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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 08:08PM

Every person's experience is valid, no matter how different they may be.

One of the most interesting things about the Internet is reading the vastly differently experiences of others as they relate to Mormonism. Some are similar to mine, some are very different.

My experience and observation is that there are as many different kinds of Mormons as there are Mormons. Sure, there are a lot of similarities, but there are a lot more of differences.

There are dozens of variables that contribute to how believers internalize the teachings, how they believe them, how they understand them, how they live them, (and for how long), and how they experience them, and how they relate to other members and how other members relate to and treat them. They are all valid experiences.Just because some of them are different, doesn't invalidate any of them.

A little background.
This will explain some of the dynamics that play into how and why my experiences with Mormonism may be similar, or different than others.

In my case, I had two decades of life as an active member of a Christian Church (CYF-Christian Youth Fellowship leadership throughout my teenage years), before I converted with our little family. We had several generations of Christian ministers in our family also. I was planning to become a Music Minister when I got out of high school. That was the only area of ministry open to a female in those days. It was a paid position also. But I converted to Mormonism,, and the course of my life changed dramatically.

We were also involved, in a minor way, in Spiritualism, which contributed to how we understood the teachings initially, and why we joined. Little did I know how accurate my beliefs were that Joseph Smith was a psychic until I read, several decades later: BH Roberts Vol 1 --The Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ. that said:pg. 88 "Other Psychics Than the Prophet","The fact was that Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra." .

Also, the years we lived Mormonism contributes to our different kinds of experiences. I was an active believer from the early 60's to the late 90's. Those years covered some big changes in church policies, how the auxiliaries were run, how the classes were named, how we raised money locally, how finances were used locally, the different presidents/prophets, and on and on. Many of the programs I participated in and enjoyed are gone. I was a member when it was fun. :-) I watched that change, however.
These were the president/prophet of the LDS Church while I was an active, immersed, total believer:
9 David O. McKay 1951-1970
10 Joseph Fielding Smith 1970-1972
11 Harold B. Lee 1972-1973
12 Spencer W. Kimball 1973-1985
13 Ezra Taft Benson 1985-1994
14 Howard W. Hunter 1994-1995
15 Gordon B. Hinckley 1995-2008


Naturally, how I internalized, experienced, and understood and lived the teachings in Mormonism was greatly impacted by the factors I listed. I have never met anyone with experiences and background to mine, coming into the LDS Church as a convert as an adult.

Another function of how we experience Mormonism is our personality. I came into Mormonism as a musician/teacher with experience in entertainment with some college, living on my own. Being in front of an audience was quite natural for me because of my background. I am an extrovert, can talk to anyone usually, and enjoy people. Whether we are introverted or shy, or extroverted, (probably genetic), our experiences are valid even if they are very different than other people.

My early experiences in the LDS Church were in BYU Married Student Housing as we lived on campus for several years while my husband got his engineering degree (five year course). We were newly married when we moved in and over the years, our two first children were born there. That was a very unique situation, not found in other Wards/Stakes of the LDS Church as I quickly learned living in other states and Wards/Stakes over the following decades.

Our family is another dynamic that contributes to how we lived and experienced Mormonism, how they kept the Sabbath Holy, how they lived the Word of Wisdom, and on and on. Some families were more of the Letter of the Law type: very strict parental influence, lots of very rigid rules, journaling, morning and night time family prayers, daily family scripture reading, and on and on and on. Some were not. We were more on the other end: The Spirit of the Law type family, more liberal, but with some family traditions and influences that specifically came from Mormonism. We were strict by some things, and not others.

Even though those familial influences were different, they are all valid.
One person's experience does not invalidate another persons experience.
They will, naturally, be different as we are all different.

Our Exit Process from Mormonism, as I define it for myself, (as it's a process in my experience) will be different also. Some loved the gospel, some hated it. Most of the time, I loved it! :-) But, as with all of life, it was: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly.

One person's process, which will naturally be very different, depending on many factors, (family, children, heritage, etc.). Those different factors/experiences does not invalidate another person's experience. Besides, nobody invalidate another person's experience!

One thing I noticed in all of my experiences in school, work, career, home, churchs, is that human behavior is the same everywhere. Every kind of human behavior can show up anywhere in all the extremes and everything in between. Anything one human being can do, so can another.

I experienced very different personalities, different kinds of behavior in all facets of my life: churches/school/home/work/career, etc. I often say that human behavior is the same everywhere, just the faces change! :-)

In the LDS Church I would presume that we have all experienced negative and positive behavior from family, friends and members. On the one hand, we have probably been treated well, with love, kindness and understanding from family and friends/etc. , On the other hand, we've all been betrayed, (probably many times in our lives) lied to, treated rudely, some have been verbally, physically, or sexually abused. Human behavior is not always consistent either. We have probably all experienced people who were: arrogant, condescending,defensive, verbally unkind, invasive, inappropriate, lacking in boundaries, and on and on.

