I have a very famous Mormon friend who is more than questioning, BIG TIME. If he left the church it would be quite the story and those who didn't shun him may be temped to follow him out. He's teetering on the edge and has been for a long time, but is scared witless about the consequences for himself and his family if he did. Also, he doesn't think anyone who has left is truly happy, just bitter and trying to prove they did the right thing. What would happen to him? Would he be exed? Would the mass exit of mormon fans be made up by the masses who aren't mormons? Would he ever recover, his family recover? Would it be worth it? If I download info on him will he hate me for what it does to him when he can't live the lie publicly anymore? I'm not sure I want to be the one to reel this big fish in. Kind of want to wash my hands of it. As it is, he is lauded and praised. A good old fashioned fake life with all its bells and whistles. Any advice?

I'm not sure what you mean by "download info" on him. I'm taking it to mean you are thinking of "outing" him as a non-believer?

I wouldn't do that.

It's up to each individual to decide if and when the time is right for them to speak up for themselves.

It sounds like his doubts and questions and hesitations are similar to those of many former Mormons. He may well find that reading the bios on this board, at least, resonate with his own experiences and thoughts.

It takes time to decompress and formulate new opinions that come from gaining insights after looking at things from a different perspective. For instance, it's a Mormon myth (or desperate ploy) that former members are not happy and are seeking self-justification for having left. It's just another scare tactic to keep people in out of fear, not an admirable way to retain members and not a great way to keep one's commitment level high.

I hope your friend eventually figures out the right thing for himself and his family. It would be great if you could be supportive without pushing him, especially not by taking it upon yourself to out him, if that's what you were thinking of doing. It's up to him and his family to sort that out for themselves.

No, I would never "out" this person. Never. I agree it takes time to process and I'm not sure it would be best for him/her to ever take the plunge. Could be more than could be handled in this situation. I was just meaning downloading enough information that doubts would no longer be doubts, and living the lie could become most difficult...as I know all too well. Not sure which life, the truth or the lie, is better. And I want for this person the best life possible. Being born into this Mormon life and building a whole exterior/interior life around it feels like being stolen before you have a chance to think, and by the time you do, it's too late. There is too much to lose.

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate it. (Lol, can't share his name - didn't even mean to make him a "he", but wrote too late last night/morning to cover it clearly.)

We talk, a lot. He started his path to discover through a exmo friend before I became his friend. He started my questioning and I kept looking, but he didn't for years. Now he is again, taking a step into the light only to run back into mormonland the moment truth starts shining in. Mostly I hold my tongue and just let him talk, but it's getting old. THERE IS SO MUCH INFORMATION that I just want to pile on him, dump it like the sh*t it is. But there really is a lot for him to lose. That and everytime he gets close to just admitting it's all a fabrication, he decides that the devil is after him and he starts fasting and going to the temple and giving more money.

I'm wondering about emailing him (anon) and outing the CHURCH. He knows I don't believe. But I don't want to be the reason he doesn't. That and when I unearth a lie for him, he defends the church--and then looks into it--but not before thinking I'm the devil's pawn out to destroy his faith. But he keeps returning for more info and it's getting old. He doesn't believe. He knows he doesn't. He is just to scared to find the truth and live what comes after.

I guess that's my answer. He knows. If he decides to "know" more...or live truth, he will. Other than that, I'll just hit him over the head next time he leads into "the church".

Anon this time Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That and everytime he gets close to just admitting it's all a fabrication, he decides that the devil is after him and he starts fasting and going to the temple and giving more money.

You might start with the concept of the devil, then. I can tell you that you rarely hear mention of the devil in mainstream Christian churches. Yet the Mormons seem obsessed with him. Why is this? Yet another control mechanism?

Look into the origins of Satan/Lucifer and how the concept was merged with the poor little pagan god Pan at one point (if memory serves correctly.) See if you can educate your friend about this.

I feel sorry for your friend. He has been conditioned by the Mormon church to be very fearful.

difficult no matter how you paint it.

People do change their minds about things when they get older. nothing wrong with that.

This person may be surprised how many people would admire his courage.

There are no certain guarantees in life. I have always found it best not to live a lie. May be some fall out initially. but such a relief to be true to self.Just ask a gay person who has come out,or a spouse who just has to come clean about their beliefs. Living a lie eats at you and wastes precious time you will never get back.

surround yourself with people you can trust (for moral support)then do what you have to do. Good luck, hope you are happier.

I know plenty of people who don't have a testimony of the church but choose to stay because of various outside pressures - family, friends, employers, etc. If the consequences are too great, he'll probably stay wether he believes or not. It takes an unbelievably strong person to be able to leave. Living a lie destroys people.

Anyway, as far as destroying his testimony - does he WANT to know? I've had a few friends who have said if the church wasn't true they wouldn't want to know. So I keep my mouth shut in those instances.

