Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
While I DEFEND the Mall... I think it's a Great Idea for people to live & work (or, live & retire) in the central city!
Services are easier & cheaper to provide in high-density areas, so it's more enviro-friendly!
Also, in a culture where we're dependent on autos, transit is also more economical in central cities.
Hopefully Less travel to shopping, entertainment, and employment from your residence.
Where to live is & should be: A Matter of personal, individual CHOICE!
'of course' this Doesn't mean that it's up to ChurchCo to do it; that's another issue.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2011 02:37PM by guynoirprivateeye.
Services are easier & cheaper to provide in high-density areas, so it's more enviro-friendly!
Also, in a culture where we're dependent on autos, transit is also more economical in central cities.
Hopefully Less travel to shopping, entertainment, and employment from your residence.
Where to live is & should be: A Matter of personal, individual CHOICE!
'of course' this Doesn't mean that it's up to ChurchCo to do it; that's another issue.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2011 02:37PM by guynoirprivateeye.
Interesting....a million dollar condo in downtown in the worse part of town, overlooking the park that is the day and night time hangout for the homeless across the street from the shelter. I'll take the suburbs....
get her done Wrote:
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> Interesting....a million dollar condo in downtown
> in the worse part of town, overlooking the park
> that is the day and night time hangout for the
> homeless across the street from the shelter. I'll
> take the suburbs....
How long before TSCC pushes to have the homeless run out of the park? Or even buys the park and shuts it off from ordinary people?
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> Interesting....a million dollar condo in downtown
> in the worse part of town, overlooking the park
> that is the day and night time hangout for the
> homeless across the street from the shelter. I'll
> take the suburbs....
How long before TSCC pushes to have the homeless run out of the park? Or even buys the park and shuts it off from ordinary people?
There's already a mall and condos at the Gateway.
It was built without blackmailing people who want to go to their relatives' weddings.
It was built without blackmailing people who want to go to their relatives' weddings.
has improved Pioneer Park quite a bit. Still not a place you'd want to spend much time but no longer a place you wouldn't walk through in the daytime.
I live in a condo that is about 10 minutes by car from the mall. It is nicer and larger than the condos down town and I am paying a heck of a lot less than 1/2 mill. Also, I have quiet, a nice patio, grass, a playgound and pool/hot tub.. Why on earth would I want to pay a lot more to look at the temple or a mall?
you will NEVER make it as a MORmON with an attitude like that !
what you are talking about is great... if you have the same genes as ants and you like have other ppl crawl over the top of you.... like ants do to each other
as some one who would rather have a trailer house in vernon utah than a condo in down town SLC, or anywhere else in Salt Lake county for that matter, I think you are sick. but feel free to go ahead and live in your cozy pigeon hole condo's & apartments. I am all for that for you.
it makes alot room for others who cant stand that insanity.
JMO.
as some one who would rather have a trailer house in vernon utah than a condo in down town SLC, or anywhere else in Salt Lake county for that matter, I think you are sick. but feel free to go ahead and live in your cozy pigeon hole condo's & apartments. I am all for that for you.
it makes alot room for others who cant stand that insanity.
JMO.
its nice that you would rather live in a trailer..... s'kool... but to call someone sick cause they like a somewhat urban life....is pretty judgmental.... this world needs all kinds of people and so what if someone likes the fact that cars are not needed as much or that she may not need a car at all.... jus sayin
bignevermo Wrote:
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> its nice that you would rather live in a
> trailer..... s'kool... but to call someone sick
> cause they like a somewhat urban life....is pretty
> judgmental.... this world needs all kinds of
> people and so what if someone likes the fact that
> cars are not needed as much or that she may not
> need a car at all.... jus sayin
No, the thing that is nice is the fact that certain ppl want to live in condo complex hive, and that having ppl all around them bouncing off of them like billiard balls makes them feel secure. That way those ppl can live in the high density areas that maked them feel so good, and not take up so much of the open space that sick ppl like me cherish so much, or so pathologically as the case may be.
I love the ppl commuting on bicycles because they are saving gas .... that I might want to use. I'd love to ride a bike to work, but there is no way I'll do it if it means sharing the road with the maniacs in automobiles known as utah Drivers.
I love ppl who ride bicycles, but they are crazy/ sick.