I know from my life time of experience, those same behaviors showed up at school and at work and in the family, whether LDS or not. No matter where they occurred, I needed to learn how to deal with them. Sometimes, dealing with difficult people was easier than others, sometimes I had more options than other times.

Of course, all of those experiences are valid, no matter where they occur. Just because they are different, doesn't mean they are not valid. or didn't happen.
The variety of experiences all work to teach us something. They are our life experiences, our lessons in life. But, we can also learn from others especially as we share on the Internet on this board, in emails, on Facebook, etc, etc.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 08:12PM

If you really believed what you just wrote, then why do you try so hard to invalidate those experiences that we had that are negative and try to tell us how we should feel about them?

Fair is fair.

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Posted by: anonirregular ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:39AM

Seconded. So often Susie has no idea what her fellow posters are talking about. That never happened in Susie's ward, it MUST be an exaggeration!!!

Now she's trotted out the party line, so much like TSCC. Of course it's a family friendly church!
(You'll only be separated in heaven and for weddings.)

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:42AM

anonirregular Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seconded. So often Susie has no idea what her
> fellow posters are talking about. That never
> happened in Susie's ward, it MUST be an
> exaggeration!!!
>
> Now she's trotted out the party line, so much like
> TSCC. Of course it's a family friendly church!
> (You'll only be separated in heaven and for
> weddings.)

Geez! Do you know how to read? She said there are many different experiences. Got it? Many different experiences. That means that your experience is different from mine and mine is different from hers and so on. Sure some people have had more problems than others. Some of you really need to learn how to read.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:49AM

bona dea Wrote:

>
> Geez! Do you know how to read? She said there are
> many different experiences. Got it? Many different
> experiences. That means that your experience is
> different from mine and mine is different from
> hers and so on. Sure some people have had more
> problems than others. Some of you really need to
> learn how to read.

What boggles the mind is the number of things attributed to me that I did not post. I don't know what they are reading,but it's not me.

Some people just make it up as they go along. Unbelievable.

Everyone has positive and negative experiences, everywhere in life. No way to avoid it. It's called: LIFE!!

I know what I experienced. So does my family.

For once, I wish the naysayers would try reading what I actually say, and understand it. Guess, with some, that's not possible.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:36AM

You came after me just the other day to be specific. You put experiences into my mouth, and told me how I should feel about them and then specifically minimalized my experiences with some smart ass comments. When I called you on it you became very smug and arrogant in your responses. It was rude, insulting, and condescending. Just like your comments about reading comprehension are now.

If you weren't posting those things in response to my stuff, then someone has taken over your account and you need to know about it. If not, then I found this post incredibly hypocritical after you specifically went against your postings.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:40AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You came after me just the other day to be
> specific. You put experiences into my mouth, and
> told me how I should feel about them and then
> specifically minimalized my experiences with some
> smart ass comments. When I called you on it you
> became very smug and arrogant in your responses.
> It was rude, insulting, and condescending. Just
> like your comments about reading comprehension are
> now.
>
> If you weren't posting those things in response to
> my stuff, then someone has taken over your account
> and you need to know about it. If not, then I
> found this post incredibly hypocritical after you
> specifically went against your postings.

What did I post to you? Please refresh my memory since I don't recall the incident.My comments on reading comprehension were not directed at you, BTW. The were for anon irregular



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 01:41AM by bona dea.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:47AM

I think we are both having reply problems. I was directing at SuzieQ#1 with that incident. Not you.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:49AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we are both having reply problems. I was
> directing at SuzieQ#1 with that incident. Not you.

Okay, but you did address me by name which might account for my confusion.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:52AM


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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:51AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we are both having reply problems. I was
> directing at SuzieQ#1 with that incident. Not you.


Well, all I can say is that we are not communicating very well. I'm sorry about that.
I wish you the best.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:39AM

Doesn't give them the excuse to do the opposite without someone else calling them on it.
I know how to read enough to know when someone says something somewhere and then says the complete opposite elsewhere.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:48AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't give them the excuse to do the opposite
> without someone else calling them on it.
> I know how to read enough to know when someone
> says something somewhere and then says the
> complete opposite elsewhere.

Once again. please show me the exchange that so insulted you.The one where I put words in your mouth, belittled you etc.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:48AM

See above.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 04:27AM

Understand, raptorjesus, that with these two, its not the thought that counts. Its the number of hits their posts get.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 07:10AM by Timothy.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:56AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doesn't give them the excuse to do the opposite
> without someone else calling them on it.
> I know how to read enough to know when someone
> says something somewhere and then says the
> complete opposite elsewhere.