I don't think you can be ex'd just for disbelief. I think you have to publicly apostasize.

Every person's situation is different. For me, leaving the church was the best decision for myself (mental, emotional, even physical well-being). The hell I went through getting out was worth it in the long run and I've never been happier :) I do hope the same for your friend if he chooses that path, but he needs to know how extraordinarily difficult it can be.

You can be ex'd for whatever reason the Bishop / Stake President see fit to disclose. I've heard made up stories about "distributing anti-Mormon material" when in reality they probably did no more than share a URL. Just being on this site is enough to excommunicate every one of us who is currently a member.

Personally, I think he would. The fallout would be too big for there to not be "a reason" to cover it with. I think the shame factory would come out full steam.

Just be a supportive friend and understand that he will do whatever he decides in his own time. It's okay to encourage him and let him know how you feel about things, but I don't think it's okay to go at him with an agenda or an intention to try to force him -- especially if you're more interested in the potential fallout than in his well-being.

ONLY ONLY ONLY concerned with his well-being. God I hate this church.

Show him happy people who are not members of the Corp. They're all around us...

Wash your hands of it. It's his life.

Judging from my own experience, my biggest fear was that I would be wrong and would throw away my salvation or be a daughter of perdition. I had to get to the point where I could say I tried the best I could to figure out what was real. If God was a just, all-knowing being He'd know that I did my very best to discover the truth and He'd understand why I reached the conclusion that I did. On the other hand, if he punished me for making an honest mistake, or withheld information that would show the way (including the testimony I desperately sought), and then blamed me for going astray, He wasn't a God worth worshiping.

So I guess I'm saying your friend might need help overcoming the fears so he can think freely. Maybe he would find Steven Hassan's book Combatting Cult Mind Control helpful, or some books on Emotional control/manipulation/abuse so he could see how unhealthy the social dynamics are in the church.

I wouldn't out him. That wouldn't be fair to him. He may need to stay in for social/familial reasons.

What I would do is be a good listener when he needs to confide in you. I would only impart information a very little bit at a time, as he is ready to hear it. I would also explain to him that there are plenty of happy people outside of the church (both exmos and nevermos.) Tell him that it's *the church* that would have him believe otherwise.

You said he was "scared witless" over the consequences of leaving. What about the consequences of NOT leaving?

What about raising another generation of kids in the church who are afraid of thinking for themselves? Who make decisions based on social pressures and acceptance? Who are afraid to ask question or think rationally? Who live their lives to gain the always-provisional approval of ward members and an invisible being in hopes of a reward in an unseen afterlife?

There is a big world out there in nevermo land. The world isn't the big bad place we were raised to fear. There are educated, loving, wonderful people out there. Mormon society is a judgmental system of control rather than a safe haven. Why else would he be so afraid to reveal his true self?

Don't worry - I won't tell anyone. RfM critics won't admit they've been here. and TBMs aren't supposed to be here anyway.

So he's safe.

It is a fair bet that you know what it feels like to be in his shoes. A lot of us know. You can't talk to nonmember friends 'cuz they don't understand and you can't talk to members 'cuz they will turn on you, and you definitely cannot talk to family. It is a very lonely place to sit in utter blackness in church completely alone next to you family and neighbors.

Would you have liked to be thrown into the fire during a particularly painful point in your life, or had a safe shoulder you could lean upon?

People in his spot feel that they/we are standing in a doorway at the edge of the blackest pit. What they need more than to be thrown in, is to have a friend help them to safely and confidently find the lightswitch.

IF HE ASKS YOU, of course you will tell him.

It does not good to email someone a bunch of links or print out stuff because, as we have all experienced, until a person is open to the new information, they literally will not hear it.

When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

When your friend wants to know, he is as far away from truth as his keyboard. Just say "Mormonthink" to him. He goes there or he doesn't, totally up to him.

You can do more harm than good by assuming someone is ready to learn that their whole life has been predicated on lies.

Best

Anagrammy

Thanks, Ana. Can you be my grammy? You rock, wise lady.

From my experience, in almost ALL cases, people are glad to know the truth and to be out of the cult. Its usually a hard, bumpy road at first but in the end its all for the better. If him leaving will help others open their eyes then I definitely think its worth it.

YES, please show him the truth. EVERYONE has the right to know! What they decide to do with the truth is up to them but they have a right to not be stuck in the dark.


THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!

Meant for the message to come at the end, but it loaded above.

Thanks again for your advice. The truth does set you free. But some people still want the cage. I'm glad I'm flying instead. So much more to see from up here!

People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. I don't think you need to let Mormon thinking go unchallenged, and I don't think you need to hide things from people to protect a cherished delusion.

