What are some good questions to get the gears grinding about the falsehood of the church? Nothing too "aggressive," just some things that will make a TBM forced to evaluate the church but not see as a threat?

Good question. I don't know, but I would love to make my TBM wife think. The problem is either she is too smart, or all my previous attempts have been too aggresive or blatant, because she knows exactly what I am doing. I need her to really think, not immediately dismiss it because she can see my motive.

what got you thinking?

For me it was the mason ceremony that they do in the temple.

then it was joseph's 30 some wives. And lying to his wife about them!

then, that is how i was told he transl. the BOM! Why is the church rewriting history?

what else are they rewriting?

I'd not ponder too much on the actual beliefs of Mormonism. Beliefs, as we know, are very deep-rooted. Rather, try to focus on the "un-Christian" bits of the Mormon church.

I'm sure you can find plenty of such examples.

Sometimes when I'm around my TBM family members I drop little bits here and there that make them question.

For example, I was driving with my TBM sister to the temple because my bro was getting married and I stopped at Starbucks and got a coffee. In passing I mentioned to my sis that our soon-to-be SIL had taken a 5 Hour Energy shot that morning so she'd have enough energy for her wedding day (I did her hair and makeup which is how I knew this). I then mentioned how "funny" it was that coffee wasn't allowed but 5 Hour Energy was. She agreed.

Another example about the WOW: my sister had told me that her TBM friends drank decaf tea (not herb tea but decaf) so we had a discussion about how confusing the WOW was because you never really knew what was ok or not. I feel a little bad about doing this to my sister but she's a smart girl so I'm sure she's thought of all this stuff on her own.

"If we don't worship Joseph Smith why do we sing 'Praise to the Man'?"

"Why do we encourage members to 'hold to the rod'? Because in Nephi's explaination of the vision those walking along the rod have not found the gospel yet. Wouldn't a better motto for members, that's consistent with Lehi's vision, be 'Stay near the tree'?"

"So what happened to all the extra wives that men already had in 1890? Did they just obsolve those marriages?"

"The General authorities always talk about the truths of the gospel that are revealed in the Book of Mormon. Lets sit down and try to find scriptures that talk about them. Lets start with Baptism for the dead and the three degrees of glory."

"Mom, Since Grandpa died a few months before I was born you always say that I got to hang out with him for a while before coming here. Do you believe that my soul did not enter my body until birth? If so that seem to go contrary to your views when we talk about abortion. Also do really believe that the pre-existence, where I was, is the same phyical place as Paradise, where Grandpa was?"

I could go on and on...

Why doesn't the church try to find a Nephite coin or other artifact to stop these pesky anti mormons....?

Is Jesus Enough?

1. Ask: "What is the gateway to the Celestial Kingdom?”

Likely Answer: “Baptism.”

Comments: Without the ordinance of baptism, a person cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. This is why this ordinance is performed in temples on behalf of those who have died.

2. Ask: “Do I have to pass a Baptismal Interview before I can be baptized?”

Likely Answer: “Yes."

Comments: The missionaries or local Bishop must interview the baptismal candidate prior his being accepted for baptism. Ask the member to review with you the questions which comprise the Baptismal Interview. Pay particular attention to the question which is worded similar to the following:

“Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?”

3. Ask: “Can I answer ‘No’ to this question and still pass the interview?”

Likely Answer: “No. Which part of the question is causing you a problem?”

4. Ask: “I don’t believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Can I still be baptized?”
Likely Answer: “No. You must accept Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God in order to be baptized.”

Let’s recap what we’ve learned:

1. A person cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without baptism
2. A person cannot be baptized without passing the Baptismal Interview
3. A person cannot pass the Baptismal Interview by answering “No” to this question.
4. Therefore, a person cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom without a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.

5. Say: “I understand now. If I want to go to the Celestial Kingdom, I have to profess a belief in Joseph Smith.”

Conclusion:

Jesus is not enough. You also have to believe in Joseph Smith in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

Secret vs. Sacred: Temple Ordinances

1. Ask: “What is the most sacred event that has ever occurred?”

Likely Answer: “The atonement of Jesus Christ.”