It's easy to get confused in the threads.
It's Ok.


I made my points as well as I could in the OP.
We all experience Mormonism differently. One person's experiences does not invalidate another experiences.
They are just..... different. It's OK.
There are many reasons why our experiences are different: age, life style, where we live, how we were raised, our family, our personalities, our backgrounds, our education, and dozens of other reasons.
We are all different.

Thousand apologies if you feel I offended you in any way.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 02:02AM

Thank you.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 02:04AM

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you.

Good. I finally figured out what you needed. Sorry it took me so long, It got confusing.:-) I really don't intend to offend anyone.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 08:15PM

Those comments are obvious. I just made it clear that all experiences are valid. Again.
Read carefully, please.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 09:50PM


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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 09:12PM

"The Church" is something different, something very personalized to each member. "The Church" is a concept in their minds where they cherry pick the things they love and form them into a warm, fuzzy, emotion-evoking blankie. "I know the Church is true," really means, "I love the religion I've created."

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Posted by: seymour ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:35AM

This is an excellent point. Harold Bloom wrote a book, "The American Religion," that mentions this very thing. He points out that so many of the "American" religions (Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) are really just individuals having individual experiences and claiming individual, personal relationships with God.

The personal religion you refer to (picking and choosing beliefs) has actually been labeled Sheila-ism.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Sheilaism

In essence, there are not just a handful of American brand religions, but a separate religion for each individual.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 02:02AM

seymour Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is an excellent point. Harold Bloom wrote a
> book, "The American Religion," that mentions this
> very thing. He points out that so many of the
> "American" religions (Mormonism, Seventh-day
> Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.) are really
> just individuals having individual experiences and
> claiming individual, personal relationships with
> God.
>
> The personal religion you refer to (picking and
> choosing beliefs) has actually been labeled
> Sheila-ism.
>
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Sheilaism
>
> In essence, there are not just a handful of
> American brand religions, but a separate religion
> for each individual.


Fascinating analysis. I have not heard of that before. But it does explain a lot of what I observed and experienced.
I learn something new almost every day reading this board. Thanks for that contribution !

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 08:09AM

So when we say the church is guilty of X, they reply, "Not the church I know. You're just making that up." If it doesn't make them feel good, it's not part of their concept of "The Church," therefore it's not real to them.

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Posted by: wine country girl (channeling Rodney King) ( )
Date: November 13, 2010 09:56PM


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Posted by: SweetZ ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 02:29AM


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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 03:55AM

Some mormons are sheltered from the much of the seamy side of mormonism if they're involved as adults, live in progressive wards in areas outside of Utah, and have the kinds of talents and personalities that the mormon church favors.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 07:21AM

Some just seem to think their experiences are more valid than others.

Timothy

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 08:14AM

is how those who had healthy happy memories in mormonism need so much time and put out so much energy to recover. And their recovery involves convincing others that the mild pleasant interpretation of all things mormon is somehow helpful to those who have and are suffering from morg mistreatment.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:29PM

Its one thing to state you're "recovered" and another to have actually done so.

Consider this:

"My process works for me. It's not the "only true way", it's my way. I do know that it works for others, family and friends, I know personally as they too have Made Peace with their life as a Mormon and all the rest of it."

Sounds like F&T meeting. If I didn't know any better - and I'm not so sure I do - I'd say someone's trying to start their own religion!

And speaking of mild and pleasant interpretations as helpful "paying it forward" see if you remember this (I forwarded a copy to you at the poster's request):

"Hi Timothy

I want to thank you for stepping into the thread last night that was a continuation of Suzie Q's thread of "I know I'm out" etc. I guess some thought that thread was designed just to attack her, but I saw it as an ongoing conversation to the original thread that had been closed.

Anyway...I have my own issues with the postings of Suzie Q. I know she has done more damage to me when I first arrived at Exmormon.org. So much so I returned to church and got even more involved because of her attitude that nothing I complained about or had misgivings about were credible, that all churches do that and/or that is just the way the LDS church is so deal with it.

I know it is just not me who has felt like that, especially the new people who reach out for the first time on that board and get hit by Suzie q's live and let live policy...which to me excuses abuse, covers up the wrongs done by the church and like the LDS church, tries to rewrite reality to make people accept what their inner gut is telling them to rebel against."

