Everyone who has seriously studied the history knows about the rock in the hat. But they continue to publish illustrations and articles that omit all reference to the true and principal method of translation used. I sometimes wonder how they can sleep at night. Surely they know that they are omitting key historical facts and using illustrations that promote false impressions.

But their illustrations got one thing sort of right. The one that shows the three witnesses looking at the plates presents an image of a visionary experience--which matches up with the "spiritual eyes" aspect of it. But even that illustration is dishonest because it doesn't indicate the fact that Martin Harris had a problem seeing anything until Joseph Smith took him aside and coached him separately.

I hate to say it. I really do. But, and to be as diplomatic as possible, the leaders of the Church appear to be lying sacks of bullshit. I'm sure they're reasonably nice guys and don't kill puppies for sport. But sheesh! They are so dishonest!

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/lds-magazines/ensign-october-2011/2011-10-03-the-prophet-joseph-smith-translator-of-the-book-of-mormon-eng.pdf?download=true

Emma also said the following about the translation process: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."

But for some reason, they didn't even mention that statement by Emma. I wonder why. Maybe they just forgot. I'm sure that they would like to present the complete picture. Yeah, they must have just forgotten. Mormons are so busy that they forget things.

;o)

puppies....no.
spirits?....yes!

Of course you were correct that most everyone knows about the seerstones. Articles about their use have been published even in the the Children's Friend, one problem most Mormons have is that they don't understand how common these things were in early America, and early Church members used the terms "seerstone" and "Urim and Thummim" interchangeably.
Most Mormons know Joseph used both, but don't seem offended if artists don't paint them into depictions of the translation process. Go figure??? : )
You said the CHurch leaders were lying, but I wasn't sure if the article was actually written by the First Presidency or what????

they simply don't care about truth as long as the money rolls in and keeps them wealthy.

Also, the church went back to the old painting of having only Joseph in his bed when Moroni was visiting him.

I didn't even open up the plastic covering for this damn issue. Instead, I sent it to my TBM DH who is overseas on deployment and instructed him to leave it out as a practice target for the enemy to shoot at, bwaa haa haa.

Of course TSCC is @#$%^ lieing through their @#$%^ teeth even to this day!

still says, "We don't know what he saw."

Agghh!! Put your head in your hat with a rock in the bottom and what do YOU see?!

Hard to disuss reality with mormons who believe in supernatural superstitious events. I think my husband must have been the reference in the bible story of the talking donkey. At least that is what he reminds me of when discussing problems within mormonism.

The whole issue is devoted to the Book of Marmon. There is even a Q&A article, complete with questions like "Is there any historical evidence for the Book of Mormon?"
Unfortunately, the article isn't written for thinking, honest people who have serious doubts about the Book of Mormon. The answers are geared towards those who have already convinced themselves that its twoo.

Speaking of Peepstones, I bought two of them about a month ago and when my wife and kids asked about them I told them they are seer stones similar to the ones that JS used. When I got confused looks I explained that JS would put a stone like this in a hat and would translate.

same here ... I bought one the other day -- I have next to my library in case anyone ever gives me lip about why I believe the BOM is BS. BTW, .... big push on the BOM in the October 2011. I think someone at the COB is worried.

And emphasize Christ and service, etc., considering the world is hearing "Mormon cult" lately. Gotta question their PR strategy.

Nothing more reassuring than being patronized. It's better than a cozy cup of cocoa!

thanks, I'd like to have the source for Emma's quote, so if/when a NOM 'TBM' asks me where I got it...THANKS

The source is the "Last Testimony of Sister Emma." I don't have the actual publication with me to check the cite, but this is the cite that is given:

History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols. (Independence, Missouri: Herald House, 1951), "Last Testimony of Sister Emma," 3:356.

http://www.i4m.com/think/southpark/mormon_translation.htm

It's a source that LDS Inc. cherry picks from whenever they find something convenient, so they can't (logically) accuse you of using a bad source if you quote from it.

Here's an example of Neal A. Maxwell quoting from it.

http://lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng

Note how Maxwell uses the term "divine instrumentalities" repeatedly to obfuscate the fact that they are referring to Joseph Smith's use of a stone. Maxwell must have known that he was being dishonest when he tried to gloss and fudge the facts that way.

where do you buy peepstones?

"Helping", my foot. Leaning on a shovel whilst shooting the bull is more like it.

go to a rock and mineral show and ask an old timer if he has any for sale (also called a "pocket stone"). mine is white with a "window" to see the future... or so I'm told. novelty item for me. I guess I'm not a seer.

skepti:

Missionary Malls have them, from time-to-time;
managers Claim they're in short supply, from unreliable sources, etc. (wink-wink).

they are actually rare, as Most are bought-up by the GAs or their shills... Then secreted into the FP Vault, of course...

someone was going to open a few "Peepstones R Us" stores... but with the economy the way it is...

got it?

Here is what the article in the Ensign states about the method of translation:

''To assist him with the translation, God provided for him an ancient translation instrument called the Urim and Thummim.''

No God didn't.
God provided Joseph with a stone that he found whilst digging a well, which Joseph then placed into his hat.

The article at best is disingenuous, at worst it's fraudulent.

A well-known Mormon apologist explained the seer stone to PBS. Why didn't the Ensign say more about it?

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/peterson.html

"Actually, most of the translation was done using something called a seer stone. The seer stone is obviously something like the Urim and Thummim. It seems to be a stone that was found in the vicinity, and I can't say exactly how it would have worked. It may have been a kind of a concentrating device or a device to facilitate concentration. He would put the stone for most of the concentration period in the bottom of a hat, presumably to exclude surrounding light. Then he would put his face into the hat. It's kind of a strange image for us today, but it sort of makes sense if you think of a computer screen, I suppose: You don't want to be looking at [anything] against a bright background; it hurts your eyes. ... He would read off what he saw in the stone, apparently in passages of about 25 to 35 words. ..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 09:00AM by Hoggle.

Notice the ring on the right hand. It is a tradition of eastern orthodoxy. Another explanation was as follows: "It usually means that the marriage has been dissolved. But sometimes it means, they just took it off the left hand and put it on the right so they can be available to someone they are fixing to meet up with."

My wife tells me placing the ring on the right hand was common during that period (european tradition).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 12:53PM by iamagodu.

ChurchCo manipulators KNOW that a large percent of 'readers' won't actually read the article, but those who see the graphics will have that image permanently imbedded in their minds; with me, I remem the images from the mish presentation(s) in the 60's!