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Posted by: Thread Killer ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 11:43AM

I've read that many of the names on the well-known map comparison of BoM names with names in the vicinity of Joe Smith's home are post "translation" or tiny villages that were "not known" to him (so that he could not have simply copied them); does anyone have a link for contemporary maps that will stop apologists in their tracks on this anti-anti tactic? Or are the apologists actually correct? Google has not been helpful. Thanks!

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Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: September 23, 2010 11:54AM

You can select for year, location, etc at this link

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: September 24, 2010 08:49PM

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Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 01:30AM

Sorry, I can't give you a specific map. I've never tried to put period maps with the Holley map. But the Dave Rumsey site has enough maps to spend a lifetime in.

You might try the New York county maps for 1829, compiled by David Burr. They seem to show good township details.

wayne county (palmyra) can be seen here:;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=45&trs=55

New York Counties for 1832 can be seen here:;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=4&trs=55

The above map for all of the counties can help narrow down which county to look for the Holley map towns.

Also, here is a link for a period New York gazetteer that might help locate towns.

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: September 24, 2010 08:59PM

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: September 24, 2010 11:38PM

But your OP question is not answered. I still don't have refs for maps showing the info supporting Holley map locations/names dated NLT 1830.

Maybe some other scholar here can help us with that. (i hope cuz i have yet to see the apolizists pruven rite so lets not start now)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 11:39PM by AmIDarkNow?.

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Posted by: AmIDarkNow? ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 12:11AM

Also Dale Broadhurst may be able to get you better answers for the apologist assertions. I'd like to know myself.

I sent him an email (a good while back now) askin bout info known before the BOM about scripture written on gold plates and he was able to give me several known sources.

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 12:46AM

This is an apologist site. His best argument after conceding that there is a match between the cities listed below, is that a third of them are not exactly where he would expect them according to the BoM descriptions. GASP!! So JS sucked at spatial cognition or just borrowed the names but didn't care so much about matching the exact location.
"The place-names that have corresponding locations on both maps include:
Valley of Alma/Alma
Kishkumen/Kishkiminetas Junction
Lehi-Nephi/Lehigh County
Onidah/Oneida Castle

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 02:04AM

Some apologists try to dismiss these cities because they weren't incorporated at the time JS wrote the BoM. This is a red herring. Nauvoo for instance was a city for quite a while before it officially incorporated. Just because these towns are small doesn't mean JS couldn't have known about them. Just look at Palmyra. It is still a really small town.,_Ohio
Jerusalem, OH,_New_York
Alma, NY,_PA
Shiloh, PA,_Armstrong_County,_Pennsylvania
Kiskiminetas, PA 1773,_Pennsylvania
Lehigh County, PA 1812,_New_York
Oneida, NY,_New_York
Angola, NY
Moraviantown, Ontario
"During the War of 1812, the Battle of the Thames took place between Moraviantown and Thamesville on October 5, 1813.",_Ontario
Tecumseh, Ontario
Rama, Ontario,_Quebec
Morin Heights,_Quebec
Saint Agathe,_Canada
Sherbrooke, Canada 1793,_New_York
Ephratah, NY 1720

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Posted by: Amos ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 04:18AM

These placenames in common with BoM and local contemporary geography are significant not as much because Smith might have known about them, but rather that he (and Ridgon) might NOT have known about them.
Theoretically, it was Spalding who borrowed the local placenames, and the above list demonstrates that they pretty consistently existed well before the 1811-1814 timeframe he would have written it. But the placenames are still distributed widely enough that Rigdon, Cowdery, and Smith may well have been unaware of them (revising Spalding's story after almost 20 years of subsequent population of the area, and all of them were newcomers).

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 06:07AM

Here's a copy of the Holley map showing the correspondences with BOM place names...

IMHO, this is one of the clearest examples of a "smoking gun" in the case against BOM historical authenticity, Mormon apologists' spin and prevaricative claims not withstanding.

A few years ago I delved into their claims that included assertions that many of these "coincidences post-dated" the BOM, and they are utter nonsense. The actual incorporation of a city or township often occurs long after the original settlement; for example, my home town of Holladay, Utah--which also served as a residence for a number of RFM regulars--was one of the oldest settlements in the Salt Lake Valley, dating back to July 29, 1847, and yet it was not incorporated until 1999!

Angola in New York was one area on the Holley map I investigated, and if memory serves, it's quite likely it was a "station" on the Underground Railroad, serving as a point of departure for Canada for escaping slaves.

Rather than look at maps--although they may be useful to establish the validity of Holley's conclusions--I found it more valuable to investigate the history of the places in question. Often there has been excellent scholarship detailing local history, and making available the research has been a point of civic pride for some individuals.

The dishonesty of the apologists will be readily apparent, and when one considers that they are hailing "NHM" as proof of Lehi's journey down the Arabian peninsula, their shameless hypocrisy is clearly illustrated.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 06:13AM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 01:17PM

Thanks Cabbie. One problem I have with the Holley map is the name Zarahemla. It shows as a town on the map of Smith's youth, but I cannot find anything about it. From gazeteers to maps the name is foreign. It seems to discredit an otherwise very good thesis.

For Amos:
Thomas Pownall maps of North America (1786 is one example) might shed more light on the Spalding theory, because those maps showed Indian territories and had some notes and comments about the tribes, some info going back to the earliest European contact.

It might be worth exploring the possibility of someone such as Spalding creating a fictional people and their history from the known geographies of the Indians in the New York and Ontario region before the towns and counties of the 1820s.

I wonder about this because of the two larger groups, Algonquin and Iroquois, with the various tribes belonging to one or the other. Might the Nephites and Lamanites be a fictional parallel? Has anyone matched up locations of tribes in this way?

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Posted by: Amos ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 02:42PM

Spalding's known extant story is about two nations of Indians called the Sciotians and the Kentucks, divided by the Ohio River. The parallels in theme, characters, and writing to the BoM are NUMEROUS (can't post links I'm on mobile). They convinced me all by themselves that the theory has evidenciary merit.
But, to the lasting chagrin of all advocates, there's no direct proof of a BoM draft written by Spalding. There's circumstantial evidence of it, but all apologists have ever had to say is "where's the body?"

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: September 25, 2010 03:51PM

We, of course, are saying the same thing about the tens of thousands of Nephites and Lamanits slain in BOM battles...

I like the S/R Hypothesis, and I believe there is much to support it (I've even corresponded with Craig Criddle), but I've had to focus my attention and historical studies elsewhere simply because of time constraints and a greater interest in Mormon excesses in Utah, which still have a huge bearing on events here.

The apologists are going to exhibit overt symptoms of denial every time solid evidence is put forth; witness the crapola they've flung at DNA stuff that is overwhelming...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 03:52PM by SL Cabbie.

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