That isn't the only email I've received on the matter. Its just the worst.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One cannot fully recover until one completely disconnects. Offering one's willing submission to the mormons one might "live with and love" isn't exactly what I would call "making peace with it"

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 12:31PM by Timothy.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 11:32AM

Some, like me, post here to Pay it Forward, to share our experiences of the process and in my case, I share what it means to Make Peace with all of it, or fully "recover" as some say.

My experiences with leaving the LDS Church and how I got myself Un-Mormonized (a long post I have shared a few times) was part of getting to Making Peace.

Making Peace (with your past) is a process. Making Peace with my life as a Mormon took some time. It didn't happen spontaneously, but rather quickly. It involved forgiveness, (which is a choice), changing my self talk, letting go of emotional attachments to negative experiences, which has the most amazing cleansing result. Can't change the past, so letting go of negative experiences is like a breath of fresh air. It was about not investing any more energy in holding onto anger or resentments, grudges, etc.

Most of all, Making Peace with all of my past was about taking my power back. I am the only person I can control, anyhow.

I liked being a Mormon for the most part. I like being a former Mormon much better.

My process works for me. It's not the "only true way", it's my way. I do know that it works for others, family and friends, I know personally as they too have Made Peace with their life as a Mormon and all the rest of it.

No two people live Mormonism the same, and no two Mormons leave it the same way. Clearly, it's all valid, and all part of who we are.

If I had a wish for those in the process it would be that they could also Make Peace with it.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 12:47PM

have different responses to different kinds of recovery process, or the Exit Process as I call it as that best describes how I dealt with it.

I explain what Making Peace means to me. It's not the only answer. There are as many answers as there are people in the process. I have heard others on TV and read articles that describe it differently.

The most important thing, in my experience and observation is to Own Your Own Power. Take Your Power Back and be very careful who you give it to.

Owning my own power and Making Peace with my life means to me that I don't give others the power to:(short list)

tell me I'm doing it wrong and believe them

hurt, or offend me in anyway

take their criticisms of me personally, finding fault, personally etc,
(that is about them, not me)

This is my life. I life it on my terms. I don't take life so seriously. It's just too short to live it with negativity.

"Every sixty seconds you spend angry, upset or mad, is a full minute of happiness you'll never get back.
"
My advice to anyone leaving the LDS Church: Do It Your Way, the best way you know how.
We make the best decisions with the information we have at the time. That's all any of us can do.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:01PM


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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:11PM

And, some will even go so far as to make derogatory comments and slam, and find fault with our very personal process! That is unfortunate, as it's not about: right or wrong, good or bad, etc. or doing things the way someone else wants you to. Not anymore. When you own your own power, you don't allow anyone else to tell you how to live your life! Empower yourself--have the courage to do it your way, no matter who the naysayers are! And there will be some, that's a sure bet.

"...what you want to do is get to a place where you are at peace.

Wayne Dyer Quote -

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:18PM

... then I guess that's what I want to do!

I feel more empowered already!

Timothy

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 14, 2010 01:28PM

There is no manual, no authority, no one resource that can tell you how to handle living through your process leaving the LDS Church. Those don't exist anymore. You are the only one that knows what you need to do. You hold the key. Sometimes it takes time to find the key -- it helps to read and listen to how others do it. You know your experiences and observations are valid and important to you.

But ultimately, it's your life, your process, you will make the decisions on your thoughts, behavior, actions, etc. and how you relate to others in your life and how you handle those that criticize, find fault, try to get you to change your mind, and on and on. You'll calculate the possible outcome of your actions and behavior, and make the decisions and choices that will bring the best possible outcome, if that is possible within the framework of your personal familial dynamics.

You will be the one that finds out whether taking a positive approach with love and understanding, and patience, tolerance, etc, is more productive, or whether being angry, nasty, threatening, issuing ultimatums, name calling, being derogatory allowing resentments and anger to fester, and thinking all the Mormons in your family are "less-than" because you can't control what they believe is more productive. I suspect that taking the positive approach will most likely be more productive. But it depends on the outcome you are looking for.

I'm very fortunate. I have a family that is generally supportive. There are lapses, of course. I believe strongly in the positive approach. Treat others the way we want to be treated. Love is where the power lies. Teach by example. Actions speak louder than words. Thoughts are things, people read our thoughts.

The Internet is a huge, very valuable resource also. I don't know what I would do without it. We can find the authors, books, articles, etc., that resonate with us, give us inspiration, and courage, and use them as they apply to our particular situation at the time. I have used a large variety of resources over the years to keep me focused on my process to live a joyful (filled with laughter), attitude of gratitude, fun filled life.

That's part of how I do it. Everyone else will find their own way. There is no "one true" way. I'm for encouraging others to find what works.

If nothing I say works, then ignore it. Find what you need elsewhere. We can't be everything to everyone anyhow. :-)

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