay cousin and I have two gay cousins as well. To marginalize and target them the way the church has is morally reprehensible.

I am a huge advocate for gay marriage and am more than happy to be excommunicated over it. I will never regret the love and acceptance I feel for my brother-in-law and his partner, or my support for stable, monogamous gay relationships. Sorry, hope that's not bordering on preachy.

1. predatory nature of JS with young girls
2. polyandry
3. BoA by the "hand of Abraham" according to JS, when in fact, was a common funerary text

1. The lies

2. Sexual and emotional abuse, blaming the victims and protecting and covering up for the perpetrators; / polygamy

3. Misogyny, racism, and homophobia

It prevents people from fully developing critical thinking skills. By this I mean it requires people to make the facts fit a preconceived conclusion. Everything must be interpreted to support what the religion teaches.

It should be the opposite process to determine the truth of things. The data/evidence should drive the investigation and conclusion. The conclusion should be one that incorporates all the evidence and not just the cherry picked ones. For example the process of testimony repetition does not constitute knowledge.

Once people are in the practice of accepting a conclusion given to them by an authority figure (or holy writ), they cannot consistently evaluate facts and draw appropriate conclusions that most closely reflect reality.

The second issue for me is the colossal waste of time spent out of a person's life just repeating nonsense. Life is precious and short. All the resources sucked up by the church seem like such a waste to me now.

The third issue for me is the regressive perspective that keeps people from embracing change- like civil rights issues, treatment of women, considering measures to control population, protect the environment, etc. Religion is all about keeping things like the good old days and perpetuating itself.

Your #3 is spot on with me and my "tumor" called Homosexuality. I've known I was attracted to the same sex before I was even ten years old! My teenage years were spent DEVOTED to everything and anything Church related. Some of my oldest siblings (8 in all!) that knew would tell me that I must not have been trying, praying or fasting hard enough. So I tried beyond trying! So many days were spent depressed, crying all alone in my room because the feelings that were "so bad" would not go away. Nobody in my family was there for me (and all of them are such grand and worthy temple recommend holders now...ironic...such Christlike people...) Even having many sessions with the LDS therapist at LDS family Services in Provo who was the "best in curing Homosexuals", was an idiot and proved to be a huge waste of the $$$ my widowed Mom didn't even have. It got so bad because no matter what the "tumor" wouldn't leave! I even contemplated suicide so many times. I was so Churchy that I would check out stacks and stacks of LDS books from the library, watch Church movies all of the time (many times on weekend nights by myself!), and was gung-ho about seminary, EFY, church activities, etc. I was trying to just do anything to be "good" and looking back my heart was genuinely in the right place! Now I see all Mormons as unfortunate fools. I am glad that I hung on to my life rather then committing suicide.

After my "honorable" 2 year (waste of time) mission (and yep feelings of sexual attraction and desire for a man still as strong as ever) I stopped going because of what I read on my mission during the many hours spent reading and studying church history books in the Church/Institute Libraries and discovering things that were C R A Z Y as well as indescrepencies in so many things the church teaches! And this was all from Church Published books (which you will not find at Deseret Book anymore, and if you do they've been edited profusely so the members don't realize the truth.) I can't stand behind something that completely lies like that (based on a lie in itself) and in addition who told a purely loving, innocent, sweet young man that he was bad and evil for having the natural feelings he had. Oh and all my "good" Orem/Provo LDS friends from growing up? 98% of them stopped contact once they found out how "evil" I was. I haven't changed much. I still don't drink, do drugs or "party". I don't have tattoos.(And I don't judge anybody that does any of that either I'm just bringing that up to make a point!) I just happen to have a loving and extremely satisfying 4 year partnership with the man I love and he makes my heart extremely happy.

Now who's truly the evil ones here? I think anybody with the ability to think for themselves can figure that out.

I am glad you have found your way out and have a partner.

1) Joseph Smith

2) Joseph Smith

3) Joseph Smith

The Mormon Church is the direct result of Joseph Smith and what he did or claimed to do. Either he was a man (or boy) picked by God to do what he claims he was called to do and organize the true Church of Jesus Christ back to the earth or he was a fraud. By studying the full life of Joseph Smith along with all his claims from all available sources and evidences, it becomes obvious to all logical rational people who want to uncover the real truths about this man that he most surely was a fraud. Therefore the Mormon Church is not something that I want to be a member of as its teachings and principles come from this man.