My 12 yr old daughter is practically the last TBM of my many kids. She lives full time with my ex TBM wife.

We got talking and she brought up polygamy. So I told her that Joe was a big time polygamist. She didn't believe me, so I showed her the familysearch.org page on him, and we went through the teen marriages and married women philandering. She was astonished and thought it was just sick. And this was from an official LDS website (yes, I know, edited by whomever, but left in place too).

I asked her how could one believe Joe was a prophet after knowing what he did?

She said that her mom told her that by the very fact that there are questions it is evidence that the church is actually true. After my double-take, I asked how that is so.

Because, it is part of the test. God is purposely giving us confusing information, like a trick question on a school exam, to test us.

I retorted, so you believe that god lies to see if we'll follow the lies of his prophet? That makes god a liar. Why would you believe in that?

She said she believes we don't know why, but that god is smarter than us.

We discussed the difference between actual evidence and concocted evidence, but it seemed to have little effect. Her mom has done a good job brainwashing her.

Also, because she lives with her mom, it is in her self-interest not to rock the boat at home. I doubt she has consciously decided that, but it factors in. She can afford to disagree with you more than she can afford it with her mom.

Think long-term.

I agree. And I like how you said it would make God a liar as it would. Next time pick a new subject and then another. She just may get it in a few yrs.

That was surprisingly sophisticated for a 12 year old. I agree with robertb. Be patient, give it a few years.

If she's the last one to really believe, she's probably getting a lot of positive feedback for it, too. Just don't push...the fact that she's needing to think these things out will mean a lot down the road.

That is just scary how well she has been brainwashed. The twisted thinking of mobots is amazing. But, just keep giving her truth and things to question. One day her shelf will break. How aobut the good old 7 foot quakers on mars. If briggy was wrong about that how much else was he wrong about?

yet deep down there is still a spark of curiosity that is whispering "wait a minute...???"

Feed that with simple Mormon quotes and a non-aggressive introduction, such as, "here's a statement worthy of discussion on that subject..." and pull them out ONE AT A TIME...all from Authorized Mormon Sources.

(AKA Hall of Shame)


"Some things that are true are not very useful." - Apostle Boyd K.Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies vol. 21, no. 3, pp 259-271

"It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the
criticism is true." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, PBS documentary "The Mormons" 2007

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." - Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., History of the Church 6:408-409

"How, it may be asked, was this [angel] known to be a bad angel? By the color of his hair;..." Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 214

"He [Adam] is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50 (April 9, 1852)

"...with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." - Brigham Young,Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, p.271

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth." - Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us... " - Joseph Smith, the "King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4,Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 342-345

"The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet." -Apostle (later President) Ezra Taft Benson, "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophets," 1980

[Q. Was God once a man?] "I don't know. ... I wouldn't say that... I don't know that we teach it... We don't know very much about [that]... I don't know a lot about it" - President Gordon B.Hinckley, interview in TIME Magazine, August 4, 1997

"I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the
truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. - Apostle Boyd K.Packer, quoted in Richard Abanes, One Nation Under Gods, p 416

"The dangers [to the Mormon church] I speak of come from the
gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement (both of which are
relatively new), and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." - Apostle Boyd K. Packer, Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council, May 18, 1993

"...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, ...he is justified; he cannot commit adultery... And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law... he [is] justified." Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62.


"It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness

"Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - BETTER DEAD CLEAN, THAN ALIVE UNCLEAN. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: 'I WOULD RATHER YOU HAVE COME BACK IN A PINE BOX WITH YOUR VIRTUE THAN RETURN ALIVE WITHOUT IT.'"Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.


"This morning I want to discuss some of the spiritual lessons we can learn from the process by which a cucumber becomes a pickle. .... I pray this parable of the pickle may help us to evaluate our lives and to better understand the eternal importance of spiritual rebirth. (MISSING REFERENCE)


"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball,

"Men, treasure your wives. They are your most valuable possession." Gordon B. Hinckley, April 2007 Conference.

Shortly before his death in 1844, Joseph boasted:

"If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get up on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them.... My enemies... think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down: but the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.... I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409)

In December 1843, Joseph's remarkable ambition was apparent in a petition he sent to Congress. He asked that Nauvoo be made a completely independent federal territory, with the Nauvoo Legion incorporated into the U.S. Army and the mayor of Nauvoo (himself) given power to call out the United States troops whenever necessary. This was accompanied with a prophecy:

"I prophesied by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them - not even a grease spot!"(Millennial Star, Vol. 22 (1860), p. 455. Note that the words in italics (alla after "damn them," were omitted when this passage was reprinted in the History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 116)

Anagrammy

Fantastic collection, Anagrammy. I will be using these on FB soon. ;-)

I continually recall that the TBMs are, in fact, me earlier in my life. How humbling that is and how appreciative I am for my own negative experiences that were so painful at the time, which I judged as "bad" and yet lead me out--to a much better life.

Anagrammy

My 60 some year old friend said some of the same stuff to me recently. No logical arguments I used seemed to filter through in terms of accepting my beliefs as they are.

Blows my mind.

Funny, because the bible says the one way to know a true prophet of God from a clever fake is that true prophets can't lie. God hates lies and liars. If you believe the bible, then anyone who works in lies can't be of God. God would never confuse you with a lie.

I really hate the mindgames Mormons play on each other - it's scary to see how easy it is to twist peoples' thoughts around for their own purposes. Good thing she has you to practice rational thought with.

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny, because the bible says the one way to know
> a true prophet of God from a clever fake is that
> true prophets can't lie. God hates lies and
> liars. If you believe the bible, then anyone who
> works in lies can't be of God. God would never
> confuse you with a lie.
...

That's where they'll say the Bible really was not "translated correctly".... God really LOVES lies and liars.