I wish I could feel cozy in a condo but I dont
I wish I could feel safe on bicycle but I dont
give me a little credit,
I closed with JMO as in "just my opinion"
NOT with "I know I am right & I know I am better than you! "
-------------------------------------------------------
> its nice that you would rather live in a
> trailer..... s'kool... but to call someone sick
> cause they like a somewhat urban life....is pretty
> judgmental.... this world needs all kinds of
> people and so what if someone likes the fact that
> cars are not needed as much or that she may not
> need a car at all.... jus sayin
No, the thing that is nice is the fact that certain ppl want to live in condo complex hive, and that having ppl all around them bouncing off of them like billiard balls makes them feel secure. That way those ppl can live in the high density areas that maked them feel so good, and not take up so much of the open space that sick ppl like me cherish so much, or so pathologically as the case may be.
I love the ppl commuting on bicycles because they are saving gas .... that I might want to use. I'd love to ride a bike to work, but there is no way I'll do it if it means sharing the road with the maniacs in automobiles known as utah Drivers.
I love ppl who ride bicycles, but they are crazy/ sick.
I wish I could feel cozy in a condo but I dont
I wish I could feel safe on bicycle but I dont
give me a little credit,
I closed with JMO as in "just my opinion"
NOT with "I know I am right & I know I am better than you! "
then you should be a proponent of high density urban living. After all, where do subsequent generations build their lovely little homes with white picket fences?
In the quickly disappearing open space, that's where.
In the quickly disappearing open space, that's where.
The challenge is not proving that the Mall is beneficial to SLC.
It's proving that the Mall is the most important thing to be spending God's money on, that is proving difficult...
It's proving that the Mall is the most important thing to be spending God's money on, that is proving difficult...
It sure was an "inispired" move, given the economy tanking. Plus it seems they are having problems selling the units due to shoddy workmanship.
The morg does not care one iota about creating an urban center and saving gas and such. This is all window dressing for their seat of power. They saw that downtown SLC was on it was to shitsville and decided to remodel it the way that they think they deserve.
The morg does not care one iota about creating an urban center and saving gas and such. This is all window dressing for their seat of power. They saw that downtown SLC was on it was to shitsville and decided to remodel it the way that they think they deserve.
Sure, it's great that they decided to reinvigorate downtown, but why is a church involved in building malls and condos? Why did they buy at the top of the market and sell in a recession? Why build a mall when there is a website called "deadmalls.com" that highlights the decline of malls in American society?
If the LDS Church were a church and not a religiously themed corporation seeking profit, they could have revitalized downtown by building cultural attractions. They could have helped out the homeless to get them out of the park. They could have built a library, school, or other educational facility to improve the economic prospects of those downtown.
Instead, LDS, Inc. has one goal in mind: making more money. Everything they do, from missionary work to building temples, has the goal of enriching the corporation. This time, their greed was misguided and they are going to lose billions, which we see from their cost-cutting measures towards member programs. If I were still Mormon, I'd be upset being asked to scrub toilets while they build a $3 billion white elephant in SLC.
If the LDS Church were a church and not a religiously themed corporation seeking profit, they could have revitalized downtown by building cultural attractions. They could have helped out the homeless to get them out of the park. They could have built a library, school, or other educational facility to improve the economic prospects of those downtown.
Instead, LDS, Inc. has one goal in mind: making more money. Everything they do, from missionary work to building temples, has the goal of enriching the corporation. This time, their greed was misguided and they are going to lose billions, which we see from their cost-cutting measures towards member programs. If I were still Mormon, I'd be upset being asked to scrub toilets while they build a $3 billion white elephant in SLC.
expansion of the Leonardo Museum and the building of the Utah Performing Arts Center, as well as a new federal courthouse. There's a lot to the project other than City Creek. Frankly, we already have a large, underused library downtown and a fantastic facility in Abravanel Hall. I don't care one way or the other about City Creek but it has to be an improvement over what was in that space previously and I'm excited about the other improvements coming to downtown.
The LDS church IS a business. No rational person in this town sees it as anything but a business. If they want to spend their money improving their own shabby space, let them have at it, in my opinion.
The LDS church IS a business. No rational person in this town sees it as anything but a business. If they want to spend their money improving their own shabby space, let them have at it, in my opinion.
Exactly. Even if you could prove that this mall would be the biggest profit making enterprize in history that's not the point. "Is this the best use of tithing dollars?" should be the only consideration.
than dozens of McTemples necrodunking 24/7.
Hell, anything does.
Hell, anything does.
they make money. First, most temples are funded by the members in the area of the proposed temple along with other rich donors.
Then having a temple nearby forces more members in the area to renew their temple recommend. its brilliant.
Then having a temple nearby forces more members in the area to renew their temple recommend. its brilliant.
It's a great way to store money where it appreciates yet is not identified and taxed. And because it is "secret" the fact that it is empty most of the time does not matter.
