There's an article in the current issue of Skeptic magazine detailing a survey about who believes an alien spaceship crashed in Roswell, NM in 1947 and that the government covered it up. Survey results showed the less educated and the more religious respondents claimed to be, the more likely they were to believe in the Roswell UFO story.

I don't think it's fair to say one belief causes another, but I think there's a world view or personality that gravitates toward a cluster of ideas. Perhaps the personality type comes first, shaping the way people experience and view the world.

When we look at actual early Mormonism and the people it attracted, we see hints of the same type of belief in off-beat, often fantastical, things. Mormonism considers people who embrace the gospel to have been prepared by the spirit. "Prepared" could just mean they have the same magical or even gullible mindset.

So, if the LDS church wanted to be more successful in their proselytizing (not that *we* want them to be), perhaps they should target UFO and conspiracy theory groups. Maybe they should hustle quack medicine advocates and multi-level marketing victims. You gotta know your audience.

Agreed. I remember baptizing a family on my mission and thinking that they were way too normal to fit into the church.

The thing to keep in mind with this "connection" is that people who are swayed by fantasy are also susceptible to doing atrocious things when swayed by leaders with unkind agendas. It was dogmatic obedience by the rank-n-file that allowed Stalin to wipe out millions based on his superstitious (albeit atheist) prejudices. One doesn't have to be religious to be superstitiously susceptible to this kind of swaying.

Stalin didn't kill anyone in the name of Atheism.
He killed in the name of communism.

Maybe you need to study your history a little better.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Russia/Moscow/Highlights/index.html

>It seems surprising that the communists allowed so many cathedrals and churches to remain standing. Apparently Stalin was somewhat superstitious, even ordering a special service in one of the Kremlin cathedrals during the Great Patriotic War in the hope of keeping the encroaching Germans at bay. His successor Khruschev was apparently more ruthless as far as the church was concerned.

Not surprising since he was a madman that he might have some distorted beliefs...

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stalin didn't kill anyone in the name of Atheism.
> He killed in the name of communism.
>
> Maybe you need to study your history a little
> better.


You read far more in my (parenthetical) words than I intended. I did not mean he killed in the name of atheism. He killed from prejudice that was born of superstition (non-factual beliefs) about others.

from hundreds of light years away or manipulating space and time that they would crash once here. Right.

the roswell incident did happen. there's lots of eyewitnesses, documentation, etc, from people with clearance. about UFOs in general, just keep an open mind: of all the thousands of sightings from the prehistoric times until now, it only takes one (1) of them to be true, to prove that aliens do exist and do visit us.

conspiracies do exist as well. (eg iraq conspired against kuwait in the 90s). conspiracy theories are just theories until evidence is shown. but unfortunately, some people prefer to avoid the evidence because they are comfortable with the status quo.


on the other hand, the plates and angels, did not exist. there's not enough witnesses (8 buddies including family members doesn't count). plus the story proves false after several contradicting statements, places, people, etc. and some people also prefer to avoid the evidence and continue to believe what the system tells them. it makes them happy.

my two cents.

And I would do a little scientific research on just how big the solar system is alone, and you might reach the point where it's easier to believe a lot of people are telling whoppers rather than little greenies are engaging in interstellar journeys...

And don't get me wrong; I loved almost all of the Star Trek variations and cursed NBC when the "The Event" was cancelled after one season. And I grew up on Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke and the rest (it beat the hell out of trying to wade through the BOM). But that stuff is strictly fun and entertainment that offers useful explorations about the human condition by placing it in a modified environment where the nuances can be artistically explored.

There is no legitimate "history of UFO's" in the past, just some liars like Von Däniken with books to sell...

And hey, one liar can have huge repercussions... Take Joseph Smith, for example...

without taking sides, this certainly deserves some attention.

Where do you think these artists get the concept of flying discs? feel free to speculate.


1] "The Baptism of Christ" painted in 1710 by Aert De Gelder


2] "The Madonna with Saint Giovannino" a painting from around the 1400 probably painted by Domenico Ghirlandaio


3] "The Crucifixion" by an anonymous artist in 1350


4] "great paintings" from a manuscript from the 12th century called Annales Laurissenses


5] how about the paintings on Svetitskhoveli Cathedral in Mtskheta also from the middle ages?


