F&T was always, "I know the church is true". "I know JS was a prophet". Why not, "I know Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and died for my sins" etc. ?

Brushing Christ under the Morg rug really screams CULT to me and I ignored the big red flags!

You were smart. Wish my daughter could have seen the difference. She couldn't and she was brought up in a Christ centered protestant church. Go figure. Can only hope she will come to her senses in the not too distant future...now she has a two yr. old - just the right age for the organization to begin to brainwash. It is killing me.

Plenty of people talked about jeebus on f&t meetings. Perhaps they weren't as blushingly gushing about him as some newly saved "mainstream" christian, but they do talk about him.

However, to answer your question, it is a cultural difference. It is not part of the group mentality to talk about la jota as much as other cultures. Mormonism values people fitting in and doing what other people do and there are more things to talk about in the more complex Mormon doctrine.

Also, I had no idea that not talking about old religious messiahs was a sign of some organization being a cult. I rarely talk about christ, does that make me a cultist?

Well, if Jesus is supposed to be YOUR messiah, it would be nice if he got top billing.

Excellent reply. It is The Church of JESUS CHRIST [their emphasis], not JS. ;-D

They really should change it to the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Pharisees.LOL. That would be more accurate

+1

I always thought the not talking about Jesus thing was because Jesus' importance is considerably reduced in Mo theology. After all, Jesus is merely our elder brother. He got to the finish line before we did, but we'll get there eventually.

And then there was that part about Joseph Smith doing more than anyone, save only Jesus, to save mankind. Jesus was a long time ago and no historical record of him survives. Joseph, on the other hand, definitely existed and his life is well documented. Besides, mos have living prophets and everyone knows a living prophet outranks a dead one.

Do you know who made that assertion about Joseph Smith? I've heard it, but don't know the author.

I think Mormons like to emphasis things that set them apart. Jesus is for all Christians and even Muslims, but only Mormons and their offshoots have JS, prophets, temples, etc. They want to be extra especially special.

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/128.15-18,22,24?lang=eng#14

But how are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances, baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, ordinations and sealing powers upon their heads, in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead, and redeem them that they may come forth in the first resurrection and be exalted to thrones of glory with them; and herein is the chain that binds the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, which fulfills the mission of Elijah. …

“The Saints have not too much time to save and redeem their dead, and gather together their living relatives, that they may be saved also, before the earth will be smitten, and the consumption decreed falls upon the world.

“I would advise all the Saints to go to with their might and gather together all their living relatives to [the temple], that they may be sealed and saved, that they may be prepared against the day that the destroying angel goes forth; and if the whole Church should go to with all their might to save their dead, seal their posterity, and gather their living friends, and spend none of their time in behalf of the world, they would hardly get through before night would come, when no man can work.”9

(9)History of the Church, 6:183–84; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Jan. 21, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff.


"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 289

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"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God.. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, ‘Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;’ if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 154

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"We often say, and you have heard the expression as it has already been referred to in this conference, that "as man now is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become." The only way man may become as God now is, is through fulfilling the laws of celestial marriage and the laws of the gospel, as I have just read to you the word of the Lord from the D&C. Can we afford to overlook such opportunities for exaltation? Temple marriage is not just another form of church wedding; it is a divine covenant with the Lord that if we are faithful to the end, we may become as God now is."

- Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, General Conference, October 1948
-------------------

So while Jesus Christ is the Son of God, we are too. We can progress to godhood which will put us equal to or technically above our Elder Brother Jesus Christ if we become gods. Since our ancestors cannot be made perfect without US, WE hold the keys to their salvation.

All of this is possible only because Joseph Smith brought it forth.

Oh, and how many times have we all seen Fast and Testimony meeting replace Easter, the holiest of Christian holidays, simply because Easter fell on the 1st Sunday of the month?

The real reason that the church de-emphasizes Christ is just a matter of priorities.

The Mo Christ is simply not the same Christ in mainstream Christian churches nor God and the Bible. If most Christians knew about the "becoming Gods" doctrine they would label it blasphemy. There is ONE God, Alpha and Omega according to most Christians.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 01:03AM by FreeRose.

Belief in Jesus is a given in a predominantly Christian culture, but the whole JS/BoM story is the issue in doubt. So that's what they harp on. "No, really, the LDS church is true, despite what others say. Repeat after me..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 07:04AM by Stray Mutt.

Mormonism was the only church I attended regularly, so without the comparison I never realized there was a shortage of Jesus talk. I was always aware of people talking about "the savior" and I remember a joke that the answer to every question in the primary manual was "happy" "sad" or "Jesus". Growing up, I could never understand the accusations that Mormons weren't Christian. Now I realize the accusation is "Mormons aren't REAL Christians, because they don't believe the right way." But I still don't understand all of these conversations about some sort of Jesus name dropping quota.

I agree with Pista. I had the same experience and still don't really get this accusation that TBMs don't talk about Jesus and that he's "de-emphasized." I talked about him when I was TBM and most of the people I knew did too. When I bore my testimony I always said something about Christ being my savior (and I said the other stuff too). So I think it's a matter of perspective. I think to a mainstream Christian it probably sounds like Mormons don't talk about him much because they do also talk about all the other Mormon prophets and leaders. But I don't think it's fair to say he is not talked about.

And I'll think it's a fair criticism when they pull "Christian" out of the dictionary. Until then, a word means what it means, regardless of differences in doctrine and dogma.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 08:55AM by Pista.

I feel for you, Pista. I don't like being the position of having to defend the church either, and you're absolutely right on. Mormons talk about jesus too much, if you ask me.

These arguments that mormons don't emphasize jesus enough never really pan out and when the christians get called out on it they always get reduced to "then what about Praise to the Man?"

It's grasping at straws. It's "Praise to the man who communed with JEHOVA. JESUS anointed that prophet and seer."

Why praise the man? Because he got to commune with Jehova.

Why is he special? Because he was anointed by Jesus.

The whole song is based on this dude being one of Jesus' chosen prophets. Without the Jesus part there is no praise to be given. He's just another dude.

It's these kinds of arguments that strengthen kolobian testimonies because they know for a fact that they are being purposefully misrepresented so they feel justified in not listening to anything else we have to say.

I wish the christians would just try to back up their own claims instead of constructing straw arguments about kolobianism in order to make themselves feel better.

Newsflash: NOBODY gets it right. And as long as baby jesus remains silent on the subject the kolobians have just as much right to say Jesus lives in the star system kolob as christians have of saying jesus is his own father and lives outside of space & time but somehow also lives in your hearts.

As for me and my house: we keep the car keys in the drawer by the microwave so we have no need of any supernatural cartoon characters.

I believe it is a sin to sing that song in church.

"Praise to the man"

They're grateful for his sacrifice, and they talk about the plan of salvation, but they really get off on Smith. "I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, and I know that the Book of Mormon is true." They do believe in Jesus. It could be argued that they think Jesus is a given, and they talk about Smith because that's what sets them apart and they're a proselytizing religion. But they shed tears about Smith. I don't see the same level of devotion to Jesus.

as per the controversy between BYU professor George Pace and Bruce R. McConkie.

From wikipedia:

McConkie criticism

In 1982, Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle in the LDS Church, presented a televised sermon at BYU that was interpreted as an attack on Pace's book, What It Means to Know Christ.[11] In his sermon, McConkie did not mention Pace or his book by name,[12] though he excerpted a quote which he called "plain sectarian nonsense", and warned against developing a special spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, apart from the Holy Ghost and God the Father.

McConkie felt this was a "gospel hobby" that could lead to "an unwholesome holier-than-thou attitude" or "despondence". McConkie said he didn't intend to "downgrade" Jesus, but to teach true doctrine and warn his audience.[13] McConkie later claimed he wasn't singling out or specifically thinking of Pace, but was warning against a general trend of "extreme behavior" of born-again type experiences.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Pace

Bruce R. just couldn't brook what he perceived as competition. He also had an on-going feud with Eugene England, from whom I had a class and who was an advisor in a club I was part of. Very smart and good man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 03:19PM by robertb.

MORmONS dont say it but they are tired of waiting for Jesus to come back, so to get one step closer to an atmosphere like having a messiah around they conjured up some prophets & apostles however bogus to try to help make themselves feel better about the agonizing absence of a returning messiah. The MORmON prophet is the surrogate/ substitute messiah in the mean time.

One day the prophet will have a revelation that Joseph Smith was the Christ reincarnated once again. Of course, Mormons would laugh that off, but it wouldn't surprise ME.

They'd find scriptual evidence... they will write scriptual evidence... failing those two, they will edit the Book of Mormon.

I recall in the Gospel Doctrine class I was teaching which was the catalyst for my leaving Mormonism I asked this very question. "Why, if we are Christ's one true church, do we not talk about Jesus more like other churches?" I recall one response particularly. "Other churches talk about him a lot because that's all they've got. We have prophets, genealogy, welfare farms......"

Jesus - and trying to be like him - is the main pillar of other churches. Mormonism has other things going on. They've added to the simple concept of "follow Jesus" with Joseph Smith, Fast and Testimony, Saving the Dead, Temple Work, Converting the Masses, Avoiding the Appearance of Evil and a number of other Gods. It's not that Mormons don't worship Jesus or talk about Jesus. He may even be the most important thing they worship. It's just that they have other Gods they worship as well. Jesus is the spokesmodel for the organization to make them seem Christian to others but he's not the only thing playing at Mormon Blockbuster.

Yes, they believe in Christ. He just often gets lost in all of the 'noise' of talking about latter day prophets, tithing, temples, geneaology, etc.

FreeRose posts: “F&T was always, "I know the church is true". "I know JS was a prophet". Why not, "I know Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and died for my sins" etc. ?

Brushing Christ under the Morg rug really screams CULT to me and I ignored the big red flags!”

=============================================

All that Jesus stuff is a given. Most grew up with Christmas and Easter; nothing special about stating one’s “testimony” of Hey-Zeus--all that would elicit would be a lot of silent “duhs.” No, no, what shouts CULT is their never ending need to regurgitate their “knowledge” regarding the ta-rooth of Joseph Smith, the BoM and whichever stooge is currently heading THEEE chruch.

Yeah, we only have the Trinity to worship. I understand that Catholics pray to saints, which the protestants don't do. Are there any Catholic hymns that are directed to saints? All of our hymns are directed to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It would make me very uncomfortable to direct my worship to any god, man, entity, being, that wasn't the Big Three.

To me it seems that LDS thought emphasizes obedience to representatives of Jesus. This way there is more control over what that means. There is more power to control thoughts and behavior. This is the nature of any totalitarian authority society.

Getting baptized, being, endowed, paying tithing, participating in assigned roles are identified with pleasing Jesus. Thinking outside of these expectations is equated with disrespecting Jesus who represents someone who apparently saved your bacon. The intended psychological relationship to the church is unapologetically framed as king and servants.

The bible says that Jesus Christ is the head of the church.

Mormons say that the bible isn't complete.

So the church sweeps Jesus under the rug in order that the bigwigs become the head of the church and bypass Jesus.

In fact, Catholics do not "pray" to saints--they seek their intercession with the Almighty (sez this 55-year Catholic who is now a UU).

Case in point: Holy Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour our death, Amen.

That's a prayer, dude, no getting around it, whether they're seen as the middlemen/women or not. Google "prayer to saint..." and google fills in the rest with all kinds of names like jude, joseph, rita (really? Saint Rita?), etc.

Pitiful try, no cigar.