Owning a community center size building dotting the landscape will be very handy to use as mid tier distribution centers when it becomes necessary to distribute food and water when the electrical grid/computer/distribution systems go down.
Some believe there are emergency supplies stored there already.
ANagrammy
Owning a community center size building dotting the landscape will be very handy to use as mid tier distribution centers when it becomes necessary to distribute food and water when the electrical grid/computer/distribution systems go down.
Some believe there are emergency supplies stored there already.
ANagrammy
because it runs against the experience of so many other cities.
Seattle is lauded as a terrific model of successful revitalization of a seedy downtown area. They used the arm-of-flesh scientific studies which showed what most of us in the working class already know--the core of a successful, vital downtown is work staff who live nearby. Servers, bouncers, taxi drivers, hotel maids, maintenance, office workers--the lower-paid infrastructure SPEND the money they earn right downtown.
Hundreds a day take a break, buy a cup of coffee, go to lunch,bar-hopping, and spend/spend/spend in the local stores, day in and day out. Maybe they go to Vegas on the weekend, but their purchasing power keeps the lights on, you might say.
They also keep the city safe because they live there and have chlldren. Don't think that mother isn't going to report a drug dealer on her corner, or a stinking mess in the alley behind her apartment. The elite don't care--they have the limo pull into the curved drive so they don't even have to see it. And their children never walk anywhere.
You have to give these single mothers and working poor some decent housing to attract them to live downtown, so Seattle fixed up several broken down hotels and converted them to subsidized low income housing. A year later, some brilliant developers noticed the area was looking promising, so they bought some bankrupted condos and redesigned them as special interest apartment units. I remember one that was fitness-oriented. It had a couple of exercise places, one regular, one all pilates and yoga, plus massage, plus stores that sell fitness stuff, like a mini-mall with fruit juice bar and natural food restaurant.
Another one was an artists' lifestyle with lofts so people could live and work in the same place. In their lobby, it was a big rotating art gallery and businesses that sold art supplies, frames, etc. My girlfriend lived there until she got a slot in Pikes Place Market.
Plenty of other developers have come in with business-from-home locations with secretarial services and copy shop on the ground floor.
The bible says you build a building with a strong foundation. The LDS, Inc, believes that they know what the foundation of society is--faithful LDS millionaires.
We know they are wrong and it will definitely be fun to see the uninspired and arrogant Mormon elite puzzled by the fact that their judgment is poor and others, less "worthy" called it correctly.
Won't that Great and Spacious Mall make a terrific farmer's market when the rich from "around the world" aren't enough to keep the lights on?
Anagrammy
Seattle is lauded as a terrific model of successful revitalization of a seedy downtown area. They used the arm-of-flesh scientific studies which showed what most of us in the working class already know--the core of a successful, vital downtown is work staff who live nearby. Servers, bouncers, taxi drivers, hotel maids, maintenance, office workers--the lower-paid infrastructure SPEND the money they earn right downtown.
Hundreds a day take a break, buy a cup of coffee, go to lunch,bar-hopping, and spend/spend/spend in the local stores, day in and day out. Maybe they go to Vegas on the weekend, but their purchasing power keeps the lights on, you might say.
They also keep the city safe because they live there and have chlldren. Don't think that mother isn't going to report a drug dealer on her corner, or a stinking mess in the alley behind her apartment. The elite don't care--they have the limo pull into the curved drive so they don't even have to see it. And their children never walk anywhere.
You have to give these single mothers and working poor some decent housing to attract them to live downtown, so Seattle fixed up several broken down hotels and converted them to subsidized low income housing. A year later, some brilliant developers noticed the area was looking promising, so they bought some bankrupted condos and redesigned them as special interest apartment units. I remember one that was fitness-oriented. It had a couple of exercise places, one regular, one all pilates and yoga, plus massage, plus stores that sell fitness stuff, like a mini-mall with fruit juice bar and natural food restaurant.
Another one was an artists' lifestyle with lofts so people could live and work in the same place. In their lobby, it was a big rotating art gallery and businesses that sold art supplies, frames, etc. My girlfriend lived there until she got a slot in Pikes Place Market.
Plenty of other developers have come in with business-from-home locations with secretarial services and copy shop on the ground floor.
The bible says you build a building with a strong foundation. The LDS, Inc, believes that they know what the foundation of society is--faithful LDS millionaires.
We know they are wrong and it will definitely be fun to see the uninspired and arrogant Mormon elite puzzled by the fact that their judgment is poor and others, less "worthy" called it correctly.
Won't that Great and Spacious Mall make a terrific farmer's market when the rich from "around the world" aren't enough to keep the lights on?
