I think about Joe's secret polygamy and then I look at how I see some in the "heathen" ways of today, the openness of some marriages, dating relationships and all the partners most people have before they actually marry. I realize that in essence, Joe didn't do anything more than many today. While seen as horrid for his day, today, it would be shrugged off.

So I ask, why does the secret polygamy bother exmos?

but it is all too mind boggling for me.

This is one thing I do know--I've shared my husband with other men. I will NEVER be in another relationship where I share my SO with some other person(s). It isn't fun.

BUT the situation with JS is so wrong on so many levels--I don't even want to try to explain why it disturbs me.

It was the hypocrisy and the lying bothered me the most.

Now of course the church would rather tell a lighter version of the whole deal and I can understand that. But what bothered me the most was that the leaders of the church were lying about it even to the point of excommunicating those who openly engaged in it. On the same days that Hyrum or Joseph would be publicly preaching and condemning the practice, Joseph or Hyrum would be sealing a poly marrage in the temple.

Probably the next thing was just how deep the deception ran among the "Lords Annointed" as they said one thing while doing quite another in secret and in Mexico or Canada where the US laws can't reach them. So despite being the perfect Lords servants and being directly led by Christ, they were lying and deceiveing not only the government but also their own people, and those they were trying to lure from Europe.

Meanwhile, any member found to be a liar or a thief was to be punished. And yet, the supposedly holy temple ceremony no matter how they spin its importance, is really just a holdover from polygamy where the Lords House was being used to commit whoredoms and to inspire a life of absolute secrecy, lest they get in trouble for their actions.

As for Polygamy itself, many cultures do it and many spouses here cheat on each other all the time, but Polygamy was foisdted upon the people as a supposed commandment from God yet it brought heartache, despair, lying, dishonesty, shame, and generations later people are still trapped in a living hell.

I do sympathize with the manifesto folks who were told that they had to give up their families, and I don't blame them one bit for going underground, but none of that suffering was necessary nor would have occured if their leaders were living the Gospel.

I had ALWAYS understood that the manifesto ONLY applied to new ceremonies.... NOT to existing marriages.

Hasn't this also been the ChurchCo position?

But there could have been bishops in isolated areas who didn't get the word and had to rely on their own judgement or personal relelations to determine local policy.

The historic record confirms that Joeseph Smith claimed that he was commanded by God to enter into polygamous relationships. If that were true, I would be more impacted by God's attitude than Joseph's conduct.

What kind of God contradicts Himself and commands his prophet to marry another man's wife? Having an intimate relationship with someone's spouse is a violation of God's own 7th commandment. Joseph Smith had at least 10 polyandrous relationships with other men's wives.

What kind of God commands a multi-married middle aged man to marry a virgin teenager? Does not God love and want the best for Helen Mar Kimball (the 14 year old girl in question) as much as He loves Joseph? Is it even conceivable that God would reward a 36 year old prophet by giving the prophet sex with a 14 year old girl?

In my view, Mormons, in defending polygamy, must attempt to defend a God who is inconsistent, willing to abuse his daugthers, disrespects the institution of marriage and apparently considers sex with teenagers a reasonable blessing to bestow upon the leaders of his church.

That's what bothered me and my inability / unwillingness to consider God in that light is why I resigned.

The attitude is still evident in the mormon church. They keep their unpopular ideas and practices secret and hold out a contradictory pr banner for public view.

I've noticed that when the women involved talk about being a pleural wife, they usually say it's because of their faith and that they know God wants it for them.

What bothers me most is that the women are indoctrinated so deeply that that becomes the reason they do it. They think God is blessing them, etc.

They don't seem to realize that they can have women friends that give support and care for each others children without having to allow a man to dip into the friends pants. They are TAUGHT to think they have to sacrifice having a man all to themselves to get the support and companionship they want.

The man acts like it is so hard to prowl for more women while being married. Give me a break. The hard part is getting your wife to allow it. Indoctrination is the perfect solution.

These women do not have the self esteem to realize they don't need to share a penis to form groups for support. They fight the jealousy and compete for the man's favor (of course he is going to love that). It's really harmful to women yet they are convinced it is what God wants them to do.

Women often want the resources and genes of the alpha male. They will share the alpha male to get the security. This has been used by powerful men to get access to lots of sex- and indoctrination is an effective way to justify it.

I don't think the idea of polygamy is necessarily evil; any arrangement made between consenting adults of sound mind is their prerogative, provided nobody's liberties are tramples upon in the process.

Compelling anyone into a relationship that they do not want is abuse, however, as is marrying young girls under the age of consent. Marrying other men's wives without their knowledge and without the consent of all parties is abhorrent, and attempting to hide your misconduct with lies, deceptions and intimidation is criminal. It seems to me that the church's practice of polygamy was immoral, but polygamy itself may not be conceptually wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 10:11AM by homo sapiens maximus.

I never said that. What I said was:

"It seems to me that the church's practice of polygamy was immoral."

For me it was the mathematical impossibility of polygamy. Humans reproduce at roughly 50% male and 50% female. Polygamy can only exist in a community that artificially changes this ratio, allows polyandry, or has massive amounts of unmarried males. Or any combination of the three.

"I realize that in essence, Joe didn't do anything more than many today. While seen as horrid for his day, today, it would be shrugged off."

Um, what sort of society are you living in? Citizens of the Free World are imprisoned for the rape of 14, 15, and 16-year olds. Polygamy is against the law, and it was also against the law in Joesph Smith's day. Marrying someone else's wife is bigamy, and marrying several other men's wives is polygandry. These also are punishable by law. Adultery is legal grounds for divorce, then and now. What about pedophilia?

One of the main objections I have to the Mormon cult, is that they do, indeed "shrug off" the abuse and molestation of women and children. This happened to me, personally, and also to my children, and to many others as well. American society in general punishes these offenses.

Man, where do you live?

forestpal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I realize that in essence, Joe didn't do anything
> more than many today. While seen as horrid for his
> day, today, it would be shrugged off."
>
> Um, what sort of society are you living in?
> Citizens of the Free World are imprisoned for the
> rape of 14, 15, and 16-year olds. Polygamy is
> against the law, and it was also against the law
> in Joesph Smith's day. Marrying someone else's
> wife is bigamy, and marrying several other men's
> wives is polygandry. These also are punishable by
> law. Adultery is legal grounds for divorce, then
> and now. What about pedophilia?
>
> One of the main objections I have to the Mormon
> cult, is that they do, indeed "shrug off" the
> abuse and molestation of women and children. This
> happened to me, personally, and also to my
> children, and to many others as well. American
> society in general punishes these offenses.
>
> Man, where do you live?


Ok, good point. I did gloss over that--I don't condone his actions with teen girls in the least.

...many of which were financial in nature, but ultimately all relied on him abusing his 'spiritual' authority as prophet.

Joseph Smith is another in a long line of religious con-men over the centuries--but he happened to occur in a time of westward expansion when his community could establish itself outside the country and grow strong.

It was the same strategy that Jim Jones (People's Temple) and David Berg (Children of God, The Family) used. Didn't work so well for Jones, but did for Berg....his group is now world-wide and almost respectable, despite a horrific past of religious prostitution and pedophilia.

wives behind Emma's back and all— the real issue for me is that he said God told him to do it. It shows that Smith was either a manipulative opportunist or delusional.

I don't know that I believe in God anymore but if I did I couldn't believe in any God that would require polygamy of his 'children.'

If people want to marry and have sex with multiple people that's their. Who am I to say it's right or wrong? But to claim that plural marriage is a commandment of god and the order or heaven is lunacy IMO.

The underage thing is along the same lines to me. Using religious compulsion or preying on those who are not consenting adults yet is just not right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 11:06AM by badseed.

It's the actual exploitation of women and children and society that bothers me the most.

You can argue that consenting couples can do whatever they want; however, it is a fact that most of these societies are supported indirectly by the taxpayer. The first wife is the only legal wife, the rest are "single mothers" who collect welfare and get medical benefits from low income programs, state and federal benefits.

A societal structure that relies on entitlements is not successful. Most of these men do not support all these wives, they are on their own. And when you think about it, if the wives work, who takes care of all these kids? Exactly. The children who have a father who doesn't know their name or birthday off the top of his head also are cared for by one of their multiple mothers in a child-adult ratio that means they get minimal attention unless their own mother is a SAHM.

Now throw in the idea of women as property, reassignment of families, "giving" of virgins, arranged marriages as business deals, incest and forced marriage (rape) of young teens, the discarding of young males onto the streets (to be supported by society) and you do not have a working societal structure at all.

You have an expoitative, parasitical structure that serves the gratification of the ego and lust of powerful men. Just like it does in backward countries on the other side of the globe.

The laws we have in America represent the best ideas of how to run a civilized society where every person has an equal chance at the pursuit of happiness. No one could say that about polygamy.

Anagrammy

Rape by fraud is a legal theory which was not around back in Smith's day but it applies to what SMith did regardless of whether or not he would have been put in jail for it back then.

He convinced all those women to have sex with him by means of fraud, he was a rapist.

So if I were to summarize:

We respect that consenting adults will have a myriad of relationship arrangements. What we don't respect is that Joe disregarded the two operative words: CONSENTING, ADULTS.

1) he hid his dalliances from Emma and other husbands.
2) he manipulated females to do what they wouldn't normally agree to.
3) he preyed on minors who were not at all adults, nor ever really consenting.

What Joseph Smith did in Nauvoo was tantamount to rape. But that's not to say that the hypocrisy doesn't also bother me maddeningly.

1) They outright lie about Smith's well-documented extra-marital activity, and that he lied to his followers about it.

2) The hypocrisy is appalling among current Mormons. They tout themselves as all pro-family and NOT into polygamy, even anti-polygamy, and protecting the sanctity of marriage, but what are they doing to help and protect the victims of polygamy? What are they doing to stop it? What about all the "Lost Boys" all over SLC? What are they doing as a church to help these kids?

I think I have the answer. Not a god damned thing.

It's definately the dishonesty and hypocrisy that bothers me the most, on many levels. The lying to Emma Smith, the lying to the general church membership at the time, and the wider non-member population. The dishonest way it was presented even to believing Mormons at the time, and the way both men and women were forced into it by threats and blackmail. But also, come forward a century, and the hypocrisy around the teaching of it to current Mormons.

I don't have a problem with the concept of alternative familiy structures. (I don't think all family structures are equal, I just believe that nobody has the authority to prohibit them). If a man wishes to marry more than one women, and all parties are consenting, then that is their business, not the governments.

involving adults. The fact is that laws are made to reflect whatever society sees as acceptable or detrimental to it. If the public isn't willing to pay for something that's usually harmful, they do not have to make an effort to legitimize it. Most laws are not systematically prosecuted.

Look at laws against speeding. Just because some drivers can handle high speed driving doesn't mean society should legalize this often dangerous practice for everyone.

I don't want to get into a debate about the merits (or otherwise) or libertarian politics, but there is no such thing as "society", except as an aggregation of it's individuals. And seeing as we don't all consider the same things "acceptable" or "detrimental", it then comes down to (at best) a form of democracy, and at worst the whim of the ruling classes.

Now there is nothing wrong with democracy when choosing those we wish to represent us in some form of government, but why should 49% of a population be denied the opportunity to participate in a behaviour that 51% disapprove of, if that behaviour does not impead on anybody elses liberty or interfere in any way with their own lives?

As if we need more laws or no one will be able to have sex with more than one person.

Or more laws to protect speeders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 09:00AM by Cheryl.

Doesn't "bother" me. It's a belief and system of familial relationships that is still in evidence today in many different areas. The practice is ancient.

People practice all kinds of ideas in secret. It's just part of human nature.

Since I am male, polygamy bothered me not at all. Now that I am out I would say that polygamy is the BS that crowns the bs.

It all bothers me: the polygamy, the manipulations JS did to get women--and girls!!!--to have sex with him, the lies and cover-ups then and now. All of it collapsed this Morg house of cards for me.

It was neither. The part that bothered me the most was polyandry.

I do not see any defensible reason for such a disgusting display of hypocracy. How the hell does one Marry other men's wives, and then when JS dies, at least one if not more, marries Brigham Young. There is nothing to defend this action.

It is absurd to think that these men were marrying other men's wives, but now they are sealing themselves to each others wives again? That don't sound like heaven, rather, it sounds like something out of a sick porn movie.

The fact that I spent 40 years of my life following this BS and not being given a lesson of any kind or some leadership approved statement on the matter really makes me pist.

I have a lot more respect for Kody Brown (Sister Wives) then I have for TSCC. Why? Because Kody and his wives are living what they really believe in. They believe that polygamy came from God and are proud of it, They do not keep it secret.

TSCC pisses me off because they still believe in the doctrine of plural marriage but "Lie for the Lord" to cover it up. Sure, they love to preach about how they don't practice it anymore. But the doctrine of plural marriage is alive and well. Some of the GA's are sealed to more than one woman because their first wife has died.

So in a strange way, Kody Brown is not like Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith lied about everything he did and covered it up.

The ironic part of all this is that JS knew it was wrong, he was abusing his "powers" as prophet to hide his sins against girls, wives and women. The ugliest part (IMO) is that BY actually believed it was doctrine, idolized JS. No one could say the shit he said without believing it to be true.

Is there any evidence that JS liked to boys?

by Smith's own decree any one who was an adulter was not worthy to partake of the higher law of the new and everlasting convenant which was his BS cover for starting up with plural wives. Biblical law which Smith claimed to be emulating Also has such provisions.

Joe committed adultery when he screwed his baby sitter, Fanny Alger, so he was automatically DQ ed from polygamy from the start. of course, Joe also granted himself some grand exemption, something I dont have to do and will not do.
Its so far past time for the MORmONS to have
this issue jammed down their BS spouting throats so hard it shuts them up.

the first ammendment exists in this country
for the free expression of valid thoughts to promote civilization. not so ppl can express lies to make other ppl more foolish and susceptible to lies/idiocy, and further to steal from ppl by fraud, but thats exactly what MORmONISM does.

Every time a MORmON starts up with their LIES about how Joe Smith carried on to please god, it pisses on the right of free speech. They really should be horse whipped for it, but instead we err on the side for freedom & general tolerance, not on the side for demanding truth.

That which joe smith did has so little to do with free or consenting anything, it has to do with FRAUD, EXPLOITATION, EXTORTION & COERCION, EVIL. MORmONS are sick EVIL VILE POS for defending & promoting Smith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCN3AvH4JRg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqG5skfZcrE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8