http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50309838-78/lds-mcmullin-conference-evergreen.html.csp

More sweeping us under the carpet. Man this makes me angry!

The Mormon church told us for years to marry away the gay, that it's a choice, that we can change. Now even the idiots that run the church are starting to realize that (even after electro-shock treatment at BYU) gay people can't choose to not be gay.

Yet still, they want us to remain in the closet even after someone has the huge courage to come out, and to stop calling themselves gay or lesbian. We are all a "son or daughter of God", except some are more privileged than others. Some of these sons couldn't, and all the daughters still can't hold the priesthood. Some of Gods sons and daughters still can't marry, commit and spend a life free of religious persecution with the person they love.

Mormons are scared that if gay people start telling everyone they are gay, they might gain strength. If we are isolated in fear and pretend to be what we aren't, they can make us suicide one at a time.

And would he never describe himself as a heterosexual person?

He's basically saying that instead of being gay these people are f-ed up heterosexuals— because that's all God does- heterosexuality.

'We all have problems'...what an ass. Obviously God hasn't helped him overcome yet— he's still a giant douche.

Now all we need to do is legalize poof marriage, poof's in the military, protections from discrimination for poof's....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:23AM by MJ.

What would you say to group of Gays and Lesbians who still want to be Mormons? The man had to say something, and he couldn't say "There's nothing wrong with you, there's something wrong with the institution!"....even though that's the truth. If he said that HE'D be kicked out of the church.

As much as I love the gay community, the ones who want to hold to the Mormon or Christian God that plainly abhors them is something I just don't understand! Are they really that brainwashed!?! Don't they know that "God" doesn't fit inside the box religion has created for it? Can someone help me understand their logic better? It feels like I am missing a piece to this puzzle.

> he couldn't say "There's nothing wrong with you, there's
> something wrong with the institution!"....even though that's
> the truth.

Yes, he could say something like, IF he had things like integrity, compassion, courage etc. Your suggesting that he couldn't say that is to suggest that it is OK to attack a whole class of innocent people to protect and promote an institution.

> As much as I love the gay community, the ones who want to hold to the Mormon or Christian God that plainly abhors them is something I just don't understand!

You do not understand because it is such a flawed statement I was stunned to see it. It is not gays that are saying the Christian or Mormon God hates gays, it is Christian and Mormons that are pushing the idea that God hates gays. Holding on to the idea that God hates gays is NOT done by gays, it is done by Christians and Mormons.

You seem to be accusing the victim of an attack of making the attack on themselves.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 12:10PM by MJ.

OK, fist off...I did not say it's OK to attack a whole class of innocent people to protect and promote an institution....and I didn't think I suggested it either. I said the man who gave the speech is a MORMON, and he was asked to talk to MORMONS who are gay who still want to be Mormons. If you think about it for a second, you'd see that McMullin had little choice in what he could say to those people. I don't agree with what he said, I simply understand that in order to retain his membership, he couldn't really say much else. I thought that I was clear, I apologize.

In my next statement I was talking about the gay Mormons (and there are Christian ones as well) that cling to that God they were raised with. The first paragraph of the article informs you of the audience. From the article: "An LDS general authority on Saturday comforted Mormons who are attracted to people of the same sex but want to live by the church’s chastity rules, which bar sexual acts outside of marriage between a man and a woman". So, those are gay Mormons who see that they cannot change the Mormon God, nor do they want to. Someone attending such a speech is looking for a way out of their perfectly natural state. They feel that THEY are wrong, and their God is right. Nobody forced them to attend. These are the gay people I'm asking about. Not all gays are the same. So when I said, "the ones who want to hold to the Mormon or Christian God that plainly abhors them" THE ONES are not all gays, just those who believe that there's something wrong with them....so, I suppose that answers my question. They ARE indeed that brainwashed.

I agree with your statement that the idea that God hates gays is not done by gays, but rather done by Christians and Mormons. It's odd how a people who believe in love can be filled with so much hate. Theirs is a God I want nothing to do with.

Koemi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, fist off...I did not say it's OK to attack a
> whole class of innocent people to protect and
> promote an institution....and I didn't think I
> suggested it either. I said the man who gave the
> speech is a MORMON, and he was asked to talk to
> MORMONS who are gay who still want to be Mormons.
> If you think about it for a second, you'd see that
> McMullin had little choice in what he could say to
> those people. I don't agree with what he said, I
> simply understand that in order to retain his
> membership, he couldn't really say much else. I
> thought that I was clear, I apologize.

None of that makes it right. He is still aping the standard attack rhetoric of the LDS. Of course he had a choice, he could say to those people that he would work to make changes in the LDS that allow them full acceptance, he could refuse to speak, he had lots of choices.

Making statements condemning a whole class of people in order to protect his "membership" is throwing that community under the buss for his own self interest. I would call that bigotry.