6] "La Tebaide" by Paolo Uccello around 15th century



7] "The Annunciation" by Carlo Crivelli (1486)

You want to compare my experiences with being drunk with yours? Honest, I haven't had a drink in an awful long time, but I think I still win that one hands down... I have some familarity with the "world of crazies" and distorted realities where one believes one's own nonsense.

Artists have imagination, way more than most ordinary mortals... The Greeks spoke of a winged horse, do you believe in Pegasus? Or the flight of Daedulus and what became of Icarus?

There's no more scientific validity to those images than there is to a claim that the following belongs in a textbood on human physiology and anatomy...

http://www.paintinghere.com/artistPic/Pablo%20Picasso.jpg

since you mentioned science a lot, remind me of a single law of [newtonian] physics what would prevent beings from other worlds to visit us. i'd just like to hear one law that says "no" and i take it all back.


if we humans are already going out to explore other worlds, why can't other more technologically beings do the same (regardless of time/space it would take them to get here)?


google some of the paintings i named on your free time. i just used the paintings example because it'd be easier to pinpoint the objects on the actual canvas. i'm not counting hundreds of witnesses from the past and today such as astronauts --which i believe they know a thing or two about flying objects.



i'll speculate on why they painted what they painted:

* was it because it was cool at that time? i don't think so.

* was it because that would get them laid faster? not really.

* were they drunk when they painted something like that?unlikely

* were they mentally deluded? never seen a loony paint like that. they were world class artists.

* did they share the same "imagination" or mental picture of the same object? same shape? same form? hundreds of miles apart? highly unlikely.


my take is that they saw something that really resembles what we call now a days a UFO. what they saw fits perfectly the definition of a UFO --it was an object, flying, and they could not identify what it was. they painted about it. and for some reason they associated that to the divine.

they were just as ridiculed as "alien made UFO" believers of today.

darth jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> since you mentioned science a lot, remind me of a
> single law of physics what would prevent beings
> from other worlds to visit us. i'd just like to
> hear one law that says "no" and i take it all
> back.
>
>
> if we humans are already going out to explore
> other worlds, why can't other more technologically
> beings do the same (regardless of time/space it
> would take them to get here)?

Straw man. The claim is not being made that it is impossible for there to be other intelligent life in the universe, but that the evidence that such extraterrestrial life is visiting us is pitifully weak.

> google some of the paintings i named on your free
> time. i just used the paintings example because
> it'd be easier to pinpoint the objects on the
> actual canvas. i'm not counting hundreds of
> witnesses from the past and today such as
> astronauts --which i believe they know a thing or
> two about flying objects.
>
>
>
> i'll speculate on why they painted what they
> painted:
>
> * was it because it was cool at that time? i
> don't think so.

I think they painted what they painted because it WAS cool at the time. The statement "I don't think so" is a statement about YOU and not about artistic sensibilities many generations ago.

> * was it because that would get them laid faster?
> not really.
>
> * were they drunk when they painted something
> like that?unlikely

What about they were sober when they made the painting but the idea for it came to them when they had been drinking. A memory of some drunken "vision" could easily have inspired a painter when he was sober.

> * were they mentally deluded? never seen a loony
> paint like that. they were world class artists.

World class artists can't be mentally deluded? You've no doubt seen the film "A Beautiful Mind" about the world-class mathematician John Nash, winner of the Nobel Prize, who was extremely mentally deluded.

> * did they share the same "imagination" or mental
> picture of the same object? same shape? same form?
> hundreds of miles apart? highly unlikely.

I googled the first two paintings on your list. The "objects" were completely different in them. They were not the pictures of the "same object" they didn't have the "same shape" or the "same form."

> my take is that they saw something that really
> resembles what we call now a days a UFO. what
> they saw fits perfectly the definition of a UFO
> --it was an object, flying, and they could not
> identify what it was. they painted about it. and
> for some reason they associated that to the
> divine.

