"'Sad to say, Romney's faith is hurdle"

"I feel strongly that Mitt Romney does not stand a chance at being the Republican nominee for president. Not that he is unqualified, but because Romney is a Mormon.

"The main focus seems to be on Romney's religious faith and not on his abilities to be president or on his platform.

"Pastors of other churches have informed their congregations that Romney does not believe in Christ and that they should not vote for him. This is happening despite the fact that the actual name of his church has the name of Jesus Christ in it - the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"My wife and I are Mormons. Being a Mormon did not hurt me as a soldier in the Army or as an FBI special agent.

"But being a Mormon is going to hurt Mitt Romney.

"- Don Smith, Phoenix"

(Letter to the editor, "Arizona Republic," 24 October 2011, with reader response and commentary, at: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2011/10/24/20111024monlets244.html#ixzz1bjKH66pW

A church with a name which includes the word "Christ."

If you are on the membership roster of such a church, <poof!> you're a Christian!

WiserWomanNow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A church with a name which includes the word
> "Christ."
>
> If you are on the membership roster of such a
> church, you're a Christian!

the size of the larger font in their name proves they are mainstream christian ..: )

Letter writer says: "Pastors of other churches have informed their congregations that Romney does not believe in Christ..."

Is this really happening? If so, I'd like to know how anyone outside MR's brain/heart/life _knows_ what he believes. To me, it's zealously "fundy" to proclaim that another person is not Christian merely by the teachings of their church, in most cases.

OTOH, and I've said this before, and in many cases it could be the smoking gun, Mormons are the only self-proclaimed Christian people I have ever run into (amongst a lot of searching, observing, learning, and joining) (some of) who point to the official name of their church as evidence of their Christian identity. Christians, especially the EV variety of my acquaintance, say they are Christian because they follow Jesus Christ or believe in Jesus Christ or have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or have committed themselves to Jesus Christ or they have been born again unto Jesus Christ or similar expressions of belief in Jesus. Many Mormons (unfortunately) say that the name of their church including "Christ" demonstrates that they are Christian. This is surpassingly strange to Christians.

I note that the Osmonds do this frequently, especially Marie in the last couple of interviews I've seen (eg: a couple on CNN fairly recently with Donny and Marie together, on Larry King and another host I believe). It seems to be Marie's go-to line, often her first and only comment when asked that question that won't go away: Are Mormons Christians? I wince whenever she or any Mormon says "of course we're Christian - we've got the name Jesus Christ right in our church name!" Eek. I guess it would work somewhat better if they said that, as it seems so meaningful to them, but followed it up by saying something about Jesus, the Son of God, as opposed to Jesus Christ, the object that occurs in their church name.

Where at least EV Christians will likely mention their personal relationship with Jesus, Mormons can't say that as apparently their leaders have decided they can't have a personal relationship. Just like they've decided that unconditional love does not exist (or at least is not a belief of the LDS Church). Or have they changed one or both of those tenets again?

At least, you have to say, the leaders are making outright statements on those two counts, rather than leaving it fuzzy as they do with so many other details.

But in a church where the leaders discourage a "personal relationship" with Jesus and proclaim the non-existence of unconditional love, you could forgive Christians for wincing about the lack therein of two of Christianity's most basic ideas.

It suits the rhetoric of the leaders for their people to have zero expectation of unconditional love, from above, or from within the church. If you feel loved anyway, how many toilets are you gonna keep on cleaning for free? Maybe you'll decide that a mission's not for you. Maybe you'll slow down and stop trying to meet excessive eternal expectations; instead of constantly doing you can just be, and still feel loved, as YOU are not what you DO, especially under compulsion.

It doesn't mean that the toilets in non-mo churches don't get janitored, but that the cleaners can receive unconditional love whether they scrub the loos or not.

What a concept!

So what if they have the name of JC in their church name. It means nothing unless they believe that JC is their savior. Is he....or is it ole Joe who let's them in the kingdom??? Is Joe the main honcho??? I don't blame any Christian church for the skeptism they have. I have never heard a Mormon say what Christians say when they join the various churches. Their (Christians ) devotion is totally to JC.

To be fair, I've heard many Mormons call Jesus their Saviour. The leaders also say it often in their GC talks. I have met Mormons whose beliefs about Jesus and their devotion/commitment to Him are indistinguishable from EV Christians.

The problem in Mormonism (for Christians) is that there's often a subtext which to Christians distorts the message.

For example:

A Mormon will say "I know that Jesus Christ is my Saviour" [subtext: "after all I can do"].

A Mormon will say "I know I can only get into Heaven because of my Saviour, Jesus Christ" [subtext: "after passing by JS at the gate", plus all the signs and tokens from the temple].

As I said bemusedly to my TBM friend when I figured out a few things about Mormonism (unfortunately, not until after baptism) Mormon theology has the message of grace/works upside down (according to traditional Christian beliefs). Christianity teaches that we are "saved by grace" (as opposed to "our own works") which to Christians means that salvation depends on "Jesus plus nothing". The idea is that we do "good works" _because_ we are saved, not to _become_ saved. In Mormonism, as it was explained to me at length by missionaries and TBMs and from what I've read in Mormon lesson manuals, the principle is that we "do all we can" _first_ and then "what we can't achieve, Jesus fills in". That is very much a belief in "works" first and grace second. In fact, it could be seen as us saving ourselves or at least contributing to the effort. To Christians this is blasphemy, as it discounts the "saving grace" of Jesus and His sacrifice for all.