I didn't say it was right...I just said I understood his motives. And I didn't say he didn't have a choice either, I said he had little choice (in relation to his calling and all). Of course he *could* truly serve those people and fight for their equality. It's a shame that will probably never happen.

Dood, I think he's a bigot too. All I've been trying to do is blame the Church more than the man, but I recognize they're both at fault.

Just as much as he hates shrimp, footballs, and women speaking in church.

Duh, it's in the bible. And the bible was written by God and published by Jesus.

Through a publishing holding company owned by the Holy Ghost.


Geeze.

Coming from a Christian man...

Maybe someone should remind the LDS leaders that pride is a sin also. He said, "We all have problems.". No Mr. McMullin, we are all wretched sinners, requiring the saving grace of Jesus Christ, including you.

Joe Wrote:
> No Mr. McMullin, we are all wretched
> sinners, requiring the saving grace of Jesus
> Christ, including you.

I'm not. I do not believe in your religion and nether do most of the people on this earth. I think it rather prideful to judge the majority of people to be sinners based on a religion that is not theirs.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not. I do not believe in your religion and
> nether do most of the people on this earth. I
> think it rather prideful to judge the majority of
> people to be sinners based on a religion that is
> not theirs.

The "majority" of people aren't sinners. We are all sinners. This includes me, you, everybody. How is that prideful?

Isn't it more prideful to say "I'm not" a sinner, as you just did.

To me to sin is to act against god's will. Since I am an Atheist, there is NO GOD thus no god's will so there is no way I can sin. To call me a sinner is to pridefully (thus sinning, by your beliefs) push your beliefs on me.

Your prideful arrogance is one of the Christian behavior that I hate the most./

Yes, I can and continue to do things that are wrong, but they are not sins since they are not against God's will.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 03:13PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
>Since I am an Atheist, there is NO GOD
<snip>

The fact that you don't believe in God doesn't change the fact that he exists. Your beliefs do not dictate reality. Similarly neither do mine. Because I tell you there is a God does not effect God at all. No matter what we say or do God is still God...

You know in your heart that you sin (just as I do). You have a conscience. You also admit this by saying you "do things that are wrong". So do I my friend...

I'm not standing on my high horse (like the TBM) preaching that I'm better than you (I'm probably not). I mean this seriously. You are probably 100 times the man that I am. If you could see my heart you'd be horrified. Unfortunately God doesn't judge us by the outward appearance he judges us by whats in our heart. I'm pretty good at looking good on the outside. It would be much easier for me to stand up as a TBM and pretend I'm a "good person" and "worthy". Unfortunately I'm not worthy, and will never be worthy (without the covering blood of Jesus Christ).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 04:12PM by MJ.

Joe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >Since I am an Atheist, there is NO GOD
>
>
> The fact that you don't believe in God doesn't
> change the fact that he exists. Your beliefs do
> not dictate reality. Similarly neither do mine.
> Because I tell you there is a God does not effect
> God at all. No matter what we say or do God is
> still God...
>

Then you have no business forcing your unfounded beliefs on me.


> You know in your heart that you sin (just as I
> do). You have a conscience. You also admit this
> by saying you "do things that are wrong". So do I
> my friend...

Again what BS, how on earth do you "know" what I know in my heart? I know in my heart that there is no God and that I can not sin. To continue to insist on applying your beliefs to me is rude, arrogant, prideful and by your stated beliefs sinful.

THen again, just because you claim "You know in your heart that you sin" DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

>
> I'm not standing on my high horse

BS.

MJ Wrote:
> Then you have no business forcing your unfounded
> beliefs on me.

I'm not forcing anything on you. I have an opinion and beliefs/convictions just like you do. I'm an exMormon that chose Christ. I assume you are an exMormon that chose Atheism. I don't think I am forcing Christ on you any more than you are forcing Atheism on me.

Work out your own salvation my friend... Don't listen to me if you don't want to (I'm okay with that).

Joe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MJ Wrote:
> > Then you have no business forcing your
> unfounded
> > beliefs on me.
>
> I'm not forcing anything on you.

Again BULL SHIT in ever post you have insisted that we have a discussion about a God and disrespecting of my beliefs you insist that your God's judgment applies to me, etc.



>
> Work out your own salvation my friend...

Judging by the last paragraph of what you wrote you have made some f'd up choices in your life. I see no reason to accept unwanted, unsolicited, arrogant advice form a person that has, apparently, made far worse choses in life than me. Regardless of me, that paragraph shows that your choices did not at all lead to good results. Maybe it is time you reevaluate your life and your choices. If your God thinks you should feel they way you expressed, you are worshiping a F'd up God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 05:16PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
> If your God thinks you should feel they
> way you expressed, you are worshiping a F'd up
> God.

I am worshiping a God that was kind enough to become a man, and take the punishment for my sins (whipped, beaten, and hung on a cross). What is more loving than that?

Well, then, just about everything is more loving than worshiping a God that would willing allow his son to be tortured.