If the member disagrees with this answer, simply refer to:

McConkie, Bruce R. Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966.

“Nothing in the entire plan of salvation compares in any way in importance with that most transcendent of all events, the atoning sacrifice of our Lord. It is the most important single thing that has ever occurred in the entire history of created things” (p. 60).

2. Ask: “Is there anything else that even comes close to the sacredness of this event?”

Likely Answer: “No.”

3. Ask: “Was the atonement accomplished through Christ’s suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane, or on the cross, or both?”

Likely Answer: [Allow the member to relate his understanding of Christ’s suffering during the atonement. For the purposes of this discussion, it does not matter where the member believes the suffering actually occurred.]

4. Depending on his answer, ask the member:

1. “Have you ever watched a video about the atonement?”

2. “Have you ever seen a painting or picture depicting the atonement?”

3. “Have you ever heard or given a public address on the atonement?”

4. “Have you ever read a book or article about the atonement?”

5. “Have you ever talked to non-members about Christ’s atonement?”

Likely Answers: “Yes.”

Comments: For a Church-published image of Christ praying in the Garden of Gethsemane, see

http://www.lds.org/hf/art/display/1,16842,4218-1-2-70,00.html

For a Church-published image of Christ being crucified on a cross, see

http://www.lds.org/hf/art/display/1,16842,4218-1-2-73,00.html

Each of these pictures is accompanied by a detailed description of the event depicted in the image.

The image of Christ praying in the Garden of Gethsemane is accompanied by this text: “In the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus suffered for our sins … He sweat great drops of blood as He atoned for our sins” – indicating that the atonement and its requisite suffering were partially (and perhaps mainly) accomplished in the Garden.

The image of the crucifixion is accompanied by this text: “The Savior atoned for us by suffering in Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross … This great anguish [on the cross] was part of the Savior's suffering to pay for our sins” – indicating that part of Christ’s atonement was accomplished on the cross.

5. Ask: “Please describe for me the details of Christ’s suffering in the Garden, and the details of his crucifixion.”

Likely Answer: [The member describes his understanding of the details of Christ’s atonement. Encourage him to relate as many details as possible.]

6. Ask: “Do you mind discussing the details of Christ’s atonement?”

Likely Answer: “No.”

7. Ask: “Please share with me all the details of all the Mormon temple ordinances. Don’t leave anything out. I would also like to see pictures and/or a video if possible.”

Likely Answer: “I can not do that. We do not discuss details of temple ordinances outside of the temple amongst ourselves, much less among non-members. We publish no detailed descriptions, pictures or videos of the ordinances.”

8. Ask: “Why won’t you tell me in detail what goes on in the temple?”

Likely Answer: “Because we hold these things to be sacred, and we don’t discuss them outside the temple. To do so would be disrespectful of their sacred nature.”

9. Ask: “At the beginning of our conversation, you said that nothing even came close to the sacredness of Christ’s atonement (see #2 above).”

Likely Answer: “That is correct.”

10. Ask: “How can you speak so freely and openly about the most sacred event which has ever occurred (Christ’s atonement), and the Church can publish detailed descriptions of it, but at the same time refuse to publish or speak about temple ordinances which you admit are less sacred?”

Likely Answer: [Allow the member to respond.]



Conclusion:

In other words, if these ordinances are considered too sacred to discuss in detail, then Christ’s atonement must certainly be too sacred to discuss in detail. And yet, the topic of Christ’s atonement is clearly not afforded such a level of respect, as it is discussed and portrayed freely.

The “excuse” that temple ordinances are “too sacred” does not hold up under scrutiny. As such, it is not a valid excuse.

As a result of this discussion, it becomes obvious that temple ordinances are more accurately described as being “secret,” rather than “sacred.”

Polygamy in the Scriptures and in Heaven


1. Ask: “Is it true that Mormons consider the standard works to be the will, mind and voice of the Lord?”

Likely Answer: “Yes.”

Comments: If the member disagrees, simply ask them to look up Doctrine and Covenants 68:4, which reads:

“And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.”