Anagrammy
Downtown SLC and Temple Square are being dolled up to host the elite of the Church who visit SLC and other visitors. It is the LDS Vatican.
For rank and file LDS it will be the place to go after visiting Temple Square where you can drop another chunk of change at Deseret Books.
From the store list I've seen much of it will not appeal to the cost-conscious LDS middle class family with 5 kids.
Tiffany & Co., Brooks Brothers, Porsche Design, Michael Kors, etc. There will be I'm sure a huge Deseret Books though.
Like Disney the rides and attractions are only part of the take. The food and souvenirs round out the picture. Temple Square = attractions....mall = gift shop.
What's the LDs equivalent of Mickey Mouse ears....? A Moroni Trumpet?
For rank and file LDS it will be the place to go after visiting Temple Square where you can drop another chunk of change at Deseret Books.
From the store list I've seen much of it will not appeal to the cost-conscious LDS middle class family with 5 kids.
Tiffany & Co., Brooks Brothers, Porsche Design, Michael Kors, etc. There will be I'm sure a huge Deseret Books though.
Like Disney the rides and attractions are only part of the take. The food and souvenirs round out the picture. Temple Square = attractions....mall = gift shop.
What's the LDs equivalent of Mickey Mouse ears....? A Moroni Trumpet?
...the hardest part is to change the preferences of people who love low-density living. That's particularly true when the majority of people you're trying to convince have children.
Salt Lake Valley isn't a good place to try to make downtown living work. Viable downtowns depend on single people and empty nesters with plenty of free time and money. They depend on a sizable population that shops a lot, dines out a lot, drinks a lot, consumes a lot of live entertainment. They also want to live near the job. I don't think SLC has the necessary critical mass of either the right kind of consumers or the things to interest them.
Salt Lake Valley isn't a good place to try to make downtown living work. Viable downtowns depend on single people and empty nesters with plenty of free time and money. They depend on a sizable population that shops a lot, dines out a lot, drinks a lot, consumes a lot of live entertainment. They also want to live near the job. I don't think SLC has the necessary critical mass of either the right kind of consumers or the things to interest them.
already are mostly bohemians and professionals, whether single or with small families. There aren't many Mormons with large families and tight wallets left in the Avenues, Sugarhouse, or even Harvard-Yale - they all moved to the suburbs a decade ago. Honestly, I think that what is going in at City Creek is far better suited to the people who actually live in and near downtown SLC than to the suburbanites the church hoped to attract with the space's previous mix of businesses.
Also, no doubt the condos are expensive but given what people are willing to spend to live in outdated houses with plaster walls and no yards in the Avenues I would not bet against them selling IF the real estate market ever picks up.
Also, no doubt the condos are expensive but given what people are willing to spend to live in outdated houses with plaster walls and no yards in the Avenues I would not bet against them selling IF the real estate market ever picks up.
The Morons abandoned downtown in the post-war era and went to the suburbs. The city itself is maybe 50/50 and the demographic for non-Mormons tends toward two income families and a child or two (if any at all).
The 2 biggest employers in Utah are LDS, Inc. and the University of Utah. Folks who come in from out of state to work at the U figure out pretty quickly they don't want to live in the 'burbs among the Mormons, so they stay in the city.
And as a taxpayer in SLC, I don't have the luxury of hoping for this project to fail. I hope it is successful. We'll see.
The 2 biggest employers in Utah are LDS, Inc. and the University of Utah. Folks who come in from out of state to work at the U figure out pretty quickly they don't want to live in the 'burbs among the Mormons, so they stay in the city.
And as a taxpayer in SLC, I don't have the luxury of hoping for this project to fail. I hope it is successful. We'll see.
I should have reminded that I'm a retired electrician, that construction $ ripples thru the community.
SMutt: your stmnt is thoughtful; is it backed by census/demographic data, or is it (only) your off-hand observation?
I think it would be difficult to find a big-city mayor who doesn't want a viable/vibrant downtown area. a CBD (central business district) that dries up in the evenings/weekends is a drain on energy; living in a condo will please lots of people, including those who don't enjoy house & landscape maintenance, etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2011 05:17PM by guynoirprivateeye.
SMutt: your stmnt is thoughtful; is it backed by census/demographic data, or is it (only) your off-hand observation?
I think it would be difficult to find a big-city mayor who doesn't want a viable/vibrant downtown area. a CBD (central business district) that dries up in the evenings/weekends is a drain on energy; living in a condo will please lots of people, including those who don't enjoy house & landscape maintenance, etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2011 05:17PM by guynoirprivateeye.