Worshiping a God that willingly allows his son to be tortured (for the mistakes of that God) is sadistic, not loving.

God creates man with bad decision making skills

then punishes all of humanity for all time for two people each making a mistake.

--That certainly is not loving

Then when God needs to fix mankind Does God do it in a loving way? No. He does it in a manipulative way. He comes down and martyrs himself then threatens you by saying that if you don't believe this, you will not be saved. No, the classification is not about love, it is about threatening with not being saved in order to coerce belief.

Your God and the crucifixion is about coercion, not love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 02:12AM by MJ.

My father was an Evergreen moderator, who btw was given a "special calling" to be one and released from the stake high council. He used to call me up to talk about how wonderful and special Evergreen is, and how much love they show gays who comes there looking for help, etc. It made me sick.

One day, I launched into a tirade about how what Evergreen is REALLY doing is to ruin people's lives by perpetuating this myth, keeping gays from coming to terms with their sexuality, and encouraging gays to get into heterosexual marriage relationships and having children, thinking that if they just wish hard enough, it will all go away. I said that what Evergreen is doing is evil and wrong and it's destroying lives and he's taking part in it. One time I got him to admit that being gay is not a choice, and that there is no place for a gay man in the Mormon church. Of course, he still held tenaciously to the completely contradictory belief that the Mormon church is true and that if you're not in it, you're one of the wicked that is going to hell.

I don't know why Mormons say that being gay is a choice. Anyone who has known anyone who is gay knows that isn't true. I think for whatever cowardly or authoritarian reason, Mormons just need a whipping boy, and this decade it's gays. I'm not gay, and I was raised in the Mormon church, and just I can't figure it out.

Let's see--lots here. MJ I don't always agree with you, but here I do on every point.

I'm not sure if I'm a believer or not--but it is arrogant of anyone to say that because they believe, then FOR SURE there is a God and that YOU KNOW you are a sinner. I call myself a sinner "tongue in cheek"--my TBM daughter gets angry at me for doing so, but I am so sick of being the good girl, I wear my sinner-hood with great PRIDE.

As for the ones who still want to be mormon--I'm not gay (as you all know)--but anyone who is gay who was raised mormon (or converted because they were lied to--and I know plenty of them)--has had the worst kind of mind f*ck and they are listening to more of the same mind f*ck that this guy is talking about. They are SSA--same sex attracted (or whatever it is) and that takes it back again to SEX. The LDS church (and others) can never give gays credit for it being the WHOLE RELATIONSHIP--it ISN'T ABOUT THE SEX PEOPLE, quit making it that way. I do understand why gays stay mormon--it is all they know. How much more of a mind f*ck can you have than to be mormon and gay? How much pain are these people really in?

And Mak--they have to have someone to point at and ridicule. Kind of like the great and spacious building story . . . but it is the LDS who are pointing and laughing.

What an idiot he is!

I have decided to create a design for an anti-Evergreen sticker. If anyone wants a copy they can use it to churn out hundreds of them, I really don't mind, or just have one for themselves; just email me at matt_exmo@yahoo.co.uk and I'll sort it out!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 05:57PM by matt.

According to any God concept worthy of the name, "God" can lift any human burden, as such burdens are the products of limited human perception. (N.B., this is not the tribal biblical God who sees sin right and left; if God is perfect, he sees only our innate perfection.) And yes, "I am this or that," any story we tell about ourselves, is such a limitation. But in order for "God" (or the unlimited conscious core within us), to 'lift' anything, we (the outer story/fictional identification we take to be ourselves) have to let go of it. As it is, we cling tenaciously to our limited self-definitions and fight anything that we see as a threat to them.

And from this divine view, being hetero or 'a man' or 'a woman' is just as much a missing-the-mark (meaning of "sin") of what we really are (a divine spirit like God) as being gay. All self-definitions--and consequently all the burdens they assume--are superficial misidentifications.

Next, are we all "sinners"? To the extent that we self-define as this or that, then unavoidably so, for we all experience the existential givens which are the consequence of this self-defining: death, freedom (uninformed free-will), isolation, and meaninglessness (Irvin Yalom's (an atheist) formulation). Any self-defined human who says he or she doesn't experience these is not being honest, or else not introspective. If you believe there is no "salvation" from this human condition, again you are clinging madly to your own shadow/self-definition--which is like the ego's life-preserver.

"Each of us has 'problems' " So my "problem is I need to get my car fixed. But one of my best friends is gay,so she needs to fix her "problem". In the same catagory huh? I'm surprised (or am I?) that the lds haven't backed down more when it comes to gays. When Prop 8 was going on my (ex) ward was hugely involved. Alot of money in the ward,and apparently a lot of time to stay up all night and put out signs. It makes me sick too.

If your testimony is lacking, you are also supposed to "act as if" you have a testimony until it actually comes to you.

Mormons are supposed to fake it 'til they make it, even if it means you fake it all your life.

will that make me into somebody else?