To Christians, especially the EVs who have factored large in my church experience, the Mormon teaching on this is a form of denying the power of Jesus and is another reason they have for considering that Mormonism is not Christian. You can't diss the Big Guy and still call yourself a faithful follower.

A similar denial of the power of Jesus (anathema to Christians) is the Mormon teaching that some sins are not covered by "the blood of Jesus"; i.e., that in some cases a person, again, must "save themselves", as in having to do something extra over and above believing in Jesus and accepting His sacrifice on their behalf in order to be forgiven for a certain sin (i.e., murder) (as in blood atonement, spilling blood, firing squad, etc to atone for themselves).

Some Christian denominations do teach works over grace (I'm not up on the details of that at this moment) which is a huge disparity between EV-type denoms that teach "Jesus plus nothing". The latter does not mean that you can lightly say you accept Jesus and then spend your life in profligacy. Your profession of faith must be sincere and if you believe in Christian principles your life should reflect that.

I can accept that a mixture of grace and works is the way to go but in Mormonism the works part ("all you can do") comes first and that is _not_ a mainstream Christian teaching, at least in EV-land where I have spent a lot of time.

That is why I say that Mormons (JS) have it upside down; all you can do first, then Jesus' blood (sacrifice) kicks in.

I go with the principle that God can read our hearts, which negates all our own efforts and would go so far, imho, with TBMs to help them calm down, relax, stop running, striving, exerting, doing, and trust that their belief is what is important, not who they are or what they DO. And oh yeah, they don't need the temple or the signs or the tokens or the covenants or JS to get into Heaven. That's why Christians call the gospel message "Good News". For Mormons, the Good News could be that JS is NOT waiting at the Pearly Gates and he is NOT "second only to Jesus" and you do NOT have to remember a special "new name" in order for God to recognize you and admit you to your heavenly reward.

NB: All the above is "theory" as I'm just trying to outline the differences in beliefs. It's not "fact", of course, as I have no way of knowing what the future holds or how the heavens are aligned, obviously. I'm speaking above in terms of beliefs of both camps, not stating that this is a rational, scientific, proven or provable scenario. I am also not a Christian apologist as I don't have the detailed knowledge available. I used to but my brain is now filled up with other things.

In terms of honestone's comments as a Christian, I understand where she's coming from. I do acknowledge that many/most Christians don't really have a deep knowledge of Mormonism and may only see the surface which may not give them an accurate viewpoint on some things. Hey, I was inside and it was confusing and opaque and tough to figure out and I *tried* hard to do so, so I don't blame any outsider who doesn't grasp even the essentials or especially the nuances. Nevermos too though have their own experiences and feelings to relate and that is a need they have, and a right, especially if they have been touched, or hurt, by Mormonism, just like BICs and converts and neighbours and relatives and others.

Looking at the OP again, I see the statement by the letter writer that "Being a Mormon is going to hurt Romney". I know he meant that in a political context but my take on it is "no kidding". Mormonism has a way of hurting most everybody, even if they don't actually realize it at the time.

So, I tried to stay on topic, hope I succeeded. I somehow related it all back to the OP, after all. :)

Whenever I've received the argument in apologetics from Mormons who say, "But we've got the name 'Jesus Christ' right in the name of our Church!" my response is, "Hey, I can say my name is Mickey Mouse, if I want to, but that doesn't change who I am."

BTW, this is usually a response from a Mormon adolescent just beginning in apologetics.


~VOW

I remember years ago when the church tried to build a chapel out in the Maryland countryside. There was all kinds of opposition. The best we could tell is that the small town ministers did not want the mormon missionaires there. This was before Internet and when the church missionary efforts were more productive. We knew the owner of the land and he eventually sold it.

Try telling a someone who believes in Christ that they don't believe in the right Christ and you will get push back. The bottom line is that Mormons are Christian, a different type of Christian but still Christian.

Mormon X-tianity is an abomination to regular X-tains.

And every other church is an abomination to Mormonism.

It's a win-win.

Mormons have never believed in the same J.C. that Christians do. The prophets in LDSinc have always made this distinction and pointed out that other churches are WRONG.

Why is it that they want to be part of the Christian community now....instead of hating them as "the great whore of the earth"?

We Mormons don't believe in Jesus of the bible we believe in the Jesus that lives on Kolob and has plural wives and makes solar systems of his own and creates spirit children by having sex with his wives. On top of that we think that we are going to be doing this same thing when we are just like God and Jesus. Making solar systems and little human spirit babies....millions/billions of them. (That's a lot of sex for us next in line jesus/god people to be having on our own planet)

Do you really expect christians to believe that this equates to being regular old everyday christians? Do you think they are stupid?

We are a minor religion to the world and they think we are pretty much full of it. Read on.....


Here is what Christians think of Mormons:
From the website: http://carm.org/does-mormonism-attack-other-religions



The battle continues and Mormons try to claim that they do not go around condemning other religions like "anti-Mormons" do. They say they are forgiving, tolerant, good Christian people who don't have anything against anyone. They claim they are being more Christ-like.

Their desire for a good image is understandable. But the question remains. Does the Mormon church condemn other religious systems? The answer is definitely, "Yes." Let's look at Mormon writers and see what they have said.

Joseph Smith said . . .

(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)

(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)

Brigham Young said. . .

"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).

John Taylor said . . .

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense.... Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).

"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).

His nickname at the FBI must have been "Agent News Flash."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2011 08:56PM by munchybotaz.