When my father was alive and before I officially left the church I told my dad the BY gave a talk in which he stated that God came down from heaven and literally had sex with Mary to create JC. He vehemently denied that and would not accept it in any way. This was before the internet so I went out and found a copy of the Journal of Discourses and showed him where it was in black and white.

He simply said that it wasn't formal doctrine and things like this were why the church didn't recognize the JoD any longer.

Yep, that is why they don't, because the old profits taught crap that would shock modern morgbots to their roots if they knew that that crap was taught back when the church was young. But BY did say that in a conference talk and it was published and he said it as the profit along with many other very ridiculous things and yet those poor brain washed blind people just can't see what a farce the church really is.

Other shocking doctrines taught by BY and the other old geezers:

People living on the moon dressed like Quakers that live 1000 years.

Blood atonement.

Feel free to add to the list for any lurking morgbots to enjoy.

(IF you accept the premise) Kinda Sorta makes sense...

therefore, Jesus was 1/2 mortal, 1/2 Divine
whether or not to die (on the cross) was His Choice.

O.K.

'Mary was still a virgin' because she (get this) hadn't had sex with any mortals.

got it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2011 02:00AM by guynoirprivateeye.

I've run into this misconception in Mormon literature before, and I wonder how prevalent it is. It reflects a remarkable misunderstanding of Christianity, which holds that Jesus was both completely human and completely God.

To me, one of the most amazing things about Mormonism is how mainstream it appears on the surface, and then somebody says something that hits like a frying pan upside the head. My favorite example is the Mormon film "The Errand of Angels," when two sister missionaries are standing on a hill overlooking Vienna and all its beautiful old churches, and one says to the other, "And to think that almost no one here has ever heard the gospel."

This is part of Mormonism's biggest problem: Its claim to being led by prophets.

The church can never repudiate what a previous prophet has said without either abandoning the assertion that he was a prophet or saying something absurd such as "he was a prophet, but he was wrong." The only alternatives are to either support what the prophet said or stay quiet and hope everyone forgets about it.

The teaching that God had a sexual relationship with Mary in order to father Jesus Christ is STILL the official explanation taught in the church today.

The real evil nature of the teaching is rooted in the concept of the preexistence and the teaching that God the Father and his wife (wives) procreated all the spirits of every human being on the Father's planet. God and one of his wives procreated the spirit of Mary, so Mary is the spirit daughter of the Heavenly Father.

The problem for Mormons is that Mary is the literal daughter of God the Father, and he had literal sexual relations with his own daugher in order to procreate the temporal body of Jesus Christ. In Mormon theology, God the Father engaged in an incestuous relationship with his own daughter, and all because he is not a creator-god and could not create a body for the spirit of Jesus Christ to occupy apart from a sexual act.

Mormons praise a prophet who was a pedophile, sexual predator, bigamist, polygamist, was part of polyandrous relationships and married mothers and daughters at the same time. They worship a god of their own creation who is an incestuous adulterer. For the Mormon, god was once a man, so it is no wonder that he acts like one as well.

Under our laws, when a person in unequal position to another compels intercourse, it is rape--when a partner has no real choice in the matter except to acquiesce.

The theory that Mary had intercourse with God is simply an ancient view of ownership where women were literally the property of men. It never occurred to men in these eras that once a man establishes legitimate rights to a woman, he could with her as he pleased.

Since God owned the world, of course he could take what was his, including mortal virgins, at least to the understanding of men at the time.

But if God exists and has an eternal perspective, God would know that view was wrong and that humankind would evolve to have a better understanding of fundamental human rights, including the fundamental right to choose one's own mates.

two people are 'never' of exactly status;

Rape is a FORCIBLE act, not rich/poor, tall/short, etc.

get it Straight, Please



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2011 01:54AM by guynoirprivateeye.

Have mobots fallen in their Bring'em Young worship? Do they realize (but ignore) that he was blood thirsty dictator who screwed any woman he wanted?

I guess I don't think it's that big of an issue. I mean if people think he's the son of God, then God is his father, it kind of makes sense.

A bishop once told me - he only knows of one way to make a baby.

There's far more troubling issues in Mormonism.

just sayin'

I don't see the difference between what mormons believe and what x-ians believe:

On one hand, god inseminated mary.

On the other hand, god inseminated mary.

On one hand, mary's eggs were fertilized.

On the other hand, mary's eggs were fertilized.

On one hand, god is jesus' father.

On the other hand, god is jesus' father.

Whether a literal penis was stuck inside Mary's vagina, or whether some kind of magic sperm was magically placed inside Mary's egg, the end result is exactly the same. Mary's father got her pregnant. It's incest either way.

Unless you don't believe that we're all god's children, of course.

In the Christian belief there was no sex involved.The idea of God engaging in sex would be kind of off putting to many Christians which is probably why Mormons are hush hush about this, Moeons belive God is the father of our spirits. Christians believe the spirit is created at conception.I don't see that the Christian idea is literally incest since God is not Mary's literal father and there was no sex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2011 05:08PM by bona dea.

I don't disagree that the idea of god having sex with a teenage girl would be off-putting to most christians and I completely agree that this is why kolobians try to keep it on the down-low. However, jesus himself said god was the father and that we were all his children. If god is spirit, and Mary's spirit was conceived at birth, and god is the ultimate creator of everything (since people can't create spirit), then no matter how his magical sperm is introduced into mary's egg it is still a father procreating with his daughter. There's just no orgasm involved.

Jesus never claimed that he was born of a virgin. He claimed God as his father, but he also claimed that God was the father of us all. Did he intend that to set him apart? I don't know, but I kind of doubt it. I think the virgin birth legend came later and was the result of pagan influence.

Yep, knocked her up and split town, leaving her to deal with it!

Such ethical behaviour...

That's why mormons don't talk about Heavenly Mother: God came down and had sex with a teenager, and His wife was so pissed off that she packed her bags and went to stay with her cousin in Vacaville.

Okay, maybe a bit. But, that doctrine was taught to us missionaries at a zone conference in the mid 70's, so it has been reiterated recently. True, it was initiated when "the church was young," and I'd bet it's still going on today with the people who are embedded enough for the "meat."

This is the story I heard in the early 1970s.

Doesn't it make God a Joe Smith-like lecher, since Mary was betrothed or married to Joseph?

...and Mary was his Spirit Child, so it really was incest according to their own description of Heavenly Father and his household, and they can't say no because the biblical laws against it are post-Garden of Eden but pre-God sneakin' out the back door....

Other Xtians say the Holy Ghost did it, so it was some magical hi-tech test tube mumbo-jumbo non sexy-time impregnation.

I told that to some missionary boys one day and they both turned totally red in the face and yelled at me, "That's not true! Brigham Young never said that! The Church doesn't believe that!" I had a print-out handy of the B.Y. quotes and other authorities quotes and handed it to them as they stomped out in a huff. Kind of like the time other missionaries didn't konw the Book of Abraham stuff. Don't they know that some people actually know stuff about TSCC? Why are they so ill-prepared when they are sent out?

Straight from the filthy mind of Brigham Young. The "doctrine" tells us more about Brigham Young than anything else. Two of the main problems with incest are the inherently unequal power in such a relationship and the limitations it places on life choices. The power a parent has over a child is obvious. What's not often talked about is that a healthy being needs to experience new ways of thinking and being in the world separate from parents/relatives in order to individuate, form a sense of self and experience the world from a new place. Incest places limitations on the growth of the individual in myriad ways.

So here comes Brigham Young, notoriously unconcerned with the well being of any of the women in his harem, including his own daughters, and unconcerned about his power over these women. From his world view, women are useful objects. So he comes up with the reductionist idea that God must have had sex with Mary to become the father of Christ. It makes perfect sense to him because he is a simplistic, morally un-evolved, opportunistic, hedonistic person with no insight into the needs of women or children or the healthy relationship that men and fathers have toward wives and daughters.

I remember rationalizing this as a TBM:

"Oh, God can do anything. He can command his holy immortal semen to withdraw from his resurrected epididymis and wiggle its way into Mary's vagina without sexual contact, and she would be asleep."

Uh huh.

Hinduism is full of women taking trips in boats where the oarsman turns out to be a god visiting the earth and a beam of light comes from his palm (or from heaven) and bingo, she's pregnant. But still a virgin.

Catholics maintain that she died a virgin, abstaining because of her holiness. They do not mention, however, how Jesus got out of her womb leaving her a virgin. They did not acknowledge him having any siblings, which underlines the fact that they felt sex was contaminating for a woman and lowered her status.

Mary's status had to stay high so she could replace Diana in the hearts of the Greeks.

Anagrammy

a) mormons dodge so many of the 'doctrines' that make them Mormons; you couldn't get a MoLeader to touch these things with a Seer Stone!

b) Mainstream, church-going mormons are oblivious to most all of them (Planned-Intentional, No Doubt)

c) Investigators aren't told, NOSIREE!

d) ALLOF THE ABOVE.

“... I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.... I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ.”

(Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p.238)



“This matter was a little changed in the case of the Savior of the world, the Son of the living God. The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but MARY the wife of Joseph HAD ANOTHER HUSBAND. On the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father”.

(Journal of Discourses 11 p268, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2011 07:20AM by zeezrom.

"I will go down.... 'n tap dat!"

Ron

in either Jesus the Christ or The Articles of Faith.

Sacred adultery. Hmmm...