That's one person's pure speculation.

> they were just as ridiculed as "alien made UFO"
> believers of today.

Do you have any evidence that any of the artists of any of the paintings you posted were ridiculed for having claimed to have actually seen flying objects?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2011 11:58PM by baura.

Someone has spent a little too much time watching "Ancient Aliens"

don't get me wrong. as i previously stated, i'm not taking any sides.

all i'm asking is "why not?"

there's data out there, some are reliable, some are unreliable, but certainly there's plenty out there to allow me to ask questions instead of accepting the mainstream views.

after all, asking questions brought me out of mormonism so i advocate that system. if there were something better, i'd advocate that one instead.

darth jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> don't get me wrong. as i previously stated, i'm
> not taking any sides.
>
> all i'm asking is "why not?"
>
> there's data out there, some are reliable, some
> are unreliable, but certainly there's plenty out
> there to allow me to ask questions instead of
> accepting the mainstream views.
>
> after all, asking questions brought me out of
> mormonism so i advocate that system. if there were
> something better, i'd advocate that one instead.


Interesting that you believe there is plenty of data to question, see the "data" in art work, as if it were almost common sight, but for all the sightings past and present, there is not one piece of evidence one can hold and measure and show to everyone.

The "art work" of arnold friberg, by your estimate, is also data showing that there's plenty reason to wonder if those mormons aren't correct.

What, pray tell, is the reliable data for the existence of alien visitors from other worlds?

UFO does not equal alien.

The UFO phenomenon has many possible explanations. If you've read Jung you might lean a little less towards pro-bono proctologists from zenebel ganoobi who appear to drunk rednecks and leave less evidence than zeus.

But hey, maybe it's possible. Maybe aliens have traveled across the galaxy (taking thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years to get here since they can't break the speed of light) and instead of making contact they're staying hidden for no good reason. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Try saying "I don't know" to a question a kid asks you and you'll have lost "stature" in their eyes, at least until they have a bit of education and maturity of their own.

Uncertainty creates troubled and unwanted feelings, particularly where curiosity is suppressed and faces social sanctions.

A fertile field for the pied pipers of pizazz...

You're right. Mormons should target other conspiracy groups to find converts. The people who are credulous or emotionally vulnerable are perfect targets for them.

What do the conspiracy folks and religionists have in common? IMO they often share a lower standard for evidence and have inconsistency in their logic tools and reasoning.

If someone, for example, accepts hearsay as factual evidence, he is susceptible to accepting religious and fantastical claims as fact. He does not question effectively because he either doesn't want to or does not know how.

Unexplained events happen... against all odds and beyond the reach of the most compotently educated person. There are ways to explain it away and yet science always runs iinto surprises. Do not discount magic, the occult, mormonism, or alien visitation.

Who's moniker has the letters "BS" in it...

If you're on the up and up, I won't discount the very real possibility that your subconscious is trying to send you a message from your "Inner Voice of Reason."

As for "ordering" people here, were you raising your arm to the square while you typed it?

UFOs are not interstellar vehicles. They're just that, unidentified and undisclosed, top secret flight vehicles being tested without notice. I remember when I first laid eyes on a stealth bomber, I had to scoop my jaw off the floor. It looked like it flew straight out of a sci-fi graphic comic. And it made no damn noise, jesus!

It stands to reason that the Roswell crash was one such incident or secret test flight and failure, probably the first. The crash was bad PR, the US gov't or whomever was testing was clumsy about it and the media blew it out of proportion. Then you had unstable people just going ape shit over the whole thing. These are the same people who believe in dancing suns, stigmata, and pass around urban legends on the net.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2011 02:59AM by charles, buddhist punk.

well, i can testify to you aliens do exist. and that the nazi also built sophisticated crafts.

:)

take it easy guys. don't crucify me for a question of semantics (data, evidence, theory, hypothesis, etc)

like i said before, i'm not taking any sides. all i'm saying is that "what if" based on what i know --which is very limited.


that was it.

who cares man. relax. now i'm over it. aloha.