Also, McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine:

“These four volumes of scripture are the standards, the measuring rods, the gauges by which all things are judged. Since they are the will, mind, word, and voice of the Lord (D. & C. 68:4), they are true; consequently, all doctrine, all philosophy, all history, and all matters of whatever nature with which they deal are truly and accurately presented” (pp. 764-765).

2. Ask: “Do Mormons still believe in practicing polygamy?”

Likely Answer: “No. We believe the Lord discontinued the practice in 1890.”

3. Ask: “Isn’t Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants the revelation to Joseph Smith on plural marriage?”

Likely Answer: “Yes, it is.”

4. Ask: “Is it still included in the current edition of your scriptures?”

Likely Answer: “Yes, it is.”

5. Ask: “If Mormons no longer believe in the practice of polygamy, then why is it still included in your scriptures? Why was it not removed when the practice of polygamy was discontinued?”

Likely Answer: [Allow the member to reply.]

Even though Mormons discontinued the open practice of polygamy in 1890, plural marriage is still considered a true and eternal principle.

6. Ask: “Is it true that, in the temple, a man may be sealed to another woman (if his former wife has died), but that a woman may not be sealed to another man if her former husband is dead?”

Likely Answer: “That is correct.”

This proves that Mormons still believe that plural marriage (or polygamy) is a true and eternal principle.

If the member disagrees with your statement, point out that

- Apostle Dallin H. Oaks was sealed to his second wife, Kristen McMain, in 2000.

- Apostle Russell M. Nelson was sealed to his second wife, Wendy L. Watson, in the Salt Lake Temple on April 6, 2006.

7. Ask: “So, in the Celestial Kingdom, a man who has been sealed to more than one woman on this earth will actually have multiple wives in the eternities. Is this correct?”

Likely Answer: “Yes.”

8. Ask: “So, polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom, presumably with God’s full approval. Is this correct?”

Likely Answer: “Yes."


Conclusion:

Even though Mormons persist in their denial of polygamy, it is still accepted as a true and eternal principle. Based upon the rules of temple sealing, it is clear that Mormons expect polygamy to be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. The revelation on polygamy is still printed in their scriptures, and modern-day Apostles have been sealed to more than one woman in the temple.

Joseph Smith's Plural Wives


1. Ask: “How many plural wives did Joseph Smith have?"

Likely Answer: “I don’t know. We don’t practice polygamy anymore.”

Be prepared for the member to point out that, since 1890, the LDS Church no longer practices polygamy. Stress that this is not the point. Members revere Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. You are inquiring about his character and actions.

2. Ask: “Joseph Smith had at least 33 plural wives. Can you name any of them?”

Likely Answer: “No.”

See Compton, Todd. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1997. Also, check out the Church’s own website, www.familysearch.org.

3. Ask: “Did Joseph engage in sexual relations with any of his wives?”

Likely Answer: [The member may not know, and may suggest that Joseph did not have sex with his plural wives. Mormon folklore incorrectly teaches that plural wives were most often “old widows” who needed someone to look after them, and that these marriages did not include a sexual dimension.]

4. Ask: “What does the Book of Mormon teach about polygamy?”

Likely Answer: “The Book of Mormon teaches this:

Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:26-30).”



Important:

Notice that the Book of Mormon records God saying that these things are “an abomination”. The only time he allows polygamy is in order to “raise up seed” – in other words, to have children. And this requires sexual intercourse.

So, according to the Book of Mormon, we can not righteously practice polygamy without having sexual intercourse.

5. Ask: “So, if the only reason God allows polygamy is to ‘raise up seed,’ and raising up seed requires sexual intercourse, how could Joseph possibly practice polygamy righteously without having sexual relations with his plural wives?”

Likely Answer: [Allow the member to explain.]

6. Ask: “What were the ages of Joseph’s 33 plural wives?”

Likely Answer: [The member may not know, and may ask why you think this is important.] It is important because, as you will point out, 11 (that’s a full one-third) of his wives were between the ages of 14 and 20 when he married them (see Compton, p. 11). These figures contradict the teachings of Mormon folklore that plural wives were simply “old widows.”