But having said that, this person just like anyone else has the right to listen to you or not, and to hang around you or not. So you just ask them, "If the church wasn't true would you want to know?" And as a follow up, "If it wasn't true, how would you know?" Because he's still going to believe despite all the evidence until he sees through the whole feeling=knowing thing.

As far as the impact on his professional life, I very much doubt that would come up at all. Unless his whole public image is based around his Mormonism? I'd be much more concerned about family and friend issues than a backlash from Mormon fans.

They expect me to try to convert them out of the church.

It's amazing how hard they work to seduce people into the church, but I've realized from day one that people need to find their own paths on their own time.

I like Goldenrules advice. All that matters is if he wants to know. If he wants to, he's ready. And there's an easy way to find out if he wants to know - ask him. Just a simple question "do you want me to tell you what I know about church history or not? I respect it if you don't. There are some difficult issues." That's enough to get his wheels turning that you know a lot more than you're saying, and protects you from being the bad guy for the info dump. It also offers a way out for him, which is important to emphasize because not everyone can handle it, or are ready for it. It also makes the decision his.

You can let him know that you are available as a resource person if he is interested. Then let it go.

Only he can know when he is ready to learn more.

Ask him if he wants to know what you know and then respect his decision.If he says 'no', let him know that you will be available if he changes his mind.

Call him on his BS about apostates.

If people want to stay in, that's fine and their business. But the myths about people who leave need to be kicked in the crotch.

Don't ever let a well deserved kick needing crotch go unkicked.

It's his fear of the "bitter, evil, constantly agnry, unhappy apostates" that keep him from at least making his own choices.

And that whole premise is a complete lie.

I'm sorry but for me, I simply COULD NOT stand up in front of God & everyone and say "I know the church is true & Joseph Smith is a prophet."

I mean, if he/she is ok with lying in public, then fine.

See this is what I think is happening in the minds of more than a few people, including some "famous" mormons...they are churning through the stuff that is un-churnable, not digestible.

They don't know what to do, they keep standing up in general conference, or appearing before Piers Morgan and end up saying rather nice things about their church...but inside they are in turmoil.

They are worried about their tenure in the quorum, their retirement, their health insurance, or their piece of their father's empire (inheritance). They know who they are. They read some of this stuff, at least sometimes.

Grow a set! Be you! Be true! Stand for something! This lie will continue and people will keep getting hurt unless people like you come out. Nobody is going to believe any of us. But you are in the position you are in for a reason...it just wasn't the reason you first thought it was...think about it...

Elcid, I so agree with this. Exactly agree. People have got to grow a pair.

The church is like quicksand. It swallows you whole, and generations after you. Your told the lie and not choosing the lie, you lie unknowlingly. You lie and lie and lie, and benefit from the lie until one day you discover it's a lie. Then you feel like your whole life is a lie, and if you stop telling the lie you lose everything that came from it. (Think of all the benefits Tom Cruise would lose if he left Scientology.) Kind of strips your soul because you choose that "good" over the truth, and you sell the souls of your children to it, because...to admit the lie means to lose the "good" and "nice".For those who are in the cult this deep, and are reps of it--really--whether or not it's official, being stripped of your "honor" and connections and the risk of having your name smeared my the machine (and it would be, ask Steve and Martha) takes a pretty big set.

Thing is, I think there would be more respect in the end. I think church sheep would trample away, but others in the church would wake-up and thank him. And the world would take him even more seriously. In the end, he'd win. I think. But I don't know. Can't judge it because it's not me sitting in that position. I think he'll stay just where he is, personally. He'll dance the dance until he dies, and he'll teach the dance to his children and grandchildren, and he'll extol the benefits of the dance. And the church will continue to fail...and his grandchildren will wiseup and leave for him. And maybe he'll smile at their courage.

Thanks again for the insight and thoughts. I've decided to leave him to himself. I'll keep being his friend. I'll listen and give truth, but I'm not going to give him anything he doesn't ask for or lead him anywhere. And whatever he does with his life, lie or truth--courage or coward, he'll have one person who he can be honest with, who gets it.

P.S. Loved the comment about never wasting a good kick to the crotch. Lol!

I agree with the good advice that he will find the information when he is ready. Directing him to mormonthink is a very good idea.

What he is looking for is assurance that his life is not over. I read lots of posts by people who express the joy of life once they are no longer ruled by the morg. Maybe print off some of the exit stories and posts that deal with this aspect of leaving the morg. Stories where people have better family lives because they actually spend time together not just time in the church.

Show him that the life he could chose will rewarding.

He does sound like a frightened bunny, bolting back to his burrow and blaming it all on satan.

If he defends the church when you bring up something like polyandry or anything for that matter...then he simply isn't ready. Let him come to you with questions...and I'd say only answer the question at hand. Kinda like telling a child about where babies come from. Milk before meat works on both sides of the fence.