Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between "lack of belief in any gods" vs. "asserting that no gods exist?"

It's a simple yes or no answer.

No, it is pretty much the same thing IMO. The fact is, in either case, you don't know for sure.If you don't know it is a belief, an opinion or whatever you want to call it.

Ok, so you believe that "not collecting stamps" is a hobby?


You saying there's no difference between lacking a belief in any gods vs. asserting no gods exist means that you assert that the christian god is not real because I've heard you say many times you don't believe jesus was of divine origin.

So what do you base your assertion that the christian god isn't real on? How do you prove a negative?

How do you prove Zeus isn't real? How do you prove Tehlu isn't real?

I'm curious. You're making a lot of assertions here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2011 12:19PM by kolobian.

Of course not and that is a stupid analogy. Anything you assert,subscribe to or think to be true is your belief. That includes atheism. It may not be a belief system with rules and dogma but it is nontheless a belief.You think/believe/assert/opine there is no God. That is a belief by any definition of the word and to say it is not is redefining the word in a very narrow sense.Playing semantic games is silly, IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2011 12:22PM by bona dea.

You're creating a straw argument and you know it.

I do not assert that no gods exist. How could I possibly know? I repeat, I do not assert that no gods exist.

I simply do have have a belief or pretend that any gods exist because there isn't sufficient evidence.

Do you really not see the distinction? Or are you so set on using the dishonest evangelical argument that atheism is a belief system?

No, I am not creating a straw man, but you are playing fast and loose with definitions. A belief is something you think is true. You think there is no God. Ergo, that is your belief. End of story. I have to much to do today to continue this. If you want to play word games, feel free, but I'm not playing.

I am certainly not an evangelical and there is a difference between a belief and a belief system and I made that clear. Atheism is not a belief system, but it is a belief.A religion is a belief system. An opinion on whether extra terrestial life or the Loch Ness Monster exists, for instance, is a belief.A BELIEF IS AN OPINION.Really, it isn't that hard to understand.

I don't believe there are no gods. Is that clear enough? I have no reason to believe there are no gods.

I also have no reason to believe there are.

Where does that leave me? In the default position. That's basic logic, Bona Dea.

I neither believe in any gods, nor do I believe that no gods exist.

That makes me an atheist. A-theist. I'm not playing fast and loose with definitions. I've always made this very clear.

So I ask again, do you NOW see there is a difference between "lacking belief in any gods" vs. "asserting that no gods exist?"

:snort: :D

Is an empty glass still holding something? If an object is sitting still is it moving? If I turn off a light, is it still lite?

The answer to all these is no... In the same way I hold no beliefs about god. I am an atheist. I do not "believe" that there is no god, I have no beliefs about any deity.

Put it another way... Is there such a phenomena as "cold"? No, not in the scientific sense. You can only measure heat, you can register a reduction of heat, but that is not "cold" it is simply a lower amount of heat. Cold is not just a different form of heat, it is a label that non-scientists assign to the lack of or a reduction of heat... At absolute 0 there no heat at all and to try and say there is any shows a lack of understanding of what heat is.

In the same way, an atheist has no belief. There is nothing to measure there because it's not there. To call a lack of something, "something" is just wrong. We may label it atheism, just like we label "cold", but that doesn't make something it's not.

That is not the same thing and I think you know it. A belief is an opinion.It is not the same thing as a formal belief system. Your views on God are an opinion. What part of that do you not understand? If you had no belief you would have no opinion on the subject at all and, even that, is still a belief of sort.Everything you think is a belief by definition.

It is the same thing and i know it. I don't have an opinion about god(s) at all... Re-read what Kolobian wrote "I neither believe in any gods, nor do I believe that no gods exist." that is NO opinion. By your own definition it's different. You are the one ascribing opinions to us.

My belief glass is empty. My god belief thermometer is at 0 degrees. I have no opinion one way or the other. I choose to live my life without an opinion of god, which has been pointed out, is how I was born until someone introduced religion to me.

Do I feel strongly about that definition? You betcha... I do not want to be lumped in with the "believers". It is different and that difference matters.

Is an empty glass still holding something? Yes, an empty glass is full of space, if you think space is nothing please research spacetime.
If an object is sitting still is it moving? Yes, all objects in the universe are moving relative to something.
If I turn off a light, is it still lite? Maybe, are there other lights on? Are you outside on a bright sunny day?

+1

+1

I'm not an expert, but isn't it black and white or binary thinking to say since you don't believe in a god it means you believe there isn't one? Fowler's stage three thinking perhaps?

Isn't this just semantics?

In the end, I'm not sure it matters whether Bona or Kolobian or I win the argument about whether or not the absence of a belief is really a belief or not.

The average person on the street does recognize a difference, so in my opinion it is smart when communicating with others to recognize that.

People who paint themselves into corners deserve to ruin their shoes.

onendagus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not an expert, but isn't it black and white or
> binary thinking to say since you don't believe in
> a god it means you believe there isn't one?

It is black and white thinking at its most black and white.

Another example would be if someone was never taught about the concept of god. This person, having no concept of god has no belief on the subject one way or the other, they lack any belief on the subject, they lack a belief in God because they don't even know the concept. Is this person denying the existence of God? I don't think so. There is a lot of stuff I don't believe in that I don't deny.

I believe that Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus, Zeus etc are myths. That is my belief. Geez, People, it is pretty simple. You got any studies on what the average person thinks about this? I doubt it. How about using the dictionary definition and separating the idea of belief/opinion which atheism is from a belief system which it is not?

Let's try this another way.

1. I do not assert or believe that no gods exist.
There, now that's clarified. You can no longer pretend that I believe no gods exist. Good.

2. I do not have a belief in any gods. There, now that's clarified.

I make no assertions about gods.

I have no beliefs.

Ok?

Perhaps you're thinking of atheistic agnosticism.

Definitions don't matter? I thought that's what this whole debate was about.

Perhaps you don't understand that most theists are agnostic, meaning they don't "KNOW" there is a god (gnosis = to know, knowing, knowledge) but they choose to pretend or believe there is (theism = belief in a god or gods).

Obviously I'm agnostic because you can't prove a negative. I can't know that no gods exist.

I'm also atheist because I do NOT believe in a god or gods. I am NOT a theist.

I take the default position.

Perhaps you didn't read all my other posts in this thread?

That's almost the dictionary definition of atheistic agnosticism or, in other words, agnostic atheism.

There is just as much evidence for their existance as for the christian god.


People who paint themselves into corners deserve to ruin their shoes.

What about this:

Two people are running for president. I haven't decided who is the better candidate. Since I'm not picking candidate A, does that mean by default I endorse candidate B?

This is from Webster. Like many words there are varying definitions. Atheism fits some of these definitions of belief whether you want to acknowledge it or not.



1

: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing


2

: something believed; especially: a tenet or body of tenets held by a group


3

: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence


See belief defined for English-language learners »


See belief defined for kids »


Examples of BELIEF

There is growing belief that these policies will not succeed.
He gets angry if anyone challenges his religious beliefs.
We challenged his beliefs about religion.


Origin of BELIEF

Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan— more at believe
First Known Use: 12th century

None of those examples applies to "lack of a belief in any gods"

Of course it does. Sigh. I'm done. You are giving me a headache. LOL

1

: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Nope.


2

: something believed; especially: a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

Nope. No belief here. That's the point.


3

: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Nope. Not making any assertions about any being or phenomenon.