Here’s the breakdown:

• 11 were aged 14 to 20
• 9 were aged 21 to 30
• 8 were aged 31 to 40 (Smith’s own age group)
• 2 were aged 41 to 50
• 3 were aged 51 to 60”

8. Ask: “Isn’t it illegal for a man in his 30s to have sexual relations with a girl less than 17 years of age?”

Likely Answer: [The member may suggest that Joseph didn’t have sexual relations with these girls.]

There is abundant evidence to establish that Joseph did engage in sexual relations with these girls while they were still underage teenagers. Joseph’s only legal wife, Emma, caught Joseph in the barn with 16-year-old Fanny Algers. Several of these girls later testified under oath that they had sexual relations with Joseph. Again, as we pointed out previously, according to the Book of Mormon, how could Joseph justify these marriages without having sexual intercourse? (See Compton).

9. Ask: “Wasn’t Warren Jeffs doing this same sort of thing? He was arrested and placed in prison recently, wasn’t he?”

Warren Jeffs was the leader of the FLDS cult in Texas. His group is a Mormon Fundamentalist group. Mormon Fundamentalists believe in practicing Mormonism closer to the way Joseph Smith actually taught and practiced it.

Where are the Maps?


1. Ask: “Is the Book of Mormon comparable to the Bible?”

Likely Answer: “Yes. We believe the Book of Mormon is a volume of scripture, comparable to the Bible.”

2. Ask: “My Bible has lots of maps. I don’t see any in the Book of Mormon. Why is that? Where are the maps?”

Likely Answer: [Allow the member to explain.]

The Bible records real events that took place in real places. Many places named in the Bible have been positively located, excavated and mapped. You can actually visit these places (like Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Nazareth).

The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is fiction. The events and the places where they supposedly occurred are not real, and consequently can not be located. After 180 years, no city mentioned in the Book of Mormon has been positively identified -- neither has there been found any indisputable archeological evidence of any kind.

Conclusion:

That is why there are no maps. These places never really existed.

Prophets and Prophesy


1. Ask: “Is your church led by a prophet?”

Likely Answer: “Yes. God has blessed us with prophets to guide His church in these latter days.”

2. Ask: “Who is the current prophet?”

Likely Answer: “His name is Thomas S. Monson.”

3. Ask: “Please share with me JUST THREE of your favorite prophecies from Mr. Monson.”

Likely Answer: [The member may not be able to do so. He may give the excuse that Monson has only been a prophet for a short while.]

4. Ask: “I understand. Well then, who was the prophet before Monson?”

Likely Answer: “His name was Gordon B. Hinckley.”

5. Ask: “Was he considered to be a great prophet?”

Likely Answer: “Absolutely. Hinckley served faithfully for decades. He was one of our most beloved and respected prophets”

6. Ask: “Great. Please share with me JUST THREE of your favorite prophecies from Mr. Hinckley.”

Likely Answer: [Again, it is doubtful that the member will be able to do this.]

7. Ask: “Well, exactly how many prophets has the church had since Joseph Smith?”

Likely Answer: “Monson is the 16th president/prophet/leader of the Church. There have been 15 prophets since Joseph Smith.”

8. Ask: “Can you name your favorite prophecies from any of these men?”

Likely Answer: [The member probably can not.]



Conclusion:

Mormons like to talk about and revere their marvelous “prophets”; but when it comes right down to it, these men rarely, if ever, prophesy about anything – especially the more recent “prophets.”

For me it wasn't as much the questions that people asked it was the attitude of growing up in a small farm town where everyone was Mormon. Why would gods chosen people act the way they do to each other. Why would some be blessed more than others, when you knew that they weren't any better than anyone else. I guess the thing that really got to me was the day that I overheard two prominent women in the church talking bad about my mom, when they noticed I was there they whispered to each other "Shhhhh that is one of her kids" Really brings home the scripture "By their works ye shall know them"

My favorite:
"Who was Oliver Granger?"

See D&C 117 and my article at http://packham.n4m